https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxh6flebxe4 - I thought this was pretty interesting.
Quote from: S'mon;814182https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxh6flebxe4 - I thought this was pretty interesting.
I liked it. It was good to get Desborough's side of the story. I wonder if Zak and/or Mandy might consider going on the show. They seem to have some interesting things to say about the PC moral brigade.
It was interesting, but I always get itchy when exposed to one side's PoV solely, even if its a side I agree with, ultimately. I generally prefer debates and exchanges of opposing PoV, as I think echo-chambers generally lead to entropy.
I thought the most important point made in the whole broadcast is the that really the best way to deal with people like Sarkeesian and Wu is to not pay them any attention.
Quote from: TristramEvans;814210I thought the most important point made in the whole broadcast is the that really the best way to deal with people like Sarkeesian and Wu is to not pay them any attention.
Ignoring them only makes it worse. That's how we got here in the first place. That's how rpg.net turned into such a shithole. Pay attention, and they claim harassment, ignore them, and they keep expanding.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814219Ignoring them only makes it worse. That's how we got here in the first place. That's how rpg.net turned into such a shithole. Pay attention, and they claim harassment, ignore them, and they keep expanding.
By ignore, I don't mean "allow to get into a position of authority". I ignore Sarah Palin too.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814196I liked it. It was good to get Desborough's side of the story. I wonder if Zak and/or Mandy might consider going on the show. They seem to have some interesting things to say about the PC moral brigade.
I hadn't forgiven Zak for calling James sexist base on what his friends had told him. That just pisses me off that Zak did that. The whole, "Well my friends told me so it must be true," is something I find pretty ignorant. My friends told me things and guess what? They were wrong. Hell I been wrong some times and told my friends which they proved I was wrong. Point is friends do make errors and unwise judgements.
Quote from: TristramEvans;814210It was interesting, but I always get itchy when exposed to one side's PoV solely, even if its a side I agree with, ultimately. I generally prefer debates and exchanges of opposing PoV, as I think echo-chambers generally lead to entropy.
Yeah.
I got into an informative argument over Ettin the RPGnet mod with someone on a site unrelated to RPGs. It was good to get pushback, even if it stings at first. Other perspectives are important and keep the analysis level-headed.
Still don't really trust Ettin though.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;814230Still don't really trust Ettin though.
Why would you trust an Ettin (http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/210/9/7/Ettin_by_Lyvangelus.jpg)? It's a two headed troll for gods' sakes.
Quote from: TristramEvans;814220By ignore, I don't mean "allow to get into a position of authority". I ignore Sarah Palin too.
I'm seriously curious what your approach would be in that case. Because it's the kind of thing that's been on my mind a lot since the Atheism Plus kerfuffle.
I don't want to censor people or create echo chambers myself, but this SJW-faux-progressive crowd seem to have a pretty strong track record of getting into positions of authority and remaking social spaces to their liking.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814235I'm seriously curious what your approach would be in that case. Because it's the kind of thing that's been on my mind a lot since the Atheism Plus kerfuffle.
I don't want to censor people or create echo chambers myself, but this SJW-faux-progressive crowd seem to have a pretty strong track record of getting into positions of authority and remaking social spaces to their liking.
I think it's a combination of ignoring their rants and (vocally) deflating them and not taking them seriously. I'll admit, its a bit of a struggle for me as well. I think a serious push-back needs to happen, especially in regards to the education system. Part of that means shunning/being dismissive rather than treating them like they're opinion is equally valid or even worthy of debate. But I don't have a perfect answer. I just know that people like Sarkeesian feed on controversy and get off on people making a big deal about the stupid stuff she says. Engaging her directly, threatening, or even making a big deal debating her points is just playing her game.
Quote from: TristramEvans;814236I think it's a combination of ignoring their rants and (vocally) deflating them and not taking them seriously. I'll admit, its a bit of a struggle for me as well. I think a serious push-back needs to happen, especially in regards to the education system. Part of that means shunning/being dismissive rather than treating them like they're opinion is equally valid or even worthy of debate. But I don't have a perfect answer. I just know that people like Sarkeesian feed on controversy and get off on people making a big deal about the stupid stuff she says. Engaging her directly, threatening, or even making a big deal debating her points is just playing her game.
She and the other progressives do not want to engage in an actual debate of their belief system. It's why they need the hate to shield themselves from criticism. I think it's why there is suspicion that they can send threats to themselves. Because how they engage with criticism is to point out HATE and then ignore the actual person trying to engage with them.
Quote from: Ulairi;814238She and the other progressives do not want to engage in an actual debate of their belief system. It's why they need the hate to shield themselves from criticism. I think it's why there is suspicion that they can send threats to themselves. Because how they engage with criticism is to point out HATE and then ignore the actual person trying to engage with them.
And avoiding having to deal with real criticism by deflecting with cries of oppression works all too often, which is why it won't work. Mudslinging wins elections, not nuanced debates.
Make light of them or ridicule them and that's when they go positively ape, because going from victim to clown is something they can't just scream shrill away. Everything they do just reinforces the stereotype at that point, so it has to be stamped out before it catches on. Once your movement has gone from "fighting oppression" to "ludicrous laughingstock" it's a tough road back, and it's the one thing that can genuinely destroy them.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions -- Thomas Jefferson.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;814240And avoiding having to deal with real criticism by deflecting with cries of oppression works all too often, which is why it won't work. Mudslinging wins elections, not nuanced debates.
