Quote from: estar;1120474What many in the OSR don't release even if you start off barebones if you run a campaign long enough you will wind up with a detailed system. One that result from how you rule on various situations. Most referee are fair about their rulings and a hallmark of fairness is being consistent. That given the same situation you will rule in the same way again. Given time this will probably not be as elaborate as GURPS or The Dark Eye but it will far more than what you started out with.

Have you ever read Fudge? It prescribes a philosophy that every table needs it's own set of rules and that rules should organically grow to meet the tables' needs.

Your "problem" here can be argued as a feature. Do I need a rule saying that every time I take damage underwater, I have to make an endurance check against the damage or spend a healing surge? I don't. The whole holding breathe mechanic doesn't interest me regardless of how well designed it might be, but it exists in D&D4e so the DM is hard pressed to remove the rule.

Now, I'm not against the idea of rules heavy systems and GURPS is one of the better ones, my problem is that they are shit. Which is understandable since no one makes them anymore and the ones that do are very established and feel like they can sell you 20+ books to justify why the "basic rules"run so slowly.

I have yet to read a well constructed rules heavy system that provides more detail (that I care about) than something like Savage Worlds. D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder have been the most detailed games I've played/read because the skill mechanics are whole tables rather than a bunch of mechanics that amount to "ask your GM what this can do" (aka GURPS, The Dark Eye, etc). I don't care if some splat book explains the skill better, you got to sell me the system in the merits of the core system (3e was still shit on skills because they were detailed but pointless)

GURPS has so many skills that might as well just be a name with some listed defaults for all the details they provide. The skill system doesn't justify it's complexity by allowing players to visualize what they can do nor let the GM off load those rulings to clear rules and the player reading them.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493Have you ever read Fudge? It prescribes a philosophy that every table needs it's own set of rules and that rules should organically grow to meet the tables' needs.

Perhaps I read some of Fudge.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493Your "problem" here can be argued as a feature. Do I need a rule saying that every time I take damage underwater, I have to make an endurance check against the damage or spend a healing surge? I don't.

Don't need it until you have an adventure that takes place underwater.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493The whole holding breathe mechanic doesn't interest me regardless of how well designed it might be, but it exists in D&D4e so the DM is hard pressed to remove the rule.

It trival to ignore rules like a holding breath mechanic. It a mechanic to resolve a specific situation and if the situation never comes up you don't need to refer to it. As for why it in the rulebook in the first place it is because it is the judgment of the author that enough referees run underwater adventure that it would be useful for them to include it.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493Now, I'm not against the idea of rules heavy systems and GURPS is one of the better ones, my problem is that they are shit. Which is understandable since no one makes them anymore and the ones that do are very established and feel like they can sell you 20+ books to justify why the "basic rules"run so slowly.

People make them is just with the technology of publishing today you are more apt to encounter system with less mechanics because that in the wheelhouse of a small group or individual publisher.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493I have yet to read a well constructed rules heavy system that provides more detail (that I care about) than something like Savage Worlds. D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder have been the most detailed games I've played/read because the skill mechanics are whole tables rather than a bunch of mechanics that amount to "ask your GM what this can do" (aka GURPS, The Dark Eye, etc). I don't care if some splat book explains the skill better, you got to sell me the system in the merits of the core system (3e was still shit on skills because they were detailed but pointless)

So explain the difference between this

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4104[/ATTACH]

versus

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4105[/ATTACH]

I have a copy of the Adventurers Edition and the skill section of it an GURPS track as far as tables and formulas go. Some skills are descriptive as the above some have more formal mechanics associated with them like a table. Of course both have vastly different naunces when it comes to figuring out the final set of rolls. However your criticism of GURPS lacking tables fall flat. I am familiar with most of the generics as well as genre specific but details systems. There are variation but for the most part they parallel either when using tables, formulas and description. Social skills tend to tie into a some type of reaction table, knowledge skills tend to be descriptive and so on.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493GURPS has so many skills

That is a criticism of GURPS, and the list problem is more than just skills.  But when you boil it down to a specific genre and setting, the lists narrow considerably. It is rare for people to use everything that GURPS has in its core within a campaign. You could but the setting would have to be something that would warrant that like Infinity World or Illuminati U.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120493The skill system doesn't justify it's complexity by allowing players to visualize what they can do nor let the GM off load those rulings to clear rules and the player reading them.

