Hmmm, refreshing my GURPS interest with this thread. I got that Dungeon Fantasy boxed set last year along with the GM screen and they're both still in shrink-wrap...

Anyway, I loved GURPS 3rd edition; played in a Chill-style horror game, Twilight 2000 campaign, Traveller game, dark fantasy, and a bunch of others. Only used the main book for all these with the basic combat system, because it was enough. Where I had the issue with GURPS was using the advanced combat system and stuff from other books. When 4th came out, sure it reorganized everything to be more cohesive, but I think it lost a lot of flavor, and it's really not "universal". The 3rd edition Basic Set is probably the best gritty fantasy game out there, but falls flat for stuff like Supers. I never liked it for spy/espionage games, either. 4th tried to fix a lot of issues, (especially to the Supers genre), but lost any actual appeal to me because it tried to be everything to everyone, which is impossible. You can see the Fantasy Trip DNA in GURPS plain as day, and I think it's hard to get rid of it. SJGames SHOULDN'T have gotten rid of it, honestly. I'd play a fantasy game using the 3rd Basic Set forever, but I have yet to even touch 4th because I just don't like the approach (and yes, I own every single book, which means I have a lot of heavy paperweights). As an aside, I will say that the old HERO rules that formed the basis for Fantasy HERO, Espionage, Danger International, etc., are arguably better than GURPS when it comes to a skills-based system.

Just my rambling opinion, so discard if needed.

The problem with fourth edition is that it caters to the experienced GURPS gear-head.  Everything is in there.  They really dropped the ball on Supers and you have to house rule the hell out of it.  To some extent that's the nature of GURPS.  Everything is optional.  The basic combat system is in the player's book, it never went away.  But everything in fourth edition is massively over built.  If you want a lighter, more playable GURPS Fantasy, there's the Disc World Roleplaying Game which uses a simpler version of pretty much everything.

Some years ago here there was a good discussion on the various editions of Gurps and why they work for X style play but not for Y style as one might be more a tool kit than the other which might be more focused in various ways.

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?31398-If-a-guy-was-going-to-get-into-GURPS

And Krug sums it up well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;808428GURPS 3rd lite.

Let's do a boardgame analogy because I think the GURPS partisans are doing you a bit of a disservice.  

GURPS 3rd is a successful boardgame that works.  Then there are a hundred expansions that let you expand the core game.  Use the one you want.

GURPS 4th is take the core boardgame and all the expansions, cut them up into jigsaw pieces, pour them into a huge bag, and then say "You can make whatever boardgame you want!"  It's useful only to the people that are already GURPS experts.  I haven't seen anyone come in to GURPS 4th cold and actually be able to run the game.  Everything in two books is a feature to the decades-old veteran, it's a morass to the newbie.

Quote from: Omega;1120286Some years ago here there was a good discussion on the various editions of Gurps and why they work for X style play but not for Y style as one might be more a tool kit than the other which might be more focused in various ways.

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?31398-If-a-guy-was-going-to-get-into-GURPS

And Krug sums it up well.

Looks like I posted pretty much the same thing in that thread as this one...and estar still can't fathom the fact that 4th isn't an easy game to understand for a newbie.

I'd argue that the really big problem is that Steve Jackson Games doesn't see accessibility to newbies as an issue.  In essence, they see GURPS as a game with a shrinking die-hard fanbase that doesn't really bring in new people.  They recognize that the name and reputation are obstacles, hence The Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game rather than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.  But then they do a pretty complex implementation of GURPS in DF because they feel the primary customer base is existing GURPS fans.

I will always maintain that what GURPS really needs is a handful of GURPS Lite supplements to let people try fantasy, science fiction, and spies or superheroes or something without the full load.

GURPS Vorkosigian and the Discworld rpg are distinct attempts at a complete integrated introductory game.  They're both nice but I think the settings are actually a drawback for many people.  This is based on trying to sell said books in my store.  Sadly, the overlap between gamers and readers ain't what it used to be.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120288I will always maintain that what GURPS really needs is a handful of GURPS Lite supplements to let people try fantasy, science fiction, and spies or superheroes or something without the full load.