Make light of them or ridicule them and that's when they go positively ape, because going from victim to clown is something they can't just scream shrill away. Everything they do just reinforces the stereotype at that point, so it has to be stamped out before it catches on. Once your movement has gone from "fighting oppression" to "ludicrous laughingstock" it's a tough road back, and it's the one thing that can genuinely destroy them.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions -- Thomas Jefferson.
How they combat that is by trying to call people horrible names. Because most gamers are good people. They are not racists, they are not homophobic, they don't hate anybody. They just want to have fun playing games with their friends. So, they scare people into silence by immediately calling people horrible names.
That BadgerPod dog avatar used is so cute! Squee! :teehee:
Quote from: Ulairi;814252How they combat that is by trying to call people horrible names. Because most gamers are good people. They are not racists, they are not homophobic, they don't hate anybody. They just want to have fun playing games with their friends. So, they scare people into silence by immediately calling people horrible names.
And they should be - nay must be - mocked mercilessly for doing so.
I agree there's a chilling effect to this kind of rhetoric, but after a point it's Boy Who Cried Wolf. When
everyone's racist, no one is.
It's people taking them seriously that lets them scare people into silence. Put the big rubber nose on them and that goes away.
Quote from: Opaopajr;814256That BadgerPod dog avatar used is so cute! Squee! :teehee:
Yes! That was my first thought too! That dog is adorable.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;814260I agree there's a chilling effect to this kind of rhetoric, but after a point it's Boy Who Cried Wolf. When everyone's racist, no one is.
This is arguably what happened with gamergate. They made too many sweeping attacks against too many interconnected groups. Perfectly decent people who had always tried to be considerate and normally would never have questioned the victim story found themselves thinking, "Hold on a sec, how am I the villain now!?" Then the outrage brigade doubled down with publicly conflating these average people with the vilest sort of misogynists and Klansmen and such at every opportunity.
It was disturbing, really, to realize that even talking about your actual experiences in a moderately skeptical manner could get you permanently smeared out of some venues. Even saying what I just said was a crime: "think of all the women being threatened with death you insensitive prick", as if I implicitly approved of that horrible harassment!
While gamergate will (has?) faded, it was still a crucial eye-opening experience for a lot of people who had always assumed the boy who cried wolf was on the level. This conversation is only heating up. It's starting to hit the op-ed pages of the NYT for instance.
A pity this is going down in such a manner, a lot of women and minorities who are really suffering from injustice are going to get lost in the shuffle.
I was there when it was live and participated in the chatroom. Not that anyone here would be surprised, but my supplemental information on the tabletop RPG scene vis-a-vis SocJus cultists did catch some folks off-guard. (Can't blame them; folks tend to ignore what's not in their face or known to be in their interests.) At least one of the Badgers did dig into Fred Hicks' flipping out over Gamergate, so there may be further tabletop RPG talk in future podcasts.
What's the difference between GamerGate and fundamentalist Islam? Liberals will give Muslims the benefit of the doubt.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;814273What's the difference between GamerGate and fundamentalist Islam? Liberals will give Muslims the benefit of the doubt.
JG
Also if you're a Radical Islamic Terrorist, you're not actually Islamic, you're an individual, but if you're a card-carrying member of Stormfront/MRA sites you're considered the default Gamergater, not a radical outsider.
Also Gamergaters have done a lot more to identify and call out the virtual bombthrowers in their midst, than moderate muslims have done to the real bombthrowers in theirs.
Quote from: CRKrueger;814276Also if you're a Radical Islamic Terrorist, you're not actually Islamic, you're an individual, but if you're a card-carrying member of Stormfront/MRA sites you're considered the default Gamergater, not a radical outsider.
Also Gamergaters have done a lot more to identify and call out the virtual bombthrowers in their midst, than moderate muslims have done to the real bombthrowers in theirs.
Well, no. Islam is obviously a larger movement. So there's a lot MORE Muslims who have called out the literal bombthrowers but in media terms they seem like a drop in the bucket.
By the same token, in media terms, GamerGate would be a tempest in a teapot if the targets in the media weren't so personally offended by the accusations. Which gets back to my point: The real issue is not that certain people in a group do X, it's that the actions are interpreted differently by people with an agenda.
JG
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;814270It was disturbing, really, to realize that even talking about your actual experiences in a moderately skeptical manner could get you permanently smeared out of some venues. Even saying what I just said was a crime: "think of all the women being threatened with death you insensitive prick", as if I implicitly approved of that horrible harassment!
While gamergate will (has?) faded, it was still a crucial eye-opening experience for a lot of people who had always assumed the boy who cried wolf was on the level. This conversation is only heating up. It's starting to hit the op-ed pages of the NYT for instance.
In some ways, encouraging these ersatz feminists would be the best way to undo them. Their reach is beginning to exceed their grasp. The more they tighten their grip, the more star systems will slip through their fingers.
If I wanted to make a concentrated effort to destroy the movement, I'd go undercover as one of the most radical and outspoken members they ever had.
