Or, "sell me on your version of GURPS." I'm not what I would call familiar with GURPS, though I have skimmed here and there. One thing that really kills it for me is the aesthetics. I'm an aesthetics whore, I admit it. I prefer good-looking RPGs with high production values. And GURPS is ugly.

I could look past that, but when I do, I see stuff like "each turn is 1 second." Yeah, no. I'm not playing a game where the turns are 1 second. "I start aiming." *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I finish aiming" *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I pull the trigger." Yeah, no.

So, what house rules do you use to fix that?

I want to like GURPS, so don't fly in all defensive to save the old girl. Just help me get past a couple mental blocks. The system has a metric shit-ton of support, and I like the overall grittier, more realistic feel that it has over HERO or Savage Worlds. I just don't wanna spend forever running combats.

Maybe some actual play videos or podcasts you'd recommend, if you think I've got the wrong impression?

At most tables, AD&D's 1 minute round and GURPS 1 second round were played the same.

If you are looking for coffee table art books masquerading as games, Steve Jackson isn't your friend.

I've not found GURPS combat last overly long. It's a more detailed system than TSR D&D (especially if you break out GURPS's various bells and whistles), but if you can handle HERO or RuneQuest combat, you'll not be concerned with GURPS combat length after a couple games.

The one second turns are fine.  Give them a chance and don't worry about it too much.  It works really well and keeps the movement rates in check with weapon ranges.  Just tell the players that if they have to say "and" it won't fit in one turn.  Keep it fast, you don't have time to deliberate in one second.  The reason defense rolls are set up the way they are is that you just roll under the number.  (-4 if they're stunned).

Don't get obsessed over advantage enhancements and limitations at first.  Keep the character's simple at first

Bob

Attributes:
ST 14 [40];
DX 12 [40];
IQ 10

• ;

HT 12 [20].

Base Lift: 31
Hit Points: 14 (equal to Strength)
Basic Speed: 6
Move: 6 (4 with Medium Encumbrance)
Parry: 11
Block: 13 (with Medium Shield)
Dodge: 10 ( 8 with Medium Encumbrance)

Advantages:
Comfortable Wealth [10];
Combat Reflexes [15];

Disadvantages:
Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-5];
Duty (Baron Vondroom) [-10];
Sense of Duty (Innocents) [-5];

Skills:
Area Knowledge (Barony of VonDroom) 12 [4];
Broadsword 14 [8];
Climbing 12 [2];
Fast Talk 10 [2];
Marching 12 [2];
Shield 14 [4];
Spear 12 [2];
Spear Throwing 12 [1].

Is a perfectly viable character.

GURPS lite is a great starting point.

The core rules are pretty simple, and you can pick them up in just 32 pages.
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG31-0004

GURPS Lite is the real core, you can treat everything else as optional additions. SJG games decided to appeal to the vocal diehards with 4th edition, which made the Basic Set comprehensive, but intimidating and a terrible way to learn the game. But don't let that fool you, the game isn't that hard.

But if you've looked that over and still don't like the 1 second turn, it's probably not the game for you. There were some ideas to abstract combat out a bit in Pyramid, but they were clearly struggling against the current. Actions in GURPS are very granular. It works much better if you wrap your head around that and work with it, than if you fight the strong tendency of the rules.

The books are kind of ugly, though there is one consolation: It was going to be a lot worse. SJG was bragging about the amazing art when they released the cover mockups for 4E, but the community took one look, basically threw up in their mouths, and responded by creating their own versions. SJG grudgingly adopted the fan-favorite's work as their new trade dress. While the interiors are kind of blocky and clunky, the covers are at least presentable.

Quote from: Morlock;1120221Or, "sell me on your version of GURPS." I'm not what I would call familiar with GURPS, though I have skimmed here and there. One thing that really kills it for me is the aesthetics. I'm an aesthetics whore, I admit it. I prefer good-looking RPGs with high production values. And GURPS is ugly.

