Over on Dungeon Craft Professor DM goes through some good points about how popular Baldur's gate is and how it could actually damage the VTT. Interesting enough, apparently it was licensed 6 years ago which is around when 5e came out but before it was super popular, before Stranger Things and Critical Roll, which means the terms are actually reasonable and how WOTC might have screwed up on the licensing (screwing up is a common theme with WOTC).
Here is the video:
https://youtu.be/BQbl47Fr52A
I don't expect this will convince Hasbro execs to change their minds. Microsoft is already buying Activision for that mobile game money, not for any of the other IPs they own like Call of Duty, Overwatch, WarCraft, StarCraft, etc.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2023, 03:00:02 PM
I don't expect this will convince Hasbro execs to change their minds. Microsoft is already buying Activision for that mobile game money, not for any of the other IPs they own like Call of Duty, Overwatch, WarCraft, StarCraft, etc.
Of course not. Those in charge at Hasbro are idiots. I am against Microsoft buying Activision because I know they will make the games exclusive only to their crappy system and lets face it, Microsoft has a history of anti-competitive behavior.
I boxed up all my 5e books earlier this year and shipped them back to WOTC asking for a refund. Now I just watch because I find Rube Goldberg suicides fascinating.
As soon as I finish running my 5e game I am going to sell off all of the books and get them out of my collection. With Old School Essentials and the other games in the OSR, I am set for fantasy.
Real Fantasy not the video game fantasy that is 5e
I said this a long time ago:
Hasbro is fooling themselves if they think they can make D&D fully digital as "TTRPG"... because it's not elevating TTRPG's, but it's entering the arena of PCgaming which has been mastering the art of emulating D&D onscreen for *decades* in various forms and genres of PCgaming. WotC is not bringing *anything* new to the table.
AT BEST they're creating a walled off garden to play a shitty multi-player tactical game locking TTRPG players out of any creative use of their characters, and overburdening the tactical aspect of the game with "features" that won't work well - because WotC doesn't have the experience to pull it off.
It's like they're walking backwards into an entirely different arena believing they'll pied-piper all the brand loyalists into their garden. It will definitely bring in new players and brand-ballhuggers, but it will effectively relegate TTRPG's back to us. And a *lot* of people will balk. Videogames aren't TTRPG's though they draw inspiration from one another. And WotC will be competing against all other videogame companies - not TTRPG companies.
This is a GOOD THING.
I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on August 23, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.
It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on August 23, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I don't think Baldur's Gate 3 will move the needle one way or another. 99% of Baldur's Gate's players know about the pen-and-paper origins of the brand, and the vast majority of them will have already decided if they're interested in a tabletop experience. Likewise, nobody is going to stop playing the game (or avoid the virtual gimmick) just because they really like the video game.
It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.
I quite agree that the VTT is going to fail largely for just the reasons you've outlined, but that has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate 3 and everything to do with players being off-put by the expense and bother of playing a half-assed video game. The VTT is the issue, not the actual video game.
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.
And lest folks forget we are also still in the midst of a 2nd golden age of boardgames and wargames. While the quality of the games definitely helped it is also fueled by people's desire to get together face to face and fiddle with physical components. Parallel to that are the online implementations of these boardgames which act more as an extension of face-to-face play rather than a substitute or competitor.
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
It doesn't have to move the needle. It doesn't have to do anything. It's WotC that has to provide an "experience" in their VTT that players (and GM's) will not conclude they can have better "D&D Experiences" in actual videogames that WotC seems to be moving towards.
And there is nothing we haven't seen for this new VTT "experience" than what has already been tried for Bioware's Neverwinter Nights.
yep. It's just a blindness from ex-Microsoft execs that don't actually engage with the hobby in any meaningful fashion (as we'd see it) and they're looking at it from a "How can we milk money from this IP?" - and applying it as they would to any other brand. Microtransactions, game-loops built to keep low-level psychological engagement for people that don't really want to be challenged for entertainment. Everything will be heavily monetized and people that engage in it will be conditioned to like it.