QuoteA pity this is going down in such a manner, a lot of women and minorities who are really suffering from injustice are going to get lost in the shuffle.
Yeah, that's the worst part of extremists like this, that they do their own professed causes more harm than good. That problems exist is true, but their dishonesty about the scope and scale of the problem, their diagnosis of the causes, and their proposed remedies often are so off-putting that it makes people dismiss the premise of social problems entirely. This does no one any good.
Quote from: James Gillen;814277Well, no. Islam is obviously a larger movement. So there's a lot MORE Muslims who have called out the literal bombthrowers but in media terms they seem like a drop in the bucket.
By the same token, in media terms, GamerGate would be a tempest in a teapot if the targets in the media weren't so personally offended by the accusations. Which gets back to my point: The real issue is not that certain people in a group do X, it's that the actions are interpreted differently by people with an agenda.
That reminds me.
Does it not seem odd to any of you that ABC's Nightline, as did The Colbert Report before it, gave significant airtime to Sark and let her go on about her bullshit victim narrative? While there are prosaic motives (mainstream media is as driven by click-bait as videogame media, due to both being ad-revenue dependent), it's so rare to see such attention given to something so trivial outside the scene. (And now? A new episode of
Law & Order: Special Victims Unit will be based on Sark's narrative. Come on.)
Sark, McIntosh, and the other anti-GG figures are all trust-fund babies based out of the SF Bay bubble; they have connections via social and family to the mainstream media, so I'm thinking that there's a certain level of back-scratching going on here that transcends the stupidity of game journalists that sparked this whole thing- that not only is this corruption present at all levels, but that it's inter-laced and self-protecting to a certain degree.
And yes, I do point out in Honey Badger chats that this is the case.
By comparison, dealing with the SocJus cultists in on our own block is easy; we can just (a) point out their hypocrisy, (b) mock them for it, and (c) suggest not engaging in the few ways that their BS narratives can push into our scene (i.e. discouraging Organized Play in favor of home games, esp. w/ the new online tools that allow for playing at a distance; D&D has a category at Twitch, so folks do stream tabletop RPGs now, and this is a great thing.).
Oh, and we can just make our own things that we think are fun and share them. That's a lot easier for us than for the boardgame and videogame scenes, so we should keep at that.
Quote from: James Gillen;814277Well, no. Islam is obviously a larger movement. So there's a lot MORE Muslims who have called out the literal bombthrowers but in media terms they seem like a drop in the bucket.
By the same token, in media terms, GamerGate would be a tempest in a teapot if the targets in the media weren't so personally offended by the accusations. Which gets back to my point: The real issue is not that certain people in a group do X, it's that the actions are interpreted differently by people with an agenda.
JG
You're right in sheer numbers, I meant percentage, the average Gemergater is pretty vocal against the shitlords, the average moderate muslim isn't as vociferous in public.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;814278If I wanted to make a concentrated effort to destroy the movement, I'd go undercover as one of the most radical and outspoken members they ever had.
If it's good enough for the CIA and FBI, it's good enough for us. :p
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;814281If it's good enough for the CIA and FBI, it's good enough for us. :p
Eh, if we use the CIA for a model, the US would be renamed The Matriarchy of Feministan within 5 years.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;814283Eh, if we use the CIA for a model, the US would be renamed The Matriarchy of Feministan within 5 years.
Instead of the current estimate of 8? :D
Quote from: Doctor Jest;814260It's people taking them seriously that lets them scare people into silence. Put the big rubber nose on them and that goes away.
Agreed. Humor is the most dangerous weapon against any group that decides it has the monopoly on the Truth.
"Radical feminism is just Patriarchy in lipstick."
Best line in the whole podcast.
Quote from: jeff37923;814335"Radical feminism is just Patriarchy in lipstick."
Best line in the whole podcast.
Its funny, I've seen that basic accusation tossed at different schools of feminism at others for years too. Its definitely not a monolithic movement.
Quote from: Nexus;814337Its definitely not a monolithic movement.
Yes, this is important to always keep in mind too. We must acknowledge nuance in the groups we sometimes disagree with if we are going to ask them to acknowledge nuance in their critics.
If James' is to be believed, his game was pretty innocuous (no slurs, no pro-rape, etc.). So Fred Hicks getting it banned is pretty low if that's true.
James sadly has a habit of foot in mouth disease though, which doesn't help things. He recently got into it on a Facebook conversation and yelled at J Achilli of being better when he was on Coke...
J Achilli hasn't even really come out in terms of being pro progressive or anti-progressive, and was must calling James out on acting like a douche, so it was a really uncalled for attack and didn't help his cause any.
Quote from: Snowman0147;814222I hadn't forgiven Zak for calling James sexist base on what his friends had told him. That just pisses me off that Zak did that. The whole, "Well my friends told me so it must be true," is something I find pretty ignorant. My friends told me things and guess what? They were wrong. Hell I been wrong some times and told my friends which they proved I was wrong. Point is friends do make errors and unwise judgements.
That was... odd. He claimed he was listening to women about things that affected women but only the opinion of a certain group of women seemed to matter. I mean I don't know about Desborough's game but he also mentioned Gor as being definitely offensive to women mainly because his friends didn't like it and there probably hundreds if not more women that like the series (one of them is a friend and gaming companion of mine).
