Holy crap! Other forums have darlings. . .

[jdrakeh]

When posting on another forum about my disappointment with True20, I realized why I was disappointed with it. It was an  'ENWorld Darling' at the time of its release. . . it was the Be All End All of d20; easier to play than D&D, 100% compatible with all d20 products, capable of effortlessly emulating anything you could imagine. And I'll be damned if it was any of these things when I actually bought.

I didn't realize until now that my vast disappointment with the system had more to do with the misrepresentation by its devout fanbase, rather that the system itself. As a generic alternative to D&D, it works okay. It's not really any less complex, though it does open up a number of new avenues in character creation. That's cool. Unfortunately, that's not what I was pitched. I was pitched the d20 equivalent of Hero System, a 'do it all' tool-kit.

What I got was something more like the Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes variant with a crippled M&M power system tacked on to it. A cool idea that I probably would have loved if it had been pitched honestly. As it happens, I was just more focused on not getting the RPG Erector Set that I was promised by the salespeople (i.e. the fans).

This is part of why I appreciate Pundit. While he has a tendency to sometimes exaggerate the good points of things that he likes, he'll also nitpick their weak points in an effort to give a product a fair shake. He doesn't always succeed, though most fans don't even try. I kind of wish that he (Pundit) hadn't been banned from so many other forums.

If he hadn't been, I probably wouldn't be writing this post describing the second most disappointing RPG purchase for me in the last seven years.

[Consonant Dude]

I find that my best bet is to go for a sample of opinions from posters and reviewers I trust. I might not even agree with them but I can usually rely on them.

You have to ignore a vast majority of forum users. Such as those guys who will always recommend an ungodly (and costly) combination of unisystem products for any freaking genre, or that guy who has a hard-on on WUSHU.

Have to agree with you that pointing out the flaws in products we like can be very helpful.

[Caesar Slaad]

When posting on another forum about my disappointment with True20, I realized why I was disappointed with it. It was an  'ENWorld Darling' at the time of its release. . . it was the Be All End All of d20; easier to play than D&D, 100% compatible with all d20 products, capable of effortlessly emulating anything you could imagine. And I'll be damned if it was any of these things when I actually bought.

I didn't realize until now that my vast disappointment with the system had more to do with the misrepresentation by its devout fanbase, rather that the system itself. As a generic alternative to D&D, it works okay. It's not really any less complex, though it does open up a number of new avenues in character creation. That's cool. Unfortunately, that's not what I was pitched. I was pitched the d20 equivalent of Hero System, a 'do it all' tool-kit.

What I got was something more like the Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes variant with a crippled M&M power system tacked on to it. A cool idea that I probably would have loved if it had been pitched honestly. As it happens, I was just more focused on not getting the RPG Erector Set that I was promised by the salespeople (i.e. the fans).

Yeah I saw that. And that's almost how I feel.

I mean I got Blue Rose way back when. And I remember thinking "this could be a nifty system if you just stripped away the setting." I even pushed it as a possible take on a "streamlined d20" that some people were looking for.

Then last year, I actually got the True20 hardcover and... was underwhelmed with the results. It chopped away detail where I felt it was needed and added detail where it had the most negative impact.

Last year a friend of mine ran True20 at GenCon with disappointing results. She's sworn off the game and has moved back to d20 modern.

Careful though... I know some fans of True20 who hang there also hang here. Hey, Vig!

[jdrakeh]

Careful though... I know some fans of True20 who hang there also hang here. Hey, Vig!

Fans are fine. I know that not all of them are the walking propoganada machines that Bento or Ghost Face are. Most fans realize that their own likes and dislikes aren't universal laws binding together the phsyical reality that other members of the human race inhabit. Some fans do not, and these are the zeaots who are doing more to hurt their favorite systems then help them.

Fandom is like a public pool -- all it takes is a few people pissing in it to ruin it for everybody else. There are certain public pools that I don't  swim in anymore, because they contain more urine than water. There are certain game systems that I reuse to pick up (or pick up again) because of the rabid apologists who gather under their banners.

Even Pundit seems to understand that personal preferences are personal,  despite his oftentimes heavy-handed promotion of "traditional" games. I don't think I've ever heard him suggest that any one game is vastly superior to all others (I've never even heard hm say this about True20, which I know he loves). Hell, the man even acknowledges the right of people to like 'story games' although he is very firmly on record as saying that he personally dislikes such games, himself.

Arguing merits is one thing, living in some fantasy land where Your Favorite Game is promoted as having fewer flaws than the Hope Diamond and those people who dare say otherwise (true or not) are heretics to be burned is another thing entirely. Those people in the latter group can have their fucking 'flawless' games -- I guarantee that they'll soon run out of people to play them with.

[Zachary The First]

Arguing merits is one thing, living in some fantasy land where Your Favorite Game is promoted as having fewer flaws than the Hope Diamond and those people who dare say otherwise (true or not) are heretics to be burned is another thing entirely. Those people in the latter group can have their fucking 'flawless' games -- I guarantee that they'll soon run out of people to play them with.

Great.  Now would something please inform the fucking Wushu fanboys of this?

[jdrakeh]

Great.  Now would something please inform the fucking Wushu fanboys of this?