Well using it across three editions (2nd, 3rd, 4th) for 20 years I never had an issue finding the rules I needed when I needed it. The rules are a tool to run a campaign. GURPS doesn't pretend to be anything else other than a toolkit for referees to build their campaign with the genre of their choice. And for players to build the character they want to play within that campaign.

The problem with GURPS is that novices in later editions especially 4e that it is a steep learning curve. That to run a campaign starting out in GURPS, you have to pick and choose the rules you want to use in that campaign. So that extra works beyond what other RPGs require.

It not going to sell you a pretty story. But GURPS does present interesting settings at times and thoroughly explain how to run campaigns in various time periods and setting, some mundane other more fantastic.

Quote from: Morlock;1120221I could look past that, but when I do, I see stuff like "each turn is 1 second." Yeah, no. I'm not playing a game where the turns are 1 second. "I start aiming." *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I finish aiming" *everyone and his dog's 1-second turn later* "I pull the trigger." Yeah, no.

GURPS combat is a system where each players does one thing and one thing only as their character each round. There is no reactions, bonus actions, etc. Your turn comes, you get to do one thing. Move, step and attack, aim, reload, whatever.

How many other RPGs where you can only do one thing per combat round? How long it takes each player to resolve things in RPGs that allow characters to do multiple things in a combat round? It a mixed bag, but GURPS happened to be very well designed.

GURPS combat is considered slow because it uses one second. Resolving turns is straight forward and quickly done. The issue is that characters get defenses. Which means attack don't hit as often. If you try to use the kitchen sink the first time out then it going to be bog down as you constantly referencing the rulebook. However that not a trait unique to GURPS but to any system with detailed combat mechanics.

Quote from: Morlock;1120221Maybe some actual play videos or podcasts you'd recommend, if you think I've got the wrong impression?

I would start with the Dungeon Fantasy RPG, it not what I would made but it better to learn from than the core rulebook. The problem with DF RPG is that they set the baseline at 250 points. Which will get you characters that will be able to do a D&D style dungeon crawl without having to hole up after the first serious combat encounter. But that 250 points give characters a lot more things to keep track of. Comparable to a 3e or 5e character beyond mid levels.

I wrote a fair amount of posts on GURPS

Including this on the basics of GURPS combat.

I always wanted to like GURPS, but it never grokked for me, regardless of how much I played. Kinda like FATE for me. However, I did find a FREE fantasy RPG that made my GURPS players happy and worked well for me in actual play. It has a surprising amount of free supplements too. I personally LOVE the art, but I'm a b/w line art fan.  

It's called WARRIOR, ROGUE & MAGE ("Wyrm")
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/

One thing which saved me a lot of headaches wasn't a house rule, but a GMing approach. Whatever the system, looking up rules and charts slows the pace of the game.

But sometimes the rules and charts don't matter. Rather than looking up all the modifiers and possibilities and then asking them to roll, just get them to roll first. Because if they roll 3,4 or 5, or 16, 17 or 18, then the modifiers don't matter, you know the result. If they get 10 or 11 or something, well okay now the numbers matter.

Further, after GMing it for a while you can just eyeball a bonus or malus. You just say, "um, +3 I guess," and the fact that next time the situation comes up you say it's +2 doesn't really matter - the randomness of the dice is far, far larger than the randomness of a GM's decisions.

Wrote this before I saw all the replies, which I will read after posting:

Okay, so, I'm looking at the GURPS Lite 3e rules:

Contests of Skill:

Each contestant makes a success roll (3d6, roll under relevant skill or attribute): if one succeeds and one fails, the winner is obvious. If both succeed or both fail, the winner is the one who succeeded by the most or failed by the least.

Okay, I am frankly not dedicated enough, not smart enough, or both to try and figure out the ins and outs of that math. But I suspect something stupid is lurking in there, somewhere.

