Quote from: Brad;1120312You mean you don't like character sheets that resemble the following..?

That shit was so fucking stupid. That and the 250 point characters in Dungeon Fantasy.

Games can be simple or complicated to start, and simple or complicated in play. Draughts is simple to start, and simple to play. Chess is simple to start, and is optionally more complicated in play. AD&D1e is simple to start, and optionally more complicated in play, as was D&D3.5. But GURPS4e is complicated to start, and complicated in play, like Advanced Squad Leader.

The popular games tend to be the ones which start simple and remain simple, or which start simple and have optional complexity in play. Part of the genius of older editions of D&D is that any idiot could start, and as the character became experienced, so did the player - and they could handle any increased complexity. "But all I can do is swing a sword!" "Yeah, and all I can do is cast one spell today, and I only have three!" Yes, that's the idea.

Quote from: Omega;1120280Hate to say it but you are part of the reason why RPGs are so expensive now.

Fair enough. :|

Quote from: Morlock;1120244Really, I'm not all that picky about design. I cut my teeth on AD&D,

...and that right there IS the problem.

Every version pf "D&D" is kind of condescending and forces you into 'classes - GURPS does not.
The GURPS style credits the reader or gamer with intelligence and the ability to make choices.

You might say that GURPS is very 'pro-choice' - but you have to make a choice

-Ed C.

Quote from: estar;1120322Yes but that not a change between various editions.

Yes but still necessary to note as your answer to the question wouldn't give the results in my example.

On Dungeon Fantasy, they might be 250 point characters but the monsters are tough.  Even the orcs are 100 points and those angry undead vikings are nuts.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120360Yes but still necessary to note as your answer to the question wouldn't give the results in my example.

I wasn't commenting on your example but answering Stephen's question with minimum of detail on the differences.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120360On Dungeon Fantasy, they might be 250 point characters but the monsters are tough.  Even the orcs are 100 points and those angry undead vikings are nuts.

Try fighting Draugr with 150ish Heroic fantasy characters. Then it is really nuts.

Quote from: Morlock;1120240Contests of Skill:

Each contestant makes a success roll (3d6, roll under relevant skill or attribute): if one succeeds and one fails, the winner is obvious. If both succeed or both fail, the winner is the one who succeeded by the most or failed by the least....

What I don't have to wonder about is a nice, straightforward, "3d6 + skill + modifer for each contestant, and whoever scores higher wins, ties are pushed" rule. It's really friggin simple, and I know nothing's lurking in there.

So, what advantage does the GURPS method offer?

None to me. I'm with your method. I'm cool with Pee Wee Herman occasionally tossing the Hulk.

BUT...the GURPS option allows you to take relative skill or stats into question. For some GMs and some players, that's important.  

Quote from: David Johansen;1120288Sadly, the overlap between gamers and readers ain't what it used to be.

Please start a thread about this. I'd be interested in your thoughts in-depth.

Quote from: Koltar;1120351Every version pf "D&D" is kind of condescending and forces you into 'classes - GURPS does not. The GURPS style credits the reader or gamer with intelligence and the ability to make choices.

And that choice mostly results in a Fighter Mage with some Thief skills!

That's not a GURPS dig. It's an issue with all point-buy games. So often, the "player choices" winds up with "hey, which two X-men did you combine?"

Classes DO constrict choices, but that's the trade of Speed vs. Customization.

Quote from: Koltar;1120351You might say that GURPS is very 'pro-choice' - but you have to make a choice

That's true. I've never played a session of GURPS without a fetus exploding.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1120363I've never played a session of GURPS without a fetus exploding.

And that's a sentence I genuinely never thought I'd ever read.

Quote from: Koltar;1120351...and that right there IS the problem.

Every version pf "D&D" is kind of condescending and forces you into 'classes - GURPS does not.
The GURPS style credits the reader or gamer with intelligence and the ability to make choices.

If you want to tell people they're stupid, just tell them they're stupid. It's far less condescending than claiming the the players of one RPG are smarter than the players of another.