Transhuman Space is really good, so is WWII, but both of those probably have limited appeal like you said. Why can't SJG re-release GURPS Conan and integrate Lite into it like Discworld? That might do the trick.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120224Parry: 11
Block: 13 (with Medium Shield)
Dodge: 10 ( 8 with Medium Encumbrance)

Can I ask how the Active Defenses were calculated?  Those look considerably higher than they would have been in GURPS 3E, the last one with which I'm familiar.  (When I ran a GURPS Supers game in 3E, I also had to bump the Active Defenses myself a fair bit to keep combats from being finished too quickly.)

Quote from: Omega;1120286And Krug sums it up well.

The problems started with 3rd Edition it just wasn't as overwhelming of a toolkit as 4e was but still had the same basic issue. The sweet spot for GURPS core rules was the 2nd edition Boxed Set. For most hobbyists who started with D&D you could see how to make various character types but still laid down a foundation for the other genres.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1120295Can I ask how the Active Defenses were calculated?  Those look considerably higher than they would have been in GURPS 3E, the last one with which I'm familiar.  (When I ran a GURPS Supers game in 3E, I also had to bump the Active Defenses myself a fair bit to keep combats from being finished too quickly.)

3E had passive defense which added in if you wore armor. 4e ditched passive defense in favor of a higher base value.

For example
Dodge
3rd: Move
4th: Move +3

Parry
3rd: 1/2 Shield Skill
4th: 1/2 Shield Skill + 3

Block
3rd: 1/2 Weapon Skill
4th: 1/2 Weapon Skill +3

Shields still give a Defense Bonus.

For the fantasy campaigns I ran, 3e defense vs 4e defense was a wash. In some situation it made a difference but overall both wound up in the same place just calculated differently.

Quote from: Marchand;1120273I spent a long time wanting to love GURPS because of the brilliant supporting materials, but one day I thought "Picks His Nose, -1 point" and realised it would never work for me. Even this Bob character showcases the features I find annoying - I'm not having a go by the way, I think you've created a really great, helpful example.

But my issue is the GM has to remember this guy has "sense of duty" and also "duty" (which constrains what the party can do), and presumably dish out punishments if the players fail to abide by these disadvantages (lost XP or something?); and why is duty -10 but sense of duty -5? Doesn't that mean the GM has to make sure the PC gets awkward orders from the Baron roughly twice as often as the PC comes across abandoned infants needing succoured? Or even worse, would it have to be generally agreed at the table that the hassle imposed by the Baron is roughly twice as bad as the hassle of having to help innocents? And doesn't that all just massively get in the way of the game?

Sense of duty is internal (your code), while duty is external (your bosses take it very seriously). But advantages and disadvantages do overlap, and the books often have to explain that if you take X, you can't also take Y because that's double dipping (I'm going through GURPS Zombies, and they do it it a lot).

If you want an alternative, a good start is a set of advantages and disadvantages written by S. John Ross, based on his experiences writing GURPS Black Ops, which is about highly trained special ops dealing with fantastic threats. The word they got from above was to stat the characters out in every last detail, which led to crazy-long skill lists in the published book. Ross didn't think that was the best approach, so he wrote up some alternatives, including Truly Badass and Up to the Challenge, which abstract away some of the detail.

Unfortunately, Ross's Blue Room with the full discussion and reasoning has vanished from the web, but the basic ads/disads are saved as a crude text file on GURPSnet:
http://www.gurpsnet.org/Archive/AdsDisSkills/AdsDis/Action.hero

But as I mentioned before, that's fighting against the basic nature of GURPS.

Quote from: Pat;1120311GURPS Black Ops, which is about highly trained special ops dealing with fantastic threats. The word they got from above was to stat the characters out in every last detail, which led to crazy-long skill lists in the published book.

You mean you don't like character sheets that resemble the following..?