What I don't have to wonder about is a nice, straightforward, "3d6 + skill + modifer for each contestant, and whoever scores higher wins, ties are pushed" rule. It's really friggin simple, and I know nothing's lurking in there.

So, what advantage does the GURPS method offer?

QuoteThe books are kind of ugly, though there is one consolation: It was going to be a lot worse. SJG was bragging about the amazing art when they released the cover mockups for 4E, but the community took one look, basically threw up in their mouths, and responded by creating their own versions. SJG grudgingly adopted the fan-favorite's work as their new trade dress. While the interiors are kind of blocky and clunky, the covers are at least presentable.

Really, I'm not all that picky about design. I cut my teeth on AD&D, FFS, and when I crack those books open I still find them perfectly respectable in terms of design. Extremely outdated, but serviceable. What gets me is art. I guess good art is just too expensive for all but the best-funded RPGs. And even then there's no accounting for taste; I think the Dungeonpunk stuff that WotC went to from 3e onward is complete scheisse (though they've done a lot to fix that in 5e). Professionally-executed scheisse, but scheisse.

But it seems like as soon as you step out of the high-end fantasy RPG space, hoo-boy, does the art take a nosedive. GURPS isn't actually bad, graded on this curve, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. I mean, it's not like there are a lot of sci-fi games out there with good art that also happens to be somewhere near the hard SF genre I'm looking for. That said, GURPS could benefit from at least adequate design, which would be a step up from what it has now. This is probably especially important for publishers that can't afford nice art.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1120231I always wanted to like GURPS, but it never grokked for me, regardless of how much I played. Kinda like FATE for me. However, I did find a FREE fantasy RPG that made my GURPS players happy and worked well for me in actual play. It has a surprising amount of free supplements too. I personally LOVE the art, but I'm a b/w line art fan.  

It's called WARRIOR, ROGUE & MAGE ("Wyrm")
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/

I really miss B&W art. AD&D had a lot of crappy B&W art, but all of it was evocative. And Trampier and Roslof were masterful. I'd love to see special edition of D&D 5e with old Trampier/Roslof/best of art next to new stuff, maybe from guys like MacDougall or Mike Mignola, etc.

I prefer GURPS Ultra-Lite.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1120223At most tables, AD&D's 1 minute round and GURPS 1 second round were played the same.

Yes.

What's rarely appreciated is that except in cases of a ticking bomb or similar effects, combat round lengths are irrelevant. All that matters is how much you can move compared to how many other actions you can take.

If the one-round move is "1 yard" then everyone gets shredded by ranged weapons before they can close to melee, or before they can flee. If the one-round move is "100 yards", then people can literally run rings around one another during combats. Obviously either is absurd. And so most games settle for something between a few yards and a dozen, or make it vary by attributes and skills (like GURPS) or character size and encumbrance (like RuneQuest and AD&D1e), but still staying within that 3-12 yard range.

Again: whether it's 1 second or 1 minute doesn't matter except in cases of a ticking bomb or similar effects.

Now, if you want to rationalise X actions in a Y length combat round, then it may matter; but that's a "does this seem reasonable" thing which affects immersion and may if handled badly lead to lots of dumb jokes, but it doesn't actually affect in-game tactics.We are privileged these days to have a lot of videos on YouTube etc of real combats, from running firefights of 6 hours in Afghanistan during which no enemy is visible on camera, to three-punch or one pummel and wrestle fights lasting seconds.  

For these reasons, when I run games, hardly anyone asks, but if asked I say that it's an indeterminate amount of time of 1 to 60 seconds, the exact length varies not only from one combat to another, but one round to another. If there is a "ticking bomb" scenario, then I'll name or write down a number of combat rounds in which the thing is going to go off, so to speak. For example in one scifi a ship was coming to the world to start bombing it, our game started at 1900 in real time and the bombing was going to start at 2030 - whether the players were still on the planet, miles from the target or right under it depended on their actions and how much they faffed around. One minute or one month of in-game might have passed either way, it didn't matter.