I'm not saying this is bad - this literally what all videogames do - but there is a rebellion going on in this frame. And the beancounters, who don't actually game, don't see it. Hasbro certainly doesn't see it. And they're taking their D&D brand straight into the inferno believing all the 5e fans will blindly go and *stay* there with them.
Good luck with that! heh
Quote from: estar on August 23, 2023, 12:37:30 PM
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 12:20:50 PM
The majority of TTRPG's gamers do not find videogames give them the same experience as they find in TTRPG's... if that were the case TTRPG's wouldn't exist. What we're seeing is the largest *by far* brand in TTRPG's moving into the videogame space... and expecting to hold those TTRPG's brand-consumers in this new form.
And lest folks forget we are also still in the midst of a 2nd golden age of boardgames and wargames. While the quality of the games definitely helped it is also fueled by people's desire to get together face to face and fiddle with physical components. Parallel to that are the online implementations of these boardgames which act more as an extension of face-to-face play rather than a substitute or competitor.
EXACTLY. And it's about to get *more* Golden once WotC' failed expedition takes off to stars. Because we already know... the Stars are Right.
I'm not buying it.
There's a very simple answer to the question posed - "Why would a player introduced through Baldur's Gate play the virtual tabletop?" Easy. The same reason players introduced through Neverwinter Nights played what passed for virtual tabletop back in the early 2000s (digital whiteboard and a chatroom). You get to play Baldur's Gate 3 with different characters, different plot, and different encounters. The video game to tabletop game pipeline is a real thing. I've been watching it for over twenty years.
Unlike the people who were attracted to the game due to Stranger Things and Critical Role, these are people who play games. They're also more familiar with filesharing protocols than the average internet user. Furthermore, the complete rules for both 3E and 5E are free online in various SRDs. The upcoming WotC VTT isn't competing with Baldur's Gate 3, it's competing with Roll20, Foundry, and Fantasy Grounds. The incoming BG3 players are going to want supplements, and they're not looking for high school prom or Starbucks adventures. If WotC can supply maps and prebuilt encounters, and make it convenient enough that it's not worth a new player's time to fly the skull-and-crossbones and manually set up Roll20, they're golden.
Quote from: tenbones on August 23, 2023, 10:49:17 AM
I said this a long time ago:
Hasbro is fooling themselves if they think they can make D&D fully digital as "TTRPG"... because it's not elevating TTRPG's, but it's entering the arena of PCgaming which has been mastering the art of emulating D&D onscreen for *decades* in various forms and genres of PCgaming. WotC is not bringing *anything* new to the table.
AT BEST they're creating a walled off garden to play a shitty multi-player tactical game locking TTRPG players out of any creative use of their characters, and overburdening the tactical aspect of the game with "features" that won't work well - because WotC doesn't have the experience to pull it off.
It's like they're walking backwards into an entirely different arena believing they'll pied-piper all the brand loyalists into their garden. It will definitely bring in new players and brand-ballhuggers, but it will effectively relegate TTRPG's back to us. And a *lot* of people will balk. Videogames aren't TTRPG's though they draw inspiration from one another. And WotC will be competing against all other videogame companies - not TTRPG companies.
This is a GOOD THING.
Depends on how robust the VTT is when it comes out. And how it is priced. And if it intigrates with Beyond or not.
The main things it needs to do is allow DMs to recreate dungeons as well as possible. And it needs a first person walk around mode. Get thise nailed down and they are a good ways to doing things right.
Odds are they will not.
Right now there are several competitors.
Another thing to consider is that WotC already has a D&D MMO, two actually if the other is still up. Neverwinter is barely D&D though. But years ago they dropped the Forge, a tool for making your own adventures in the MMO and sharing them.
THAT is something FRUA had and the VTT needs.
I would not be surprised if the VTT is ultimately a dead project and #Hasbro will simply pivot to licensing like they have with every other franchise they own when it comes to RPGs. It only makes sense to cut out the middle man if you make more money by doing so.
The thing to consider with this is that TTRPGs are by their nature infinite. And a Western Erotic Game video game like Baldur's Gate 3 is inherently finite and limited. Whilst BG3 has stellar production values for all it's graphic sex scenes gameplay, People are going to get bored by it. Especially as they realize how rushed and undercooked Act 2 onwards is. Whereas a well produced and well funded official VTT for DnD could do really well. Especially if it has a form of AI GM. Meaning all those Critical Role secondaries looking for a GM instead of actually learning to GM themselves will finally be able to play.