Nolan Mathers
850 points
Age 42; 6'2", 235 lbs.; brown hair cropped short
and hazel eyes.
Nolan Mathers has built himself into a
Company legend, but as he likes to point out, he's
"done it the hard way." With 48 missions under his
belt, he ranks among the most experienced active
ops, and always leads his squads. His charm and
diplomacy make him the favorite for this; his experience
and tactical skills make him the best candidate.
Despite his popularity and normally easygoing
way, many ops have seen him completely blister
someone when the situation called for it. He can
transform a veteran op into putty with a few choice
words. This ability to switch from silver to acid
tongue just adds to his reputation.
Some old hands have even seen Nolan lose his
considerable temper. A few have survived to tell
about it.
Assume that Mathers knows any of his TL-based
skills at the TL appropriate for the campaign. That
means that if he retains his TL8 firearms, he would
take a -1 penalty with everyday TL7 gear.
ST 21 [120]; IQ 16 [80]; DX 20 [175]; HT 16
[80].
Speed: 9; Move: 11*.
Damage: Thrust 2d; Swing 4d-1
Dodge: 10*; Parry: 15*.
* Includes bonuses for Running and Combat
Reflexes; Acrobatics and Body Language skills may
further increase Dodge and/or Parry.
Advantages: Alertness +3 [15]; Charisma +2 [10];
Combat Reflexes [15]; High Pain Threshold [10];
Luck [15]; Patron (The Company; 15 or less)
[105]; Reputation (+3 among black ops; always)
[5]; Strong Will +5 [20]; Toughness DR 2 [25];
Very Fit [15]; Zeroed [10].
Disadvantages: Bad Temper [-10]; Extremely
Hazardous Duty [-20]; Insomniac [-10]; Secret
(Black op) [-30]; Sense of Duty (Black ops) [-10];
Sense of Duty ("Family") [-5].
Quirks: Smokes little cigars [-1]; Calls women
"honey" when intent is to irritate [-1]; Never
stands in front of door when opening it [-1];
Cracks knuckles just before a fight [-1]; Prone to
use explosives [-1].
Skills: Acting-16 [2]; Animal Handling-15 [2];
Anthropology-15 [2]; Area Knowledge (Earth)-
18 [4]; Armoury (Beam Handguns)-14 [1/2];
Armoury (Hand Weapons)-14 [1/2]; Armoury
(Rifles & Handguns)-16 [2]; Armoury
(Vehicular Weaponry)-14 [1/2]; Artificial
Intelligence-14 [1]; Astronomy-14 [1]; Bard-
18 [2]; Beam Weapons (Lasers)-23 [2]*;
Bicycling-19 [1/2]; Boating-18 [1/2]; Body
Language-16 [4]; Botany-14 [1]; Bow-18 [1];
Boxing-21 [4]; Camouflage-15 [1/2]; Chemistry-
14 [1]; Chess-15 [1/2]; Climbing-20 [2];
Computer Operation-16 [1]; Computer
Programming-14 [1]; Crossbow-19 [1/2];
Dancing-18 [1/2]; Demolition-17 [4];
Diplomacy-20 [12]; Driving (Automobile)-21 [4];
Driving (Tracked)-21 [4]; Ecology-14 [1];
Electronics (Computers)-15 [2]; Electronics
Operation (Communications)-14 [1/2]; Engineer
(Bombs and Traps)-15 [2]; Engineer (Combat
Engineering)-14 [1]; Engineer (Electrical)-14 [1];
Engineer (Mechanical)-14 [1]; Engineer (Nuclear
Weapons)-14 [1]; Explosive Ordnance Disposal-
14 [1]; Fast Draw (Pistol)-20 [1/2]† (Sword)-20
[1/2]†; Fencing-18 [1/2]; First Aid-17 [2];
Forward Observer-14 [1/2]; Gambling-16 [2];
Garrote-20 [1]; Geology-14 [1]; Gunner
(Machine Gun)-24 [8]*; Guns (Flamethrower)-21
[1/2]*; Guns (Pistol)-25 [8]*; Guns (Rifle)-24 [4]*;
Hiking-14 [1/2]; History (specialized: Military
and Martial Arts)-14 [1]; Judo-21 [8]; Karate-21
[8]; Knife-20 [1]; Leadership-18 [2]; Literature-14 [1]; Mathematics-17 [6]; Mechanic
(Automobile)-14 [1/2]; Mechanic (Helicopter)-
14 [1/2]; Meditation-14 [2]; Mind Block-20 [10];
Motorcycle (Medium and Heavy)-19 [1/2];
Naturalist-15 [2]; NBC Warfare-14 [1/2]; No-
Landing Extraction-14 [1/2]; Nuclear Physics-
14 [2]; Orienteering-15 [1]; Parachuting-19
[1/2]; Philosophy-14 [1]; Physician-14 [1];
Physics (specialized: Ballistics)-16 [4];
Physiology-14 [2]; Physiology (Grey)-14 [2];
Piloting (Helicopter)-20 [2]; Piloting (Light
Airplane)-20 [2]; Poetry-14 [1/2]; Powerboat-18
[1/2]; Professional Skill (Machinist)-14 [1/2];
Psychology (specialized: Combat Psychology)-
15 [2]; Psychology (Grey)-14 [1]; Running-16
[4]; Savoir-Faire-15 [1/2]; Scuba-14 [1/2];
Shortsword-22 [8]; Sign Language (AMESLAN)-
14 [1/2]; Skating-18 [1]; Skiing-18 [1];
Spear-18 [1/2]; Speed Load (Clip-loading)-19
[1/2]; Stealth-21 [4]; Strategy-14 [1]; Streetwise-
16 [2]; Swimming-19 [1/2]; Tactics-17 [6];
Telegraphy-15 [1/2]; Throwing-18 [1]; Traps-15
[1]; Wrestling-20 [2]; Writing-14 [1/2];
Xenology-14 [1]; Zoology-13 [1/2]
* Includes +2 for IQ.
† Includes +1 for Combat Reflexes.
Martial Arts Maneuvers: Arm Lock-23 [1];
Axe Kick-20 [1]; Back Kick-21 [2]; Choke
Hold-20 [1]; Close Combat (Short-sword)-
19 [2]; Elbow Strike-20 [1/2]; Eye
Gouging-15 [4]; Ground Fighting
(Karate)-20 [4]; Head Butt-16 [1/2]; Head
Lock-20 [4]; Hit Location (Shortsword)-22 [4];
Jab-21 [2]; Kicking-21 [2]; Roundhouse Punch-
20 [1]; Slip-10 [4]; Spinning Punch-21 [2].
Languages: English-16 (native); German-15 [1];
Spanish-15 [1]
Weapons: See Guns, p. 8.