Quote from: Nexus;814337Its funny, I've seen that basic accusation tossed at different schools of feminism at others for years too. Its definitely not a monolithic movement.
Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone,
especially a woman decide they don't want to
be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814370Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone, especially a woman decide they don't want to be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.
While this is often true, I would not say it is close to a universal experience.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814370Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone, especially a woman decide they don't want to be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.
That's not an uncommon reaction for large sociopolitical groups so I can't lay it at totally at Feminism's feet. And I've seen dissenters though the call themselves feminists getting pilloried as much as "outsiders" more than a few times. The different schools of feminist thought can be really harsh with each other especially the particularly self righteous version of Feminism that currently in style Online.
Quote from: Nexus;814390That's not an uncommon reaction for large sociopolitical groups so I can't lay it at totally at Feminism's feet.
Oh, I don't either. Insert buzzwords and catchphrases like "in group preference" and "tribalism" here.
My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level, and they'll drag out the silly dictionary definition of feminism to "prove" it. Like some dogmatic axiom that the idea of feminism is sacrosanct.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814400Oh, I don't either. Insert buzzwords and catchphrases like "in group preference" and "tribalism" here.
My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level, and they'll drag out the silly dictionary definition of feminism to "prove" it. Like some dogmatic axiom that the idea of feminism is sacrosanct.
Yeah, I don't think you can deny that there is a certain almost religious zealotry among the Feminist movements more vocal adherents and advocates, especially the SJW flavor. Feminism (their particular brand, of course but any will do in a pinch) is the way and the light that will guide humanity into a new age of peace and universal sisterhood (The Matriarchy?).
Hell, I've noticed it in my friend of several years that recently "taken up the faith". You cannot question, you cannot doubt or even illustrate how anything labeled "Feminist thought, theory or paradigm" might have any downsides or be even slightly "Problematic" unless you want a rage fueled fight on your hands.
Honestly, the most reasonable Feminists I've talked to have been women around my age that don't seem as caught up in the Crusade as the more online types. Some refuse to call themelves Feminists in spite of agreeing with the basic premises as they find the public face of current Feminism off putting.
Quote from: Nexus;814403Yeah, I don't think you can deny that there is a certain almost religious zealotry among the Feminist movements more vocal adherents and advocates, especially the SJW flavor. Feminism (their particular brand, of course but any will do in a pinch) is the way and the light that will guide humanity into a new age of peace and universal sisterhood (The Matriarchy?).
Well ultimately every zealot seeks to attach their egos and energy to an "infallible" principle that will outlive them so they can stave off the terror of personal oblivion. Questioning that infallibility (or especially its inevitability) is a direct attack on their coping mechanism. I'm not surprised such people get extremely upset.
To me the religious comparison is spot on, as I personally went through a phase like that with leftist agendas as my crutch/church. I'm still an atheist by logic, not by choice. Say all you want about the freedom to create your own meaning, I'd rather have a god looking out for me in some unfathomable way. :(
Quote from: Ratman_tf;814400My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level
That was displayed pretty clearly in the interview that Karen Straughan did recently with Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks. I think the interview was even mentioned in this particular session. He absolutely lost it when he couldn't get her to agree with him that feminism was mostly a good thing and there are just some extremists giving it a bad name.
As for the HB Nerdcasts, I'd love to see them get some people from the other side on the show. A debate between Desborough and Fred Hicks could be really entertaining as long they both keep their cool (which is probably unlikely).
Quote from: Nexus;814403Honestly, the most reasonable Feminists I've talked to have been women around my age that don't seem as caught up in the Crusade as the more online types. Some refuse to call themelves Feminists in spite of agreeing with the basic premises as they find the public face of current Feminism off putting.
A lot of people (namely feminists) ask, "Why do so many intelligent, active women, who wouldn't have their opportunities without feminism, refuse to call themselves feminist?" Maybe for the same reason that a lot of us who are pro-abortion rights, pro-gay rights and pro-health care refuse to call themselves "liberal."
JG
Does this belong in the RPG discussion board? It seems like another political thread.
Note: I don't mind political discussion but I like having it separated from gaming as we do here.
Quote from: jhkim;814474Does this belong in the RPG discussion board? It seems like another political thread.
Note: I don't mind political discussion but I like having it separated from gaming as we do here.
Seems like Grim can no longer be discussed without the 800lb gorilla in the room.
Sad really.
He is an industry figure though, so i'll keep it here for now. I haven't watched the video and i'm not going to, but if folk want to keep the thread here, maybe you could concentrate on the gaming elements of it rather than the gamergate controversy.
It is kind of funny, you know, how the some of these detractors of certain figures in our hobby (Desborough, Zak S, Raggi, the Pundit etc) seem almost obsessed.
These complaints sure bring a lot of awareness of them. Yet, I wonder if many hobbyists would have ever been aware otherwise. I know that personally I had never even heard of any of these figures, nor of their works, had I not read all of the outrage by people on sites like SA.
If they really wanted to diminish the reputation of these people, they should've just ignored them or wrote negative reviews and left it at that. All of their outrage has pretty much been free publicity. Sort of like those speakers in high school who are like, "sex and drugs are bad! Here's lots and lots of details about them!" And a lot of kids end up going "wow, maybe I should try some of that".