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2023, 10:32:31 AM
The thing to consider with this is that TTRPGs are by their nature infinite. And a Western Erotic Game video game like Baldur's Gate 3 is inherently finite and limited. Whilst BG3 has stellar production values for all it's graphic sex scenes gameplay, People are going to get bored by it.
True. Look at Skyrim. For a few days in 2011 it was all the rage but after that it was soon forgotten..
Quote
Especially as they realize how rushed and undercooked Act 2 onwards is.
This doesn't explain all those videos, clips and social media posts about "having beaten the game ten times but I'm still not sure I saw everything" - but whatever.
Quote
Whereas a well produced and well funded official VTT for DnD could do really well. Especially if it has a form of AI GM.
This is the very crux of the problem. First, BG3 already has mods. A lot of them. Larian confirmed that it is fully moddable, but that they are not planning to introduce a GM mode.
However, in the same article, Larian says that modders
could create a GM mode. It would require hard work, a dedicated team, modders with specific technical knowledge, time... but it can be done. Larian, simply, wants to devote the time and effort needed for it to other things they feel being more important.
BG3, however, was born over a long period and created by a self-sustaining studio that had already proved itself by creating Beyond Divinity 1 & 2. What experience WotC has in the same field? Nothing proven.
So, some people are starting to wonder: Wait a minute... If WotC had managed to revoke the OGL, a GM mod for BG3 - or a VTT based on a licensed BG3's engine, would have become illegal. It was in the wording. Is it possible that WotC was aware of the potential of BG3 (and maybe other upcoming games) and tried to block forever any form of D&D VTT not controlled by them? Inquiring mind want to know...
I posted this video elsewhere, but I'll repost it here. It is an analysis by The Rules Lawyer on these very points. For sure, he makes an interesting case.
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want. They can go to the game stores and tell them no. They can go to Nexxus Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit. The tool would most likely be based on DOS:2, its not that good and no you aren't going to want that as a VTT.
The more programmed the VTT is the worse it is for flexibility. The best D&D Game I ran was D&D Beyond and Dungeonfog. I dropped D&D Beyond finally due to the OGL.
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
To repost from another thread:
In my opinion:
A BG3 "GM mode" is not competition for D&D's VTT.
The One VTT is a
one-stop shop linked to D&D beyond that will have all future AP's and adventure modules plug-and-play - with all the little 'optional' cosmetic transactions for PC's ready to go...
The overwhelming majority of GM's are just too damn lazy to roll their own on some BG3 "GM mode", and will go with the option that gets them playing the new hotness adventure path from Wotzi with the least resistance.
Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want. They can go to the game stores and tell them no. They can go to Nexxus Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.
...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.
Second: just imagine Hasbro attempting to shut down mods for BG3. I think that even the place where they work would be razed to the ground. It would be "let's revoke the OGL!" squared, as the gamers would spot the real intention
immediately. TikTok, BTW, will be full of videos showing Paizo's employers committing auto-erotic practices in the open, amid people applauding.
Third: Hasbro is making money from BG3. Shutting down the modding scene would be instant monetary suicide. There is a reason as why Bethesda is still selling Skyrim after 12 years.
Fourth: I license BG3
engine (property of Larian) and do what the OGL permits me to do. Hasbro's "evil move" would be...? Nothing. They could act legally had the revocation of the OGL worked - but they failed.
From the draft of the VTT policy that ended up nuked:
"What isn't permitted are features that don't replicate your dining room table storytelling. If you replace your imagination with an animation of the Magic Missile streaking across the board to strike your target, or your VTT integrates our content into an NFT, that's not the tabletop experience. That's more like a video game."
And then they proceeded to show
their animation of a Magic Missile,
the only one permitted - your imagination be damned (at 4:11):
Lo?!
This is why people now are starting to notice how people can create their own VTTs starting with proven (and already published) engines: because, thinking back, Hasbro tried to ban this before the cat was out of the bag via a stunt - and they "rolled 1".
