Quote from: RPGPundit;1122267Just play the Fantasy Trip.

Isnt that what Gurps is? A dolled up TFT? :rolleyes:

I have always related to GURPS as Advanced TFT.

Quote from: Omega;1122323Isnt that what Gurps is? A dolled up TFT? :rolleyes:

It not a AD&D/BECMI D&D situation. TFT and GURPS have a several characteristics in common but they are both their own thing.

For example TFT uses xd6 to represent difficulty. Instead of rolling 3d6 under attribute you roll 4d6 or 5dt. TFT characters abilities are represented by talents which can be a skill, skill package, or what GURPS call an advantage. TFT combat is more abstract than GURPS and has more of a wargame element than GURPS.

Both are fun to play but TFT Melee was designed as a wargame first and then used as the engine to resolve combat for In The Labyrinth. The same with the magic system. While GURPS has the reverse focus, it is designed as a RPG combat system first, but could be used as wargame i.e. Man To Man.

My view both work equally well and it amazing that Steve Jackson was able to design two classics. But GURPS is not Advanced TFT but rather SJ's second bite at making an RPG. The commonalities represent his preferences rather than continuation of what he started with TFT. Likely because he was trying to stay clear of copyright issues.

I know I typed up a reply last week, but I don't see it. Try 2:

Quote from: Skarg;1121971I'm not familiar with all Powered By GURPS books' rules, but the description of the line says that they include "a specially adapted version of the GURPS Lite rules in each one". The huge GURPS World War II line is Powered by GURPS, and is certainly much more involved than GURPS Lite (it even recommends and involves GURPS Vehicles). It's core book includes a GURPS Lite For World War Two section which is like GURPS Lite 3e but with all the appropriate skills and weapons plus quite a few additional (i.e. not in GURPS Lite 3e) rules appropriate for World War 2 weapons and combat, travel, injuries, etc.

You can compare 3 version of GURPS Lite for free:
Vanilla http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf
Transhuman Space http://www.sjgames.com/transhumanspace/img/lite.pdf
WWII http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf

Most of the changes are in the character creation system, for instance capsule summaries of all the ads/disads used in the infomorph or biomorph templates in the THS version. But there are more changes to the system system than I remember -- WW2 has a lot of additional combat options, for instance.

Quote from: Skarg;1121971But yeah the Dungeon Fantasy RPG also changes quite a few little details to mechanics compared to GURPS 4e, which I don't think GURPS Lite for World War Two does at all. It's also far more complete and crucially does include the tactical combat rules.

Sounds like the worst of both worlds. I find it a lot harder to learn a ruleset that's subtly different, than to learn a new set of rules from scratch. Digging through all the rules to try to spot all the subtle changes is a nightmare, and retraining is harder than learning in the first place.

Quote from: Skarg;1121971So you mean break out each of the derived stats into their own stats, rather than just not have a non-average measure for striking ST or health, right?

No, just group them in whatever way matches the real world data on which traits are correlated.

Dungeon Fantasy was more aimed at the GURPS fans than new players.  An understandable if regrettable decision.  They already cut the print run 30% and then had to run a kick starter to reprint it when there was still demand.

Dungeon Fantasy is very good if you want a selfcontained dungeon fantasy rpg with detailed character building and combat.  It's not so much small changes to GURPS as integrated options (some new) to tailor it to doing one thing well.

Admittedly, I'd far prefer gritty mythical fantasy in consistent worlds but what Dungeon Fantasy does it does well.

Quote from: estar;1122399It not a AD&D/BECMI D&D situation. TFT and GURPS have a several characteristics in common but they are both their own thing.

For example TFT uses xd6 to represent difficulty. Instead of rolling 3d6 under attribute you roll 4d6 or 5dt. TFT characters abilities are represented by talents which can be a skill, skill package, or what GURPS call an advantage. TFT combat is more abstract than GURPS and has more of a wargame element than GURPS.

Both are fun to play but TFT Melee was designed as a wargame first and then used as the engine to resolve combat for In The Labyrinth. The same with the magic system. While GURPS has the reverse focus, it is designed as a RPG combat system first, but could be used as wargame i.e. Man To Man.

My view both work equally well and it amazing that Steve Jackson was able to design two classics. But GURPS is not Advanced TFT but rather SJ's second bite at making an RPG. The commonalities represent his preferences rather than continuation of what he started with TFT. Likely because he was trying to stay clear of copyright issues.

Well, my perspective is coming from playing combat-heavy TFT for years, to the point that we wanted more advanced combat rules.

That is what Man To Man gave us, and what all GURPS since then (except GURPS Lite, or world books with little/no combat-relevant details added) has continued to include.

I'm curious how you would see TFT "has more of a wagame element than GURPS", since it seems to me that the Advanced combat system (in all editions of GURPS since Man To Man) does everything TFT's combat system does, and more, in much more detail, etc. The combat system is a more advanced and more detailed combat system of essentially the same type, it seems to me. Plugging it into our TFT campaigns was direct and just made those games more advanced and detailed, without changing their nature except they were far less predictable and involved more complex tactics and situations.