Quote from: Morlock;1120221when I do, I see stuff like "each turn is 1 second." Yeah, no. I'm not playing a game where the turns are 1 second. "I start aiming." *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I finish aiming" *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I pull the trigger." Yeah, no.

So, what house rules do you use to fix that?

The 1-second turns are probably one of the hardest things to get your head around when starting GURPS. I recently ran a Dungeon Fantasy mini-campaign for my group (around 100 hours table time) and that was an initial stumbling block. You need to re-calibrate your expectations. If a person drops their weapon it takes two seconds to recover it and only in the third second can they strike again. That sounds crazy but when you think about it in the context of having to keep your eyes on an enemy who is trying to kill you then it starts to become more credible. As others have suggested, if you need to use the word 'and' in your description of an action then it's probably too long for a GURPS round. But once people have started to get their heads around that, combat speeds up to a similar rate as other games. No one should be spending a lot of time executing their action as every character is under the same time constraints.

The Dungeon Fantasy box set is a great option for starting with GURPS if you enjoy that kind of game. It pre-configures the game to fit the genre and provides a whole bunch of templates to get players up and running more quickly with useful characters. I think the only 'house rule' we played was that we called fights once they were clearly resolved, rather than gaming out every last second of action.

GURPS has a few key strengths in my mind. First, you can configure it to do a lot of different things, but that does come with a cost in terms of GM prep time. Fortunately there are now multiple pre-configured options for some of the common genres (dungeon fantasy, modern action, monster hunters, post-apocalyptic, steam punk) and these recommend optional rules, provide character templates and stats for adversaries. You can do a lot with them.

The book How to be a GURPS GM is a great collection of advice for when starting out. The main advice for GURPS is 'only use the bits you need' and that includes NPC stats, too. Most NPCs just need the four core stats, one or two skills and maybe weapons and armour. No points necessary, points are for characters and key NPCs like dependents, allies, re-occurring enemies and so on.

The second key strength is that combat is very detailed and makes sense from a real-world perspective. If there is a real-world strategy that works you can bet it will be supported by GURPS. One of the advantages of this is that players don't need to understand the rules in detail if they already understand tactics. Someone at the table needs to understand how to interpret stuff in GURPS terms, but everyone else can pick this up through osmosis. I appreciate this isn't super helpful when you are the GM but at least you won't be relying on everyone in your group learning a complex set of rules to be combat-effective.

Similarly, 'fighters' in GURPS are hugely interesting to play as they have so many options round-to-round. Now, this of course includes a potential time-overhead for those 1-second rounds. But, you really can start simple and build up. As we played my group started out with only the vaguest understanding of the options available to them, but as they started to get comfortable with the basics and started needing options I pointed them out ('gee, this guy is hard to pin down as he keeps dodging me' - 'you could try a deceptive attack or a feint'). They built up their arsenal of options gradually over a few fights. If you have a group that likes playing combat-types GURPS is massively rewarding in my experience.

The third strength of GURPS is that the detail available means you can put emphasis in a lot of different places as the GM. If you want a game which focuses around how each PC is a different type of magic practitioner, spirit shaman, martial artist, amateur detective etc. then GURPS gives you lots of tools to do that. If you like SF games (and it sounds like you do) then you can have a party who cover all the needs for running a small ship plus whatever adventure context you are looking for (firefly, first contact, imperial scouts - whatever) without having to completely bend another less flexible game or hoping to luck-onto a niche game which happens to fit your specific needs.

So, I guess my advice would be to start with something more focussed and well supported, start with a core set of options in combat and build up, and not to sweat the detail unless you want that detail to be important to your game.

In many ways, 3e was an easier game to get into as each world book worked with the core book in a more isolated way. With 4e everything is much more standardised and that can both make it more impenetrable and bland-feeling. But 4e is more robust and if you want to mix-and-match your own stuff is better at this.

Quote from: Koltar;1120351...and that right there IS the problem.

Every version pf "D&D" is kind of condescending and forces you into 'classes - GURPS does not.
The GURPS style credits the reader or gamer with intelligence and the ability to make choices.

You might say that GURPS is very 'pro-choice' - but you have to make a choice

-Ed C.