I feel your pain. I'm starting to think that C&C and True20 are the Dogs in the Vineyard and Wushu of D&D message boards (i.e., they're the "traditional" equivalent of RPGnet's over-hyped "indie" darlings).

[Jason Coplen]

If he hadn't been, I probably wouldn't be writing this post describing the second most disappointing RPG purchase for me in the last seven years.

Mind if I ask what the first most disappointing was?

[jdrakeh]

Mind if I ask what the first most disappointing was?

I mentioned it recently, actually. Dread: The First Book of Pandemonium, for much the same reasons, actually (I purchased this game based on misleading hype, as well). I think C&C takes third, though it has some close competition from Hero Wars (due to some misleading official marketing).

[Drew]

It's part and parcel of communal thinking. Go to any music forum and you'll find "darlings"-- usually obscure bands whose online significance are more a product of clique-think than talent or creativity.

That said, I personally find True20 to be worthy of much of the praise that's been heaped upon it. It's by no means the soloution to all the perceived problems of d20, but the system's fast, modular and streamlined approach makes it pretty much my first choice for low to mid-powered gaming. I'll be using it for a Wilderness of High Fantasy campaign in the near future, and am also toying with the idea of an Exalted conversion, which looks like it will be far less of a grind than I initially thought.

Yes, evangelism irritates. Misrepresentation of a system is one of my pet peeves, whether it be "Pwned it's broken!" or "Zomg teh roxxors!" Neither offers anything other than conversational white noise when attempting to critically appraise a product's viability. Unfortunately the limitations of text-based communication often results in nuanced appraisals being first against the wall. Even moderate viewpoints can get dragged into the polarising gravity well that the internet seems to engender.

That, and your favourite system is shit.

[Melan]

Drew's got it. Favouritism and group-think is nothing new, and it rears its head everywhere. On this forums, for example, the Rules Cyclopedia is often treated with a bit too much reverence - in my opinion, it is a good, but deeply flawed product. If I followed advice and bought the book on recommendations made here, I would be disappointed too (as I was when I initially bought it... for starters, the art sucks ).

As for irritating evangelism, none of it has been more tired, obnoxious and downright revulsion-inducing than Nightfall's constant Scarred Lands-shilling on ENWorld. That guy has turned me so completely off anything having to do with SL that my perception is probably irreversably tainted by his slobbering all over it.

[Settembrini]

But it appears to me, this is the only community, that reflects upon it´s own biases and darlings (Old School fetishization, RC/BECMI-overpraise, MSPE etc.).

That makes it bearable, I suppose.

[jdrakeh]

But it appears to me, this is the only community, that reflects upon it´s own biases and darlings (Old School fetishization, RC/BECMI-overpraise, MSPE etc.).

I'm not sure if it's the only one, though I agree that even those games held in high esteem by our somewhat prolific board members don't get the diva treatment that they're typically afforded elsewhere. For example. . . True20, The Riddle of Steel, Exalted and C&C are held in extremely high esteem by several board regulars. That doesn't, however, grant them some weirdo immunity from criticism at theRPGsite as it seems to elsewhere.

Criticizing either True20 or C&C at ENWorld, as I've recently discovered, can turn you into a pariah of sorts virtually overnight. As others have discovered, criticizing Exalted or Wushu at RPGNet will do pretty much the same thing. I definitely think that the nature of theRPGsite disperses much of the social stigma associated with criticizing (or in extreme cases, simply not openly worshipping) 'darlings' elsewhere.

I don't know about everybody else, but that certainly makes things more bearable here for me. I like that somebody such as Pundit can get up on the pulpit and preach the Good of True20 and somebody else can say "Cool! Unfortunately, it didn't work for me." and not have to worry about a multi-page fan-led dogpile ensuing. Likewise, the guy preaching the Good doesn't have to worry about a full-on assault of "Your game suXXorz!"

As I mentioned, even Pundit seems not to begrudge the rights of others to like what they like. He might not like "indie" games and, indeed seems to actually hate them, but I don't see him telling people like TonyLB or Andy K that they're not entitled to their personal tastes. At RPGnet and elsewhere, that seems to be a huge defining trend of active 'darling' defense much to my constant annoyance.

[stu2000]

You've got to go offline now and then to de-stress.

There are a lot more sites out there about how loathesome and awful some of my favorite games are--and the business practices of their publishers and the personal hygiene of their authors and on and on--than there are sites offering scenarios or original campaign materials or even NPC write-ups or house rules for those games. I think we know it's easier to piss on something than do do something creative.

I'm going to try to rectify this problem by posting scenarios where Carl Kolchak, Steve Austin, and Evel Knievel team up to fight Sleestaks, Red Lectroids, and the insidious Hanoi Xan--statted up in MSPE.



Dig Settembrini's new Prussian Dalek avatar--jeez, that's awesome.

[Jason Coplen]

I think C&C takes third, though it has some close competition from Hero Wars (due to some misleading official marketing).

I playtested C&C, but I won't GM it anymore (might be cause I have D&D 1E). It just feels like it's missing something, either that or I'd have to use too many houserules for it.

[Mr. Christopher]

Great.  Now would something please inform the fucking Wushu fanboys of this?

Dear gawd, Wushu and its cheerleaders is what finally made me give up on RPGnet.

(as I was when I initially bought it... for starters, the art sucks ).

Well I liked it.