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want. They can go to the game stores and tell them no. They can go to Nexxus Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.
...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.
Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files
even if it is for non-commercial use.. I've worked on a couple of projects that got "Foxed," and non-commercial intent is irrelevant (the standard is simply "might affect the viability or sales of products from that IP"; which is a bar so low an ant could walk over it). Unless Larian has coded the whole game in plain text files (or releases the source code in the public domain), you can only modify or add to the game files using any data you can reverse engineer without breaking any encryption or copy protection. Good luck with that...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 25, 2023, 07:58:29 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want. They can go to the game stores and tell them no. They can go to Nexxus Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.
...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.
Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about.
Thank you for providing an example of that in the following paragraph.
Quote
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files even if it is for non-commercial use..
First, a mod doesn't do that. A mod that alters the source code would be illegal, I agree, and I remember a case where it happened: years ago for Falcon 4.0. A mod that uses copyrighted material
may miff the copyright holder - however, we have ton of mods that turn let's say, Medieval: Total War II into The Lord of the Rings (even using material from the Peter Jackson's movies), or Crusader Kings 2 into Game of Thrones, since forever, and they are still publishing more. Not to mention how "going against people who published their D&D creation for free on the internet" was one of those things that helped to sink TSR.
But, second, even if the above is made irrelevant the very moment I respect the OGL, I'm modding BG3,
which is Larian's, not WotC. So, Larian already said yes, the contents are under OGL... What legal whines remain to WotC? None.
I don't understand why you are repeatedly missing the obvious: if a simple legal action was
already enough to stop BG3 to become a VTT, why to even add the foundation needed for such an action in a
new version of the OGL? That's what gave Hasbro's game away.
As has been pointed out before, the main problem that BG3 poses for WotC is that it greatly raises the bar of what players (and especially new players) will expect of a D&D VTT. Even if WotC meets these expectations by 2026 or so, the standard will again have shifted by then. WotC will continuously have to try to catch up and it will probably fail at creating a truly state-of-the-art system.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 25, 2023, 07:58:29 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM
Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing. I don't see it replacing D&D. I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly. Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.
The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.
I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.
The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.
Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want. They can go to the game stores and tell them no. They can go to Nexxus Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.
...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.
Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files even if it is for non-commercial use.. I've worked on a couple of projects that got "Foxed," and non-commercial intent is irrelevant (the standard is simply "might affect the viability or sales of products from that IP"; which is a bar so low an ant could walk over it). Unless Larian has coded the whole game in plain text files (or releases the source code in the public domain), you can only modify or add to the game files using any data you can reverse engineer without breaking any encryption or copy protection. Good luck with that...
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.
You need a victim for there to be a crime.
I've not seen any rush by law enforcement to come down on past modding communities either.
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.
Apparently, you missed
watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... ::)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool
Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):
"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.[Mods already exists, BTW]
Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see
one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").
So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".
Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 26, 2023, 04:47:42 AM
As has been pointed out before, the main problem that BG3 poses for WotC is that it greatly raises the bar of what players (and especially new players) will expect of a D&D VTT. Even if WotC meets these expectations by 2026 or so, the standard will again have shifted by then. WotC will continuously have to try to catch up and it will probably fail at creating a truly state-of-the-art system.
Agreed. This is the real point of Dungeon Master's video. BG3 appears to be so much better than Hasbro's VTT will be, that any idea of luring video gamers to their new VTT is highly questionable, and we already know that a portion of TTRPG players who prioritize roleplaying over pure combat will not embrace Hasbro's VTT. The Dungeon Master's further point is that BG3 is so good at representing the video-game version of actual D&D, that many current D&D players who might have joined the VTT may say, "I will just split my time between BG3, etc., and TTRPGs, and forego paying $10+ per month for Hasbro's VTT."
No one is saying that Hasbro's VTT will not have a ton of players and make some money. The question is whether the VTT will make the amazing money that these Microsoft executives have promised Hasbro shareholders, and that the VTT represent this new paradigm shift that they blather on about. Corporate politics and strategies being what they are, if this VTT venture does not double WOTC's D&D revenues, it will be considered a failure and there will be a purge of current leadership, and we might even see the VTT experiment canned.