As my boat ing example illustrates it not any more complex there is just a lot of it as the GURPS Corebooks are meant to be a toolkit cover all genres and all settings. In addition the number of skills in GURPS is adjustable. It has a mechanic called Talents which allow GURPS referee to do something like this to the skill lists

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4106[/ATTACH]

If a GURPS referee think there are too many thief related skills they can make a thievery talent and use that in their place. The mechanics are on page 89.

Wrapping it up
The problem with GURPS has been one of presentation not design. Using the RAW I can present a streamlined Fantasy RPG that is 100% compatible with the core rule book that would look a lot like the Fudge material I linked too. I done some of that work for my own campaign and the most of the players I have prefer to use that over referencing the core rulebook. And they co-exist fine alongside the players who comfortable with the core rule book. I did this for GURPS 3rd edition and later for GURPS 4e which was easier due because of the revamped lists which now had things like Talents.

Quote from: estar;1120497"GURPS V Savage worlds stuff"

Exactly my problem. It's not more complex. GURPS has all these rules, but as a player I am equally clueless on how skills work as I am in Savage Worlds. As the GM, I am making the same call in both systems.

So why bother with the bulky rules heavy system? Savage Worlds is not comprehensive, but so far every example we have talked about, Savage Worlds has rules for in the core book. So what does something like GURPS get me? More detailed combat? More detailed character (that are detailed mainly by skill choice, the skill system being something I see as no better and only bulkier)?

For me a rules heavy system needs to provide clarity. As a GM, I need the system to make rulings for me and be designed such that players can just do something and confidently tell me the rules say they can (real nit-pick about The Dark Eye skill system is that it is very detailed but loaded with GM decisions, so it's effectively less useful to me than a rules light system like The Black Hack 2e). Where I need these rules the most is non-combat. Combat can only get so deep, I personally need systems where turns take less than 3 minutes. Once the round hits that critical time of "30 minutes between the player doing anything", it rapidly jumps to 45 minutes as people zone out and get on their phones. GURPS actually does a decent job of this by slicing turns up to 1 second increments. Unfortunately for GURPS, it doesn't give me anything I want (in the basic set). Crafting is vague, magic is OK but very limited, skill are vague, and the combat is at best OK. The advantages/disadvantages section is bloated (as in I would rather see more detail elsewhere).

Does Savage Worlds have crafting? Nope it's an action focused RPG. So when I am looking at something heavier like GURPS, I want to see non-action rules that are deep and they just are not there (in the basic set).

So obviously Gurps is beyond salvation. Long live 5e D&D!

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120501So what does something like GURPS get me?

There is little to no abstraction. The design of the system that if you can describe how something is done in life you can replicate it with GURPS. The core books cover a lot but not everything. It not a flaw it is an acknowledgement that life and fiction are are more vast then one or two books can cover. So the core books provide some details particularly for action like combat but a foundation for everything else. Leaving it to supplement to cover the details of those items.

For example GURPS Social Engineering. Social Engineering doesn't provide much in the way of new rules but expands on the more generalized social interaction rules in the core book. Mainly by discussing different situation and providing customized reaction tables to be used with each.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120501For me a rules heavy system needs to provide clarity.

Again GURPS strength is that if you describe the details from life or fiction you can find or build (like powers) the mechanics to match those details on a one for one basis.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1120501As a GM, I need the system to make rulings for me and be designed such that players can just o something and confidently tell me the rules say they can

Well GURPS is not going to do that. It is designed and presented as a toolkit of mechanics and build options to translate what you know about a setting or genre into a set of mechanics. After you got through assembling that then it works the way you described above. It is a design choice that has relagated GURPS to a niche today.

If you are not interested in doing first hand research then there are additional sourcebooks where various GURPS author have done the work. Like William Stoddard did in Social Engineering. These books are not just focused on mechanics but also discuss the topic its focuses.