Shrug.
The Streisand Effect is real, and we are wise to make it work for us.
I think that, on our end, the best thing we can do is to show how traditional tabletop role-playing games are the antidote for all this SocJus cultism crap- and not by deliberately crafting games or campaigns attacking them. No, just by doing what we do when we do it, as if nothing out of the ordinary had ever happened. In other words, by treating them as people like we already do- and letting them benefit or suffer from their own behaviors, just as we do.
If someone wants to dislike a game, let's say just to pick a random example, Jame's #gamergate card game. That's fine. I dislike a ton of stuff.
But I think this shows the inevitable politicizing, and the pressures towards RightThink. It was a game that didn't portray GG as evil, baby munching monsters and antis as blameless heroes. And that just can't be borne.
This shit has already been said about the SJW issue. One can't have a discussion about the finer points of morality or responsibility, or freedom with someone who wants to reduce everything down to "muh-soggy-knees!".
One Horse Town, I appreciate that you want to keep the topic on gaming, but I don't think we can ignore the 800lb gorillia in the room when it keeps jumping on the table and beating it's chest when these events go down...
Quote from: James Gillen;814469A lot of people (namely feminists) ask, "Why do so many intelligent, active women, who wouldn't have their opportunities without feminism, refuse to call themselves feminist?" Maybe for the same reason that a lot of us who are pro-abortion rights, pro-gay rights and pro-health care refuse to call themselves "liberal."
JG
I know the feeling.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;814539No, just by doing what we do when we do it, as if nothing out of the ordinary had ever happened.
Yes, SJWs tend to thrive on opposition as well as capitulation. Being completely ignored is what they really can't stand. Of course when they are deforming the industry by eg getting games banned it may be best to oppose that. But in general the best revenge is living well - accept that there are bad crazy people out there, but don't let their twisted worldview affect your own life.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;814539The Streisand Effect is real, and we are wise to make it work for us.
I had no idea what the Streisand Effect may have been. Here's the link for anyone else who may be confused by the reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Has the Honey Badger Brigade ever specifically address rpg.net?
Quote from: Nexus;816226Has the Honey Badger Brigade ever specifically address rpg.net?
Not that I know of. Then again, I don't really know why they would, the site is becoming more and more meaningless as time goes on.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;816227Then again, I don't really know why they would, the site is becoming more and more meaningless as time goes on.
I know we like to say this, but how true is it really? They sure look pretty busy. I don't have the fancy internet skills to really check numbers though.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816233I know we like to say this, but how true is it really? They sure look pretty busy. I don't have the fancy internet skills to really check numbers though.
rpg.net stats on Alexa:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rpg.net
For comparison, therpgsite.com on Alexa:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/therpgsite.com
Enworld.org on Alexa
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/enworld.org
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;816234rpg.net stats on Alexa:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rpg.net
For comparison, therpgsite.com on Alexa:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/therpgsite.com
Enworld.org on Alexa
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/enworld.org
Weee, thanks! That's a useful tool right there. :)
Now to make all three look even more irrelevant:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/community.wizards.com
Seriously though, what the heck happened to rpgnet right after July last year!?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816236Weee, thanks! That's a useful tool right there. :)
Now to make all three look even more irrelevant:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/community.wizards.com
Seriously though, what the heck happened to rpgnet right after July last year!?
I can't think of anything but that is a Hell of a drop off.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816236Seriously though, what the heck happened to rpgnet right after July last year!?
They shat all over 5e and were involved in a campaign against 2 people that Mearls & WotC hired as consultants.
Quote from: One Horse Town;816248They shat all over 5e and were involved in a campaign against 2 people that Mearls & WotC hired as consultants.
Christ, could that mess really have had that much of an impact!?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816252Christ, could that mess really have had that much of an impact!?
Dunno, but the timeline fits.
It's also when I got permabanned...
Hmmmmmm.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816252Christ, could that mess really have had that much of an impact!?
It has much more validity than Will's desperate ego masturbation.
In case anyone is nearly as bitchy or fucking stupid as Jeff (I'm honestly unsure of which), I was, of course, joking.
Quote from: Will;816265In case anyone is nearly as bitchy or fucking stupid as Jeff (I'm honestly unsure of which), I was, of course, joking.
Rolls to disbelieve. :D
EDIT: OK, then. Some serious questions - Why in the fuck would you post something as self-serving as that? RPGNet traffic takes a major dip and you "jokingly" say that it is because you were banned? If it was a joke, then why are you being so sensitive about it?
Quote from: jeff37923;816271Rolls to disbelieve. :D
EDIT: OK, then. Some serious questions - Why in the fuck would you post something as self-serving as that? RPGNet traffic takes a major dip and you "jokingly" say that it is because you were banned? If it was a joke, then why are you being so sensitive about it?
Because you nailed the truth and Will doesn't want to admit that.
Edit: Still that drop is amazing. I guess this is what happen when you piss off your audience that actually play role playing games.
Quote from: Snowman0147;816281Edit: Still that drop is amazing. I guess this is what happen when you piss off your audience that actually play role playing games.
That is the important thing. If the Powers That Be over at RPGNet actually paid attention to their website traffic and were concerned about what brought in revenue, they might become more anti-SJW in the culture over there.
