Over on Dungeon Craft Professor DM goes through some good points about how popular Baldur's gate is and how it could actually damage the VTT.    Interesting enough, apparently it was licensed 6 years ago which is around when 5e came out but before it was super popular, before Stranger Things and Critical Roll, which means the terms are actually reasonable and how WOTC might have screwed up on the licensing (screwing up is a common theme with WOTC).

Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/BQbl47Fr52A

I don't expect this will convince Hasbro execs to change their minds. Microsoft is already buying Activision for that mobile game money, not for any of the other IPs they own like Call of Duty, Overwatch, WarCraft, StarCraft, etc.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 03:00:02 PM
I don't expect this will convince Hasbro execs to change their minds. Microsoft is already buying Activision for that mobile game money, not for any of the other IPs they own like Call of Duty, Overwatch, WarCraft, StarCraft, etc.

Of course not.  Those in charge at Hasbro are idiots.  I am against Microsoft buying Activision because I know they will make the games exclusive only to their crappy system and lets face it, Microsoft has a history of anti-competitive behavior. 

I boxed up all my 5e books earlier this year and shipped them back to WOTC asking for a refund.  Now I just watch because I find Rube Goldberg suicides fascinating. 

As soon as I finish running my 5e game I am going to sell off all of the books and get them out of my collection.   With Old School Essentials and the other games in the OSR, I am set for fantasy. 

Real Fantasy not the video game fantasy that is 5e

I said this a long time ago:

Hasbro is fooling themselves if they think they can make D&D fully digital as "TTRPG"... because it's not elevating TTRPG's, but it's entering the arena of PCgaming which has been mastering the art of emulating D&D onscreen for *decades* in various forms and genres of PCgaming. WotC is not bringing *anything* new to the table.

AT BEST they're creating a walled off garden to play a shitty multi-player tactical game locking TTRPG players out of any creative use of their characters, and overburdening the tactical aspect of the game with "features" that won't work well - because WotC doesn't have the experience to pull it off.

It's like they're walking backwards into an entirely different arena believing they'll pied-piper all the brand loyalists into their garden. It will definitely bring in new players and brand-ballhuggers, but it will effectively relegate TTRPG's back to us. And a *lot* of people will balk. Videogames aren't TTRPG's though they draw inspiration from one another. And WotC will be competing against all other videogame companies - not TTRPG companies.

This is a GOOD THING.

I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on August 23, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.

It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.

The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM

Quote from: SmallMountaineer on August 23, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.

It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.

The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.

I quite agree that the VTT is going to fail largely for just the reasons you've outlined, but that has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate 3 and everything to do with players being off-put by the expense and bother of playing a half-assed video game. The VTT is the issue, not the actual video game.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.

And lest folks forget we are also still in the midst of a 2nd golden age of boardgames and wargames. While the quality of the games definitely helped it is also fueled by people's desire to get together face to face and fiddle with physical components. Parallel to that are the online implementations of these boardgames which act more as an extension of face-to-face play rather than a substitute or competitor.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.

And there is nothing we haven't seen for this new VTT "experience" than what has already been tried for Bioware's Neverwinter Nights.

yep. It's just a blindness from ex-Microsoft execs that don't actually engage with the hobby in any meaningful fashion (as we'd see it) and they're looking at it from a "How can we milk money from this IP?" - and applying it as they would to any other brand. Microtransactions, game-loops built to keep low-level psychological engagement for people that don't really want to be challenged for entertainment. Everything will be heavily monetized and people that engage in it will be conditioned to like it.

I'm not saying this is bad - this literally what all videogames do - but there is a rebellion going on in this frame. And the beancounters, who don't actually game, don't see it. Hasbro certainly doesn't see it. And they're taking their D&D brand straight into the inferno believing all the 5e fans will blindly go and *stay* there with them.

Good luck with that! heh

Quote from: estar on August 23, 2023, 12:37:30 PM

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.

And lest folks forget we are also still in the midst of a 2nd golden age of boardgames and wargames. While the quality of the games definitely helped it is also fueled by people's desire to get together face to face and fiddle with physical components. Parallel to that are the online implementations of these boardgames which act more as an extension of face-to-face play rather than a substitute or competitor.

EXACTLY. And it's about to get *more* Golden once WotC' failed expedition takes off to stars. Because we already know... the Stars are Right.

I'm not buying it.

There's a very simple answer to the question posed - "Why would a player introduced through Baldur's Gate play the virtual tabletop?" Easy. The same reason players introduced through Neverwinter Nights played what passed for virtual tabletop back in the early 2000s (digital whiteboard and a chatroom). You get to play Baldur's Gate 3 with different characters, different plot, and different encounters. The video game to tabletop game pipeline is a real thing. I've been watching it for over twenty years.

Unlike the people who were attracted to the game due to Stranger Things and Critical Role, these are people who play games. They're also more familiar with filesharing protocols than the average internet user. Furthermore, the complete rules for both 3E and 5E are free online in various SRDs. The upcoming WotC VTT isn't competing with Baldur's Gate 3, it's competing with Roll20, Foundry, and Fantasy Grounds. The incoming BG3 players are going to want supplements, and they're not looking for high school prom or Starbucks adventures. If WotC can supply maps and prebuilt encounters, and make it convenient enough that it's not worth a new player's time to fly the skull-and-crossbones and manually set up Roll20, they're golden.

Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 10:49:17 AM
I said this a long time ago:

Hasbro is fooling themselves if they think they can make D&D fully digital as "TTRPG"... because it's not elevating TTRPG's, but it's entering the arena of PCgaming which has been mastering the art of emulating D&D onscreen for *decades* in various forms and genres of PCgaming. WotC is not bringing *anything* new to the table.

AT BEST they're creating a walled off garden to play a shitty multi-player tactical game locking TTRPG players out of any creative use of their characters, and overburdening the tactical aspect of the game with "features" that won't work well - because WotC doesn't have the experience to pull it off.

It's like they're walking backwards into an entirely different arena believing they'll pied-piper all the brand loyalists into their garden. It will definitely bring in new players and brand-ballhuggers, but it will effectively relegate TTRPG's back to us. And a *lot* of people will balk. Videogames aren't TTRPG's though they draw inspiration from one another. And WotC will be competing against all other videogame companies - not TTRPG companies.

This is a GOOD THING.

Depends on how robust the VTT is when it comes out. And how it is priced. And if it intigrates with Beyond or not.

The main things it needs to do is allow DMs to recreate dungeons as well as possible. And it needs a first person walk around mode. Get thise nailed down and they are a good ways to doing things right.

Odds are they will not.

Right now there are several competitors.

Another thing to consider is that WotC already has a D&D MMO, two actually if the other is still up. Neverwinter is barely D&D though. But years ago they dropped the Forge, a tool for making your own adventures in the MMO and sharing them.

THAT is something FRUA had and the VTT needs.