Quote from: Reckall on August 26, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.
Apparently, you missed watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... ::)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool
Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):
"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.
[Mods already exists, BTW]
Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.
As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.
EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").
So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".
Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.
I don't see where you think I missed something. I was agreeing with you. And saying that the Copyright laws need a victim for them to be enforced. Larian has supported modding their games so they wouldn't be going after people for modding (which is what Erikruatha was claiming because it would violate copyright laws to mod it).
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 05:42:40 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 26, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.
Apparently, you missed watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... ::)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool
Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):
"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.
[Mods already exists, BTW]
Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.
As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.
EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").
So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".
Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.
I don't see where you think I missed something. I was agreeing with you. And saying that the Copyright laws need a victim for them to be enforced. Larian has supported modding their games so they wouldn't be going after people for modding (which is what Erikruatha was claiming because it would violate copyright laws to mod it).
Sorry, I misquoted. :-[ I was answering to Erikruatha.
Quote from: Reckall on August 26, 2023, 08:07:04 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 05:42:40 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 26, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.
Apparently, you missed watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... ::)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool
Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):
"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.
[Mods already exists, BTW]
Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.
As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.
EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").
So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".
Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.
I don't see where you think I missed something. I was agreeing with you. And saying that the Copyright laws need a victim for them to be enforced. Larian has supported modding their games so they wouldn't be going after people for modding (which is what Erikruatha was claiming because it would violate copyright laws to mod it).
Sorry, I misquoted. :-[ I was answering to Erikruatha.
All good, my friend.
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2023, 10:32:31 AMMeaning all those Critical Role secondaries looking for a GM instead of actually learning to GM themselves will finally be able to play.
Off topic. But not everyone is cut out to DM and some people never should have been allowed to DM.
Quote from: Omega on August 28, 2023, 09:12:27 AM
Off topic. But not everyone is cut out to DM and some people never should have been allowed to DM.
Very true but there is no way to stop this.
Those people either have to A) Live with the DM who isn't cut out to run the game or B) All quit and find a better game.
If the Bad DM cannot find players, then and only then will they stop running games and maybe get the hint.
Maybe.
Hm.
Remember when WoTC presented the DDi and their VTT beta that crashed and burned? Then about a decade later rolled out the 'new and improved' VTT?
Remember when WoTC told everybody we all should be one big happy gaming community? Then they tried to literally backstab the entire community with a revised OGL?
Remember when WoTC said they didn't want VTT animations for their upcoming game because it would make the game 'too much like a video game'? Then at the D&D Direct event WoTC unveils their upcoming game will indeed have animations?
Remember when Hasbro got super interested in AI then backpedaled and swore AI won't get into the new VTT?
... it will. WoTC's gotten so predictable: whatever they say, just expect the opposite. Easy peasy.
They aren't making a video game. But they also aren't making a VTT. This thing looks to be some kind of hybrid: a video game that gives you all the "narrative versatility" of a tabletop rpg session. I mean if they can pull it off [and it's the biggest IF of fkn ifs] they'd have created a monster that could terrorize the entire industry. A virtual tabletop rpg that offers meaningful choices AND plays like a AAA video game?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/yhRnl31SmMec/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952590yfqheafn8x4we5qi0pelu5t0gx8rskkvs7rv4&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quote from: GhostNinja on August 22, 2023, 01:57:06 PM
Over on Dungeon Craft Professor DM goes through some good points about how popular Baldur's gate is and how it could actually damage the VTT. Interesting enough, apparently it was licensed 6 years ago which is around when 5e came out but before it was super popular, before Stranger Things and Critical Roll, which means the terms are actually reasonable and how WOTC might have screwed up on the licensing (screwing up is a common theme with WOTC).
Here is the video:
https://youtu.be/BQbl47Fr52A
Critical Role came out in March of 2015, over two years before this license deal. Community and Big Bang Theory had already had their D&D episodes. D&D was already 3 years into it's run and was topping Amazon Sales Ranks. There is a tracking of those sales ranks going back to the beginning over on ENWorld and around when this license deal was made it 5e was already HUGE.
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2023, 02:04:22 AM
Hm.