Quote from: David Johansen;1120224The one second turns are fine.  Give them a chance and don't worry about it too much.  It works really well and keeps the movement rates in check with weapon ranges.  Just tell the players that if they have to say "and" it won't fit in one turn.  Keep it fast, you don't have time to deliberate in one second.  The reason defense rolls are set up the way they are is that you just roll under the number.  (-4 if they're stunned).

Don't get obsessed over advantage enhancements and limitations at first.  Keep the character's simple at first

Bob

Attributes:
ST 14 [40];
DX 12 [40];
IQ 10

• ;

HT 12 [20].

Advantages:
Comfortable Wealth [10];
Combat Reflexes [15];

Disadvantages:
Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-5];
Duty (Baron Vondroom) [-10];
Sense of Duty (Innocents) [-5];

Skills:
Area Knowledge (Barony of VonDroom) 12 [4];
Broadsword 14 [8];
Climbing 12 [2];
Fast Talk 10 [2];
Marching 12 [2];
Shield 14 [4];
Spear 12 [2];
Spear Throwing 12 [1].

Is a perfectly viable character.

GURPS lite is a great starting point.

I spent a long time wanting to love GURPS because of the brilliant supporting materials, but one day I thought "Picks His Nose, -1 point" and realised it would never work for me. Even this Bob character showcases the features I find annoying - I'm not having a go by the way, I think you've created a really great, helpful example.

But my issue is the GM has to remember this guy has "sense of duty" and also "duty" (which constrains what the party can do), and presumably dish out punishments if the players fail to abide by these disadvantages (lost XP or something?); and why is duty -10 but sense of duty -5? Doesn't that mean the GM has to make sure the PC gets awkward orders from the Baron roughly twice as often as the PC comes across abandoned infants needing succoured? Or even worse, would it have to be generally agreed at the table that the hassle imposed by the Baron is roughly twice as bad as the hassle of having to help innocents? And doesn't that all just massively get in the way of the game?

Then there's Area Knowledge; this came up because I was looking at GURPS Traveller and each world was recommended to be a separate Area Knowledge, and your merchant got hugely penalised for not having it. OK, so unless you blow all your points on Area Knowledges, you will be trading among 2 or 3 worlds. Which might be "realistic" but again seems unnecessarily restrictive and annoying.

To which I imagine the response will be (because I've had it on other forums), "just don't sweat it". But the stuff is written there on the character sheet. "Don't sweat it" essentially means ignore the rules. Maybe just play another game altogether then..?

GURPS is very much a game where you need to write it down if you want to have it.  Some people prefer to just assume basic knowlege but then you just run into arguments with th DM on what basic knowledge includes.  Personally I like it set in stone.  The sense of duty to innocents is cheaper because it's a small group.  The duty to the lord would be "often or 12-" probably I'd have to check a book.  And yes, failure to play your disadvantages costs you a point or two of experience for that session.  Really, it's the only version of points for roleplaying I like because as a GM it gives me something concrete I can cite when applying it.

One thing I think people miss is that many advantages and disadvantages are actually narrative currency which the player uses to include things they want in the game.  Want a lover?  Take a Dependant.  Want a kindly mentor to learn spells from take a Contact or a Patron.  GURPS is actually a narrativist game not a simulationist one.

Really I did leave out some minutiea like equipment, weapon damages and defense rolls, I'll go back and add them in just to be fair.

Quote from: Morlock;1120221Or, "sell me on your version of GURPS." I'm not what I would call familiar with GURPS, though I have skimmed here and there. One thing that really kills it for me is the aesthetics. I'm an aesthetics whore, I admit it. I prefer good-looking RPGs with high production values. And GURPS is ugly.

Hate to say it but you are part of the reason why RPGs are so expensive now.