Quote from: estar;11202973E had passive defense which added in if you wore armor. 4e ditched passive defense in favor of a higher base value.

In my example, also the Combat Reflexes advantage gives +1 to Active Defenses.

Quote from: Brad;1120291Transhuman Space is really good, so is WWII, but both of those probably have limited appeal like you said. Why can't SJG re-release GURPS Conan and integrate Lite into it like Discworld? That might do the trick.

Discworld, Prime Directive, and Vorkosigian are all complete games with the lite rules built in.  Vorkosigian is particularly impressive in that it includes a decent chunk of GURPS Spaceships.

My understanding is they've been less successful than was hoped and there are still cases of the books in the warehouse but they aren't available through the online store.  To my mind a generic fantasy starter or sf starter would be more successful than those, especially Discworld where there are already beautifully illustrated setting guides in the book store.  Really, in this age of big budget superhero movies, a tight supers book would probably do pretty good.  I might even look at putting some of my supers and notes together as a fanbook as I really hate how they handled supers in 4e.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120317In my example, also the Combat Reflexes advantage gives +1 to Active Defenses.

Yes but that not a change between various editions.

I like the 3rd Ed. Basic Set, particularly the later versions with the smith art.  This is far superior (and easier to read) than the glossy low-contrast 4e.   In addition, you can keep all the supers advantages far away from the table because they are in an entirely separate volume that you don't have to buy.  This makes it playable.

Regarding 1 second turns, it doesn't matter how much game time advances during a combat so stressing about the the length of the turn is pointless.  The nice thing about gurps combat is you have to choose against very different options each turn.  A lot of other games dont force the hard choice and consequently there is not a lot of interesting choice to be made. Even better 3e only gives passive defense (PD) to beefy guys wearing armor, which vastly improves and shortens gun combat because mooks don't have an 8+ dodge.