Remember when WoTC presented the DDi and their VTT beta that crashed and burned? Then about a decade later rolled out the 'new and improved' VTT?
Remember when WoTC told everybody we all should be one big happy gaming community? Then they tried to literally backstab the entire community with a revised OGL?
Remember when WoTC said they didn't want VTT animations for their upcoming game because it would make the game 'too much like a video game'? Then at the D&D Direct event WoTC unveils their upcoming game will indeed have animations?
Remember when Hasbro got super interested in AI then backpedaled and swore AI won't get into the new VTT?
... it will. WoTC's gotten so predictable: whatever they say, just expect the opposite. Easy peasy.
They aren't making a video game. But they also aren't making a VTT. This thing looks to be some kind of hybrid: a video game that gives you all the "narrative versatility" of a tabletop rpg session. I mean if they can pull it off [and it's the biggest IF of fkn ifs] they'd have created a monster that could terrorize the entire industry. A virtual tabletop rpg that offers meaningful choices AND plays like a AAA video game?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/yhRnl31SmMec/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952590yfqheafn8x4we5qi0pelu5t0gx8rskkvs7rv4&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quite possibly. The players (and DM's) will have to understand as they get all excited over this mode of play that the assets will be digital and paid for piecemeal and even after paying will not own anything. They will be paying to rent access to content. They will become like old school video game players, feverishly pumping quarters into games to play them but never getting to own the games. Pumping dollars endlessly to play D&D and never actually owning the assets isn't something that is going to appeal to quite a few long time players.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 29, 2023, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2023, 02:04:22 AM
Hm.
Remember when WoTC presented the DDi and their VTT beta that crashed and burned? Then about a decade later rolled out the 'new and improved' VTT?
Remember when WoTC told everybody we all should be one big happy gaming community? Then they tried to literally backstab the entire community with a revised OGL?
Remember when WoTC said they didn't want VTT animations for their upcoming game because it would make the game 'too much like a video game'? Then at the D&D Direct event WoTC unveils their upcoming game will indeed have animations?
Remember when Hasbro got super interested in AI then backpedaled and swore AI won't get into the new VTT?
... it will. WoTC's gotten so predictable: whatever they say, just expect the opposite. Easy peasy.
They aren't making a video game. But they also aren't making a VTT. This thing looks to be some kind of hybrid: a video game that gives you all the "narrative versatility" of a tabletop rpg session. I mean if they can pull it off [and it's the biggest IF of fkn ifs] they'd have created a monster that could terrorize the entire industry. A virtual tabletop rpg that offers meaningful choices AND plays like a AAA video game?
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/yhRnl31SmMec/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952590yfqheafn8x4we5qi0pelu5t0gx8rskkvs7rv4&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Quite possibly. The players (and DM's) will have to understand as they get all excited over this mode of play that the assets will be digital and paid for piecemeal and even after paying will not own anything. They will be paying to rent access to content. They will become like old school video game players, feverishly pumping quarters into games to play them but never getting to own the games. Pumping dollars endlessly to play D&D and never actually owning the assets isn't something that is going to appeal to quite a few long time players.
Uh ... or not? Nearly 90% of video game spending (2020) was/is on micro-transactions ;D ;D ;D
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/76546/microtransactions-make-up-88-92-6-billion-of-digital-game-spending/index.html (https://www.tweaktown.com/news/76546/microtransactions-make-up-88-92-6-billion-of-digital-game-spending/index.html)
This is why WoTC is saying they're "undermonetized": they know they're late to the dance and thus missing millions and millions of dollars on the most popular game in its segment.
Are TTRPG gamers that different? I'd argue "NO" looking at the ching gamers have dished out for the wide range of splat since AD&D 2e. WoTC's best selling book in 2021 (on Amazon) wasn't the DMG, PHB or MM - it was
Fizban's Treasury of Dragons which introduced new Dragonborn sub-races, new PC options, new dragon-themed sub-classes and of course new spells and feats.
Splat ;D And players are already lining up at D&D Beyond for whatever digital splatage they can buy there so they can brag about how BA their virtual Barbie is - YAY!!
That fat dragon's just gonna get fatter ;D