There are two broad types of these sourcebooks, the first type are also toolikits like the core books but more narrowly focused, like GURPS Fantasy or GURPS Martial Arts. The second type are more ready to play like Dungeon Fantasty, Monster Hunter, or Action!

They are continuing to expand it, one of the upcoming release is about Realm Management. Knowing how similar works were presented like Mass Combat it will be applicable across various tech levels and genres.

How to save GURPS?  Sell it to someone who gives a shit about roleplaying games.  Other things:

1. Publish a few actual RPGs "Powered by GURPS" rather than an encyclopaedia of "Build Your Own RPG" options.
2. Make one of those a Lite RPG, barebones GURPS.  Get an IP for it or something, and put out a Starter Set box to rival the D&D and Warhammer ones.
3. For this setting specific starter set, create archetypes like old Shadowrun with a couple of options to pick.  Don't force people to wade through 178 pages of special abilities, color-coded with unique symbols.
4. Bring in some new blood. Let Rob and Dave write it.

Quote from: Omega;1120502So obviously Gurps is beyond salvation. Long live 5e D&D!

Bullshit, thats bullshit.

-Ed C.

GURPS is not a game. GURPS is a toolkit for building your own games.

Until you grasp that, GURPS will remain impenetrable and incomprehensible.

When you do grasp that, you have a choice: is GURPS worth the GM prep necessary to build a game out of the tools?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1120445That's pretty much the way it went down in most of the groups I played when rules didn't specify how to handle things. In my experience, when the rules don't specify how things work, people don't automatically come up with creative ways to handle them on the spot. They usually either rule that it's impossible (after much deliberation, grinding the game to a halt) or sorta gloss over it and assume that characters eventually manage to do something just to get play going again (also after much deliberation). Even when people come up with creative ways to handle stuff not specified in the rules, that often takes place after the session is completed (usually days later) and the GM has had time to think it over and come up with something.

And if there are rules for everything, including exactly how many inches your character can jump, then a lot of time is spent deciding how big the jump is (how many inches high is a mead hall bench? the gap across a chasm?) and looking up the rules. And then of course arguing over them.

So you either have no rules for things and just judge them and argue about them, or you have rules for things and have to look them up and then argue about them. That's just gamers.

In either case, what's needed is a GM who takes control of the game session and keeps things moving. Left to themselves, players will slow things down and argue over trivialities - like the players who in my Classic Traveller game argued about the possibility of the orbital mechanics of a system I'd taken from reality. It's the GM's job to make sure the session is fun, even against the wishes of the players.

Less defensiveness, more methods on how to save GURPS! :mad: People are trying to ask how can the system meet their disinterest in crunch halfway. Help them. (GURPS Lite was going to be my answer, by the way.)

Quote from: Koltar;1120514Bullshit, thats bullshit.

-Ed C.

Well yes we know thats what Gurps is allready.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1120599Less defensiveness, more methods on how to save GURPS! :mad: People are trying to ask how can the system meet their disinterest in crunch halfway. Help them. (GURPS Lite was going to be my answer, by the way.)

Several of us suggested Gurps Lite. I thought they used to have it as a free PDF. But seems not.

And I am proven wrong. Here it is on the SJG site.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

Quote from: Omega;1120623Several of us suggested Gurps Lite. I thought they used to have it as a free PDF. But seems not.

And I am proven wrong. Here it is on the SJG site.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

fantasy:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

sci-fi:
http://www.sjgames.com/transhumanspace/img/lite.pdf

modern:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf

Quote from: Omega;1120502So obviously Gurps is beyond salvation. Long live 5e D&D!

   I don't even play or own core GURPS (I've got a few sourcebooks, though), but I have to side with the partisans on this one. Resist the empty promises of the All-Devouring Rainbow Worm!

IMO GURPS Lite for 3e was better than Lite for 4e which comes across as incomplete. But overall I prefer 4th edition.

Anyway, GURPS isn't bullshit. It's Da Shit!:p

Edit: SJG is making baby steps towards the modern RPG market. They just haven't quite found their stride again yet, despite all their recent successful kickstarters. Hopefully the future projects they've laid out (most still unannounced, but quite a few 3rd party contracts) will help salve that.