Quote from: jeff37923;816282That is the important thing. If the Powers That Be over at RPGNet actually paid attention to their website traffic and were concerned about what brought in revenue, they might become more anti-SJW in the culture over there.
They'll always have Tangency.
That line was a lot funnier in my head than it reads in black and white. Try imagining the mod of your choice and Shannon Applecline dressing up like Bogie and Bergman and acting out scenes from Casablanca.
"We'll always have Tangency."
Quote from: Snowman0147;816281Because you nailed the truth and Will doesn't want to admit that.
You honestly think that I think I was so critical to rpg.net that there was wailing and gnashing of teeth when I left? REALLY??
And you think I'm so stupid I'd believe that would actually fly as a theory here?
Wow.
I didn't realize you were as fucking gone as Jeff. Now I know! (Cue rainbow)
Quote from: Bren;816286They'll always have Tangency.
That line was a lot funnier in my head than it reads in black and white. Try imagining the mod of your choice and Shannon Applecline dressing up like Bogie and Bergman and acting out scenes from Casablanca.
"We'll always have Tangency."
"Don't ask, its Purpletown."
I DO think the last few years have seen a series of purges for ideological purity in RPG.net, and have predicted a general narrowing -- you will get crazier and crazier shitheads the mods like, the mods will get wrapped up in tighter control freakitis, and all the reasonable people leave or are banned.
I'm just surprised to see a sharp edge to the decline.
Quote from: Bren;816286They'll always have Tangency.
That line was a lot funnier in my head than it reads in black and white. Try imagining the mod of your choice and Shannon Applecline dressing up like Bogie and Bergman and acting out scenes from Casablanca.
"We'll always have Tangency."
Quote from: Nexus;816289"Don't ask, its Purpletown."
I laughed. :)
Quote from: Will;816287You honestly think that I think I was so critical to rpg.net that there was wailing and gnashing of teeth when I left? REALLY??
And you think I'm so stupid I'd believe that would actually fly as a theory here?
As a joke you suggesting that your own departure was the turning point wasn't funny. Now if someone else had suggested that your departure was the turning point that probably would have been funny.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816236Seriously though, what the heck happened to rpgnet right after July last year!?
If I had to guess, summer vacation. Checking for similar patterns in other years could support or disprove that theory.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816236Seriously though, what the heck happened to rpgnet right after July last year!?
ENWorld had a similar dip at the same time. They both trended down and then trended back up. Make of that what you will.
Quote from: Opaopajr;816293I laughed. :)
So did I.
Quote from: Will;816287You honestly think that I think I was so critical to rpg.net that there was wailing and gnashing of teeth when I left? REALLY??
And you think I'm so stupid I'd believe that would actually fly as a theory here?
Wow.
I didn't realize you were as fucking gone as Jeff. Now I know! (Cue rainbow)
There seems to be a consensus that
you think that you were critical to RPGNet. :huhsign:
Quote from: jeff37923;816303There seems to be a consensus that you think that you were critical to RPGNet. :huhsign:
Give a rest. I don't even like the guy and I think you're being an asshole.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;816305Give a rest. I don't even like the guy and I think you're being an asshole.
OK, I will lay off.
The Honey Badgers are far more about dealing with SocJus cultism than TRPGs, but they are open to it as part of the Nerdcast (as the appearance of James shows), but I would think that a follow-up on that episode will have to be pitched to them and a successful pitch will need to include some other tabletop elements (board and card games, specificially, but miniature wargames can be part of a good pitch). Throw them a line and see if they're up for it.
Quote from: jeff37923;816282That is the important thing. If the Powers That Be over at RPGNet actually paid attention to their website traffic and were concerned about what brought in revenue, they might become more anti-SJW in the culture over there.
Given that they're now back higher than they were, they're evidently doing something right for their audience. If part of their audience left as a result of the consultant flap, it was evidently a part of the audience that was holding them back.
Quote from: Ladybird;816335Given that they're now back higher than they were, they're evidently doing something right for their audience. If part of their audience left as a result of the consultant flap, it was evidently a part of the audience that was holding them back.
I'd love to know how much of their traffic is Tangency compared to the other boards.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;816300ENWorld had a similar dip at the same time. They both trended down and then trended back up. Make of that what you will.
The 4e fan freakout against 5e and the consultants apparently spilled over to Enworld and other fora. So might have drove people off for a time or bannings?
Quote from: Ladybird;816335Given that they're now back higher than they were, they're evidently doing something right for their audience. If part of their audience left as a result of the consultant flap, it was evidently a part of the audience that was holding them back.
Or more likely as talk moved to actually talking about 5e rather than pissing on it. They drew back members and attracted more curious about 5e or the whole blowup even.
The 'summer vacation' idea is, frankly, the most likely. I've seen it in other online venues.
Quote from: Will;816370The 'summer vacation' idea is, frankly, the most likely. I've seen it in other online venues.
Maybe. Quite frankly, we just don't have the information on hand to make anything more than idle guesses.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;816403Maybe. Quite frankly, we just don't have the information on hand to make anything more than idle guesses.
It should be possible to get the traffic data for prior years, though I don't myself know how to get access to that data. If we see similar drops for the same sites over the summer months in previous years then we don't need to look for another explanation for the 2014 drop.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;816341I'd love to know how much of their traffic is Tangency compared to the other boards.