The non-combat parts of GURPS also seem to me like more advanced/detailed treatments of the non-combat elements of RPG play. The main shift in type I notice is in adding traits other than skills/talents, such as mechanics for non-physical personality issues and social stuff. Though there was a Fantasy Gamer article (reprinted for Legacy TFT in the TFT Companion) about adding disadvantages to TFT. The other main shift I notice is just in support for all sorts of other genres and playstyles and stuff, many of which do of course take GURPS many places TFT doesn't go. But even if you're playing GURPS Boardroom & Curia, and people get into a brawl, it's going to be played out on a hexmap with counters much like TFT, at least at my table.

Quote from: David Johansen;1122411Dungeon Fantasy is very good if you want a selfcontained dungeon fantasy rpg with detailed character building and combat.  It's not so much small changes to GURPS as integrated options (some new) to tailor it to doing one thing well.

That sounds better, and more along the lines of what I'd expect. Doesn't really leverage the modularity that much, that's not really the point of a stand alone game.

Quote from: Skarg;1122431I'm curious how you would see TFT "has more of a wagame element than GURPS", since it seems to me that the Advanced combat system (in all editions of GURPS since Man To Man) does everything TFT's combat system does, and more, in much more detail, etc. The combat system is a more advanced and more detailed combat system of essentially the same type, it seems to me. Plugging it into our TFT campaigns was direct and just made those games more advanced and detailed, without changing their nature except they were far less predictable and involved more complex tactics and situations.

Because I view the primary difference between a wargame and a RPG is one of focus. The combat portion of TFT started out as the wargame Melee. It focused on what it had to in order present a wargame about individual combat in a fun and interesting way. Which it succeeded brilliantly. Wizards did the same with spellcasters. The one element that went beyond melee combat and dueling spellcasters was experience. This was because the focus of both was wargaming.

The Fantasy Trip took those two wargames and binded them together into a RPG. First by expanding them into advanced versions and adding in "In the Labyrinth". Advanced Melee is a straight forward expansion of Melee giving more options and covering more combat situation like mounted combat, etc. Advanced Wizard also add more options and importantly adds in magic item and magic item creation.  Important elements for RPG creation. But it is in "In the Labyrinth" where all of this is combined into an RPG. For characters Steve Jackson came up with a very good way to add non-combat capabilities in the form of Talents. There is more in ITL but that general gist.

GURPS combat in contrast was design to go hand in hand with the non-combat elements as part of an RPG. Yes there was Man to Man but it was lifted out of the larger system that Steve Jackson, went through the production process, and released as a product. Man to Man had the elements of the larger GURPS system like advantages and skill but it was focused on combat.

Wrapping it up
The truth is that any set of mechanics or game focused on players playing individual characters can be use as part of a tabletop roleplaying campaign. Or the combat system of most RPGs can be used as a wargame. What matters is what the author focuses on writing the product.

But unlike the original release of TFT, the new release has a single book, In The Labyrinth, that covers the system as an RPG.  I think it does a better job of it than the original three book release.

Interesting, thanks, though it doesn't shift my perspective at all.

Yes Steve had a full RPG in mind and in the works when he published Man To Man, and the skill system supports non-combat skills, but Man To Man didn't include much that wasn't about combat, and practically no other part of GURPS ever got as detailed or as well developed as the combat system that remains essentially what's in Man To Man.

As for TFT, Steve Jackson wrote the original In The Labyrinth as one draft including the parts split up by Metagaming into Advanced Melee and Advanced Wizard. He put them into one book in the new Legacy release, but except for a few changes, the text is mostly the same with no additions to the scope except a small number of new spells and talents, and some new options for using experience. But you could break it up again as Metagaming did and there'd be no real difference in scope except the text would be in three physical books.

So what is The Fantasy Trip vs In the Labyrinth? Some seem to refer to Melee and Wizardry as TFT. Others seem to refer to ITL as TFT?

Whats what?

The Fantasy Trip is the broader product line heading under which Melee, Wizard, and In The Labyrinth fall.

Yep.

The Fantasy Trip is the RPG system.

Melee is its most basic form: A pocket box boardgame about arena combat, a good intro with most of the rules of the combat system.

Wizard is basically the same arena combat pocket box boardgame, but it has magic/wizards and the core of the  magic system, and doesn't list the weapons & armor & a few combat details.

In The Labyrinth is the campaign book, which has all the rules, spells, setting, RPG campaign info, talents, more spells, all the rules in the Melee/Wizard and more, etc etc.

Watching The 100, I am getting some GURPS lessons.

One is that a character can have the trait Cowardice, and yet still see the world and have many interesting adventures.

Another is that it's okay to buy down Will, apparently nobody except great villains have any resolve whatsoever.

Lastly, Bad Temper and Callous are quite common.

QuoteLastly, Bad Temper and Callous are quite common.

I've noticed that a lot, actually; people in TV shows seem to get angry a lot more often than I ever see people doing in real life, and if it has any effect at all in the story it's almost always a positive one for the character. The few times I've lost my temper as an adult it's never gotten me anything worth the tsuris.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1122899I've noticed that a lot, actually; people in TV shows seem to get angry a lot more often than I ever see people doing in real life, and if it has any effect at all in the story it's almost always a positive one for the character. The few times I've lost my temper as an adult it's never gotten me anything worth the tsuris.

Oh I can tell you Im sure I'd have felt a hell of alot better if Id blown up and beat the hell out of the saw-boss we had to suffer and die under.