Except D&D isnt condescending and does not force you into classes. D&D credited the players with enough intelligence to make decisions.

So you fail on every count there.

Quote from: dbm;1120382The 1-second turns are probably one of the hardest things to get your head around when starting GURPS. I recently ran a Dungeon Fantasy mini-campaign for my group (around 100 hours table time) and that was an initial stumbling block. You need to re-calibrate your expectations. If a person drops their weapon it takes two seconds to recover it and only in the third second can they strike again. That sounds crazy but when you think about it in the context of having to keep your eyes on an enemy who is trying to kill you then it starts to become more credible. As others have suggested, if you need to use the word 'and' in your description of an action then it's probably too long for a GURPS round. But once people have started to get their heads around that, combat speeds up to a similar rate as other games. No one should be spending a lot of time executing their action as every character is under the same time constraints.

Similar to how AD&D divided a round into segments. A round was fairly long. But your actions were split up amongst the 10 segments as modified by initiative. 2e kept the minute long round but now it was divided into 10 initiative counts. D&D as usual abstracts combat and takes into account all the little things going on in a round or segment.

Gurps is all about micromanaging everything. For some thats a boon. For others thats a bane.

It not micromanagement that the issue, it is doing one thing and one thing only per round that players has to get used to. Most players experience in the last two decades are with combat system that allow at least a move and a attack. In GURPS you can either move or attack.

For example D&D 5e, I could run some of my movement then leap the rest and then perform an attack as my action. With GURPS I will have to do the leap the first round, and then I will be able to attack in the attack in the second round.

Take picking up a weapon. The reason it takes several rounds because it takes a second to crouch, then a second to  grab it and stand, the finally a second to ready it. If you are heavily encumbered crouching and standing can take several seconds each as you have to balance the load on your body.

Part of the reason it works like this because in life, somebody losing their weapon and scrambling for it is going to get whacked at a few time by their opponent. GURPS default realism handles this situation naturally.

Positioning not hard to keep track of, you go from prone, to crouching, to being able to do a normal action.

If you want to be more cinematic about i.e. unrealistic there are options to avoid or short circuit the above. Usually at higher point totals. But it not the default assumption the way it is in most editions of D&D. For example if you have a high level of acrobatic skill you have a good chance of doing a acrobatic kip if unencumbered and to from a prone to a standing position in one round.

Quote from: Omega;1120391Except D&D isnt condescending and does not force you into classes.

Except for the part where that's literally the only option you have.

Quote from: Omega;1120391D&D credited the players with enough intelligence to make decisions.

...That don't involve their character's abilities, cuz that's literally determined by your class and whatever scores you were lucky enough (or not) to roll during creation. Only decisions D&D players have are during play, and even then their actual options, and for practical purposes, are fundamentally limited by their class. Especially in old D&D (the older the more limited).

For comparison look at the maneuvers within the Hero System. Note all the 1/2 phase actions. This means you can combine it with another 1/2 phase action including moving up to 1/2 of your movement, and do two thing in a round.

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Having run extensive campaigns with both system, I have observed that a significant majority of players prefer to being able to do at least two things when their turn comes. This can be summarized as a move and attack.

In contrast GURPS considers has all those actions as a full phase. So you can only do one of those per turn. Some may allow you take a single 1 yard step.  Players in general don't like this as much even if you don't mention the 1 second round as justification.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1120397Especially in old D&D (the older the more limited).

Only if you go by the idea that everything a character can do is defined in the rules and ignore the implications of the setting of the campaign.

How did you think fighters, magic users, and clerics climbed walls, disarm traps, sneak past guards, haggle with merchants, with just the 3 LBB of OD&D original release. It wasn't explained because Gygax thought it was an obvious point that didn't need to be explained. He was incorrect about that assumption and opted to fix it in the form of AD&D and the rest of the industry thought the same.

Thus leading to the incorrect assumption that in RPGs it is the rules that define what character can or can not do not the setting of the campaign.

Quick test, there isn't any rules for jumping in the 3 LBB, so does mean if i use those rules in a campaign character can't jump?