So would I.
Honestly and as much as enjoy the thought its probably way to early to bury TBP. Its big site, its been around forever and you can still manage there if you tread lightly (or two the official line). I am of the opinion that, if not a majority, a significant number of the posters there are there due to habit, nostalgia and inertia or in spite of its current atmosphere not because of it.
I was increasingly unhappy with the place for a few years, but there are several cool communities there, provided you can keep out from under the burning Eye of the moderators.
Other Media and Video Games Open have some cool folks and discussions, and don't overheat too often.
To get a different perspective I looked at google trends:
http://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=rpg.net%2C%20enworld%2C%20wizards.com&date=1%2F2010%2062m&cmpt=q&tz=
Very different picture than Alexa. I put in en world and wizards.com as two other points of reference, but I'm sure someone else can come up with a better comparison than myself. :)
I dunno, the Alexa chart seems to me that after a huge drop in summer, TBP traffic picked up higher than ever. Based on my lurking on RPG.net members' Facebook page, my guess is that that level of interest is based on people checking to see who's been banned each week. :D
JG
Quote from: Iron_Rain;816483To get a different perspective I looked at google trends:
http://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=rpg.net%2C%20enworld%2C%20wizards.com&date=1%2F2010%2062m&cmpt=q&tz=
Very different picture than Alexa. I put in en world and wizards.com as two other points of reference, but I'm sure someone else can come up with a better comparison than myself. :)
Interesting. The trend is quite different. Also, I don't see any "vacation effect."
Ok, so now the real question: How do we get therpgsite to surpass all those losers? :D
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816519Ok, so now the real question: How do we get therpgsite to surpass all those loser? :D
Full Frontal nudity!
Hmm. Probably by having more 'stuff.' I mean, RPG.net has a very visually interesting front end, links to products, news, columns, reviews, etc.
While TheRPGSite is more... basic web forum.
RPGnet has ads...for websites featuring scantifly clad women and boobies. In the name of safespaces.
Quote from: Bren;816543RPGnet has ads...for websites featuring scantifly clad women and boobies. In the name of safespaces.
They had on for this website as well for a while. That one should probably be resurrected.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816252Christ, could that mess really have had that much of an impact!?
Yup.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816519Ok, so now the real question: How do we get therpgsite to surpass all those losers? :D
New ad campaign: "TheRpgSite: a safe space for people who fucking hate safe spaces"
Quote from: TristramEvans;817351New ad campaign: "TheRpgSite: a safe space for people who fucking hate safe spaces"
A safe space to say "Jane, you ignorant slut."
JG
The main difference, aside from the fact that something like half of rpgnet's volume is COMPLETELY unrelated to RPGs, is the fact that both those sites are a lot older than theRPGsite. It's unlikely that inertia can ever be overcome, as such. theRPGsite gets bigger as both those other guys get crappier, but would only explode in size if rpgnet or enworld were to completely disappear.
Quote from: RPGPundit;817517The main difference, aside from the fact that something like half of rpgnet's volume is COMPLETELY unrelated to RPGs, is the fact that both those sites are a lot older than theRPGsite. It's unlikely that inertia can ever be overcome, as such. theRPGsite gets bigger as both those other guys get crappier, but would only explode in size if rpgnet or enworld were to completely disappear.
There are two boards for RPGs, four if you count AP and PbP boards. That's out of what, over a dozen total?
I think saying half of their volume is RPGs is being uncharacteristically kind.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;817558There are two boards for RPGs, four if you count AP and PbP boards. That's out of what, over a dozen total?
I think saying half of their volume is RPGs is being uncharacteristically kind.
Tangency is so much a share of the volume that there are users who post there, never read gaming threads, and don't play (and never have) RPGs.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;817562Tangency is so much a share of the volume that there are users who post there, never read gaming threads, and don't play (and never have) RPGs.
Those are the mods, right? :D
I remember in rpgnet General one time, a poster was utterly shocked when I said I didn't read rpgnet Tangency and had no interest in what went on there. For her it was the site's
raison d'etre.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;817558There are two boards for RPGs, four if you count AP and PbP boards. That's out of what, over a dozen total?
The post counts are public.
RPG Boards: 7,518,876 posts
All Other Boards: 7,653,700 posts
(This does not include Trouble Tickets or the Reviews forums. Although the 54,000 posts in the Reviews forum are probably predominantly RPG-related.)
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817587The post counts are public.
RPG Boards: 7,518,876 posts
All Other Boards: 7,653,700 posts
(This does not include Trouble Tickets or the Reviews forums. Although the 54,000 posts in the Reviews forum are probably predominantly RPG-related.)
I very much stand corrected.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817587The post counts are public.
RPG Boards: 7,518,876 posts
All Other Boards: 7,653,700 posts
(This does not include Trouble Tickets or the Reviews forums. Although the 54,000 posts in the Reviews forum are probably predominantly RPG-related.)
Out of curiosity, what's the count for Tangency?
(I don't think it is publicly available since Tangency itself is not.)
While it may chafe from time to time, I think the decision not to have an off-topic board here is a very very very good idea.
I long thought that Tangency was a pestilence on Rpg.net. For a while I changed my mind, but now ... more certain than ever. ;)
Quote from: S'mon;817581For her it was the site's raison d'etre.
At this point, she's correct.
Quote from: Will;817650While it may chafe from time to time, I think the decision not to have an off-topic board here is a very very very good idea.
I long thought that Tangency was a pestilence on Rpg.net. For a while I changed my mind, but now ... more certain than ever. ;)
Tangency always struck me as the law of unintended consequences in action.
While I can't say for certain what they were thinking, I seem to recall in the early days of RPG.net that whenever something political or whatever would pop up, the mods (pre-banhammer era mods, that is) would come in and say "take it to tangency!".
It seemed to me that it was meant as a place to shove unwelcome and disruptive off-topic conversation so it could stay out of the actual game discussion.
Since then, the whole culture of the board has changed in a way that Tangency is a central draw of the site and spills into other forums frequently. It dominates rpg.net's forum culture in the exact ways I believe it was designed to prevent.
Agreed. I hope the mods are looking at all the TT threads they shot down 6-8 years ago suggesting Tangency get shut down and realize things. Probably not, though.
But we fucking told them.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816519Ok, so now the real question: How do we get therpgsite to surpass all those losers? :D
Content.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;817587The post counts are public.
RPG Boards: 7,518,876 posts
All Other Boards: 7,653,700 posts
(This does not include Trouble Tickets or the Reviews forums. Although the 54,000 posts in the Reviews forum are probably predominantly RPG-related.)
Yeah, but 100% of our 555,432 posts on our RPG subforum are even vaguely RPG-related (555,542 posts as of when I started writing this, less 110 posts for this thread), compared to 50% of their 15,152,576 posts being RPG-related, so clearly we're more influential, because 100 is a bigger number than 50 (Well, 49.6, but sod decimal places).
Or something.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;816252Christ, could that mess really have had that much of an impact!?
They imposed a ban on the topic as of August 4th (which is still stickied at the top of the TTRO page) so that might also have something to do with it.
I wish it was 100%.
But then people get into circle jerks about SJWs or grouse about rpg.net...
Oh crap!
Quote from: Will;816467I was increasingly unhappy with the place for a few years, but there are several cool communities there, provided you can keep out from under the burning Eye of the moderators.
Other Media and Video Games Open have some cool folks and discussions, and don't overheat too often.
VGO was the only reason I stayed as long as I did. I still sometimes miss the ready-made groups and guilds in MMOs the community there offered, but it's worth it to not have to sift through all the outrage threads about everything I enjoy serving as proof of my being an objectively terrible person for the occasional gem in which everyone finally put their fucking politics aside and just talked about the goddamn game.
'Course, lending credence to Pundit's earlier point, I also posted almost exclusively to that one board. I couldn't have posted in TTO more than five times, maximum, and I stayed well clear of Tangency even before I started rolling my eyes at the incessant moralistic grandstanding about operatic Russians and soggy knees. I've easily done more reading/posting about tabletop RPGs in the ~6 months I've been here than I did in nearly 9 years over at TBP.
Now I just need to find a tRPGS-style replacement for VGO so I have somewhere to learn about cool mid-tier/indie games that might otherwise fly under my radar again.
If you do, tell me, because VGO was also a big reason I liked TBP.
(Originally I joined there to talk about D&D and avoided Tang entirely. Then when 4e came and the place blasted down to molten glass, I wandered over to Tang with a big sigh, mostly got my gaming fix from VGO)
I've never visited the Tangency forum on rpg.net and only really read the DnD forum from time to time, sometimes glancing at the TTO forum.
If you stay out of the edition debates, The DnD forum can be useful at times, although I increasingly post here with questions, reflections on DnD stuff and other RPG stuff.
Apart from G+ communities, I read here for RPG stuff mostly.
Quote from: woodsmoke;817723VGO was the only reason I stayed as long as I did. I still sometimes miss the ready-made groups and guilds in MMOs the community there offered, but it's worth it to not have to sift through all the outrage threads about everything I enjoy serving as proof of my being an objectively terrible person for the occasional gem in which everyone finally put their fucking politics aside and just talked about the goddamn game.
'Course, lending credence to Pundit's earlier point, I also posted almost exclusively to that one board. I couldn't have posted in TTO more than five times, maximum, and I stayed well clear of Tangency even before I started rolling my eyes at the incessant moralistic grandstanding about operatic Russians and soggy knees. I've easily done more reading/posting about tabletop RPGs in the ~6 months I've been here than I did in nearly 9 years over at TBP.
Now I just need to find a tRPGS-style replacement for VGO so I have somewhere to learn about cool mid-tier/indie games that might otherwise fly under my radar again.
For me it was the PbP boards that kept me coming back. Hard to find a good pbp forum I like.
Strange, half of the reason I concentrated on Tangency was to avoid discussion of games that I either didn't like in the first place or knew perfectly well how to play.
JG
Quote from: Bren;817621Out of curiosity, what's the count for Tangency?
Tangency itself is 3.7 million posts.
Other Games, Video Games, and Other Media combine for 3.7 million.
Tabletop Roleplaying Open is 4.5 million. D&D adds another 900,000 to that. Roleplay-By-Post surprisingly adds 1.5 million.
Everything else is chicken feed.