Quote from: Haffrung;523460Professional publishers offer more than just fancy layout and art. A game is a system, like a piece of software. Proper development usually requires some professional expertise in design, architecture, and quality assurance. Not to mention technical writing to put the whole thing on paper.

I agree with this to a point. I'm not sure how to properly articulate the points I don't agree with, so I'll try to take some time and see if I can organize my thoughts and come back to the rest.

QuoteI understand that it hurts people feelings that commercial producers don't cater to their tastes. It's a kind of rejection.

I'm not sure where this comes from. This seems an awful lot like "Well people who don't buy my product just aren't real gamer's" or whatever false dichotomy we'd like to insert here. (The classic False Dilemma-thanks Wikipedia.)

I don't mind that WoTC doesn't make the product I want to play-so I take my free time and money to Shadowrun, and whoever publishes them. (Had to look at the damn book to see it Catalyst. Stuck on FASA that's me!) In the 1980's if you didn't like the options presented by the few companies publishing stuff your alternatives were limited. I have something like 75 different RPG's in PDF on my machine; about ten in print (With all their various supplements) on my shelves. Little of it cost me full list price. (Mostly the PDF"s cost me list price, but since their list price is about half the print price I still feel like I got down.)

The point is I have options.

QuoteHowever, a lot of people these days have let their resentment and alienation of whatever is currently popular in their favourite medium blind them to the merits of professionalism altogether. Just because commercial companies don't produce the kind of content you happen to prefer doesn't mean they lack any merit.

I don't disagree with this completely. Just because I don't play 4e doesn't mean it's not really popular and successful. And really, the more successful a game is the better chance it has at pulling more attention to the hobby and I'm good with that!

Quote from: Haffrung;523263people chatting on the internet =/= hobby

I know a lot of RPG geeks have a visceral hatred of publishers, but it's nothing more than wishful thinking to believe that a decline in commercial publishing does anything but hurt the number of new people entering the hobby and actually playing games. Unless the forum trolls are out there recruiting new gamers and playing at the rate that GURPS, World of Darkness, or D&D generated new gamers in their prime then, yes, the hobby is dying. Without new blood all hobbies die out eventually.

It still remains the case, however, that publishers do NOT create new gamers.  Gamers create new gamers.  I created two last night, ran'em through Saltmarsh, they had a blast.

Your use of "forum trolls" shows your bias, of course.

Quote from: Spinachcat;523299When posters talk about how the hobby is so healthy without the industry, I am pretty sure that they don't actually play RPGs. Just a lot of jibba jabba with blogs, forums and PDFs, but not much dice tossing.

Luckily, you are wrong.  See above.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;523649It still remains the case, however, that publishers do NOT create new gamers.  Gamers create new gamers.  I created two last night, ran'em through Saltmarsh, they had a blast.

You say this but I think you are wrong. A publisher with a good advertising campaign and the ability to put games on a lot of shelves will both attract new players and make it easier for you to persuade people to give it a shot. A big publisher with a large budget can do this in much greater numbers than word of mouth alone. If there's one thing I agree with Pundit on (maybe the only thing), an evergreen, accessible (read: not a friggin text book) product that is ubiquitous would make the hobby much more robust.

Quote from: two_fishes;523650You say this but I think you are wrong. A publisher with a good advertising campaign and the ability to put games on a lot of shelves will both attract new players and make it easier for you to persuade people to give it a shot.

The expectation to have "games on a lot of shelves" exists only in current gamers.  People new to the hobby have no such expectation.

Quote from: Spinachcat;523299When posters talk about how the hobby is so healthy without the industry, I am pretty sure that they don't actually play RPGs. Just a lot of jibba jabba with blogs, forums and PDFs, but not much dice tossing.

I missed this earlier.

I play weekly, so to me this isn't just a discussion on the internet, it's my actual experience. Now I'm willing to admit my experience may not be what everyone else runs into-I get that. But I think this is kind of insulting, and short sighted on your part. Forgive me if that's now how it's intended to be read.

I've played in a regular game for 20 plus years now, and from where I sit the Hobby looks healthy. I know several groups that game in the area, and I see plenty of places advertising games in their area. (Usually Pathfinder, or something popular like that.) The Industry? Couldn't tell you, as I don't generally keep real tabs on it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;523436That is a hobbyist response though. Plenty of people wouldn't touch a hand typed game with a couple of black and white illos in it so they woudl never find out if it was any good.

I have not seen many people buy a RPG off the shelf and learn to play it by themselves since the heyday of D&D in the 1980s. Most people seem to find out about RPGs because someone they know is playing one, invites them, and they find they like it. The new player seldom finds out that the game book is typewritten or published in a beautiful book of art until he is playing.

I've never had any trouble getting players and I usually have far more hand typed pages of rules in use than I do commercially published pages of rules.

Don't get me wrong, the industry can be useful to the hobby. However, it isn't really necessary to the hobby -- and it's success or failure (as measured by profits or sales or the like) is not a good indicator of the health of the hobby. The industry probably can't be healthy if the hobby isn't (as hobbyists are really its only source of sales), but the hobby could be doing fine and the industry dying or dead.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;523591TMNT is how i came to know of them. In my group it was quite a popular game. In fact never played rifts.

You don't know what you're missing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Old One Eye;523231While I have more than enough books and pdfs to last a lifetime of gaming, I find value in browsing around my FLGS or the RPG section of a bookstore.  Every once in a while I get the itch to buy a book, and my favorite method is to browse around the FLGS and pick up whatever catches my fancy.  Be a bit sad if everything goes to electronic shopping.

I'm the exact opposite. I do almost all of my RPG shopping online, as I have made internet friends with some kick-ass, generous, friendly, creative, intelligent people who write and publish some amazing stuff. Folks such as Brett from PIG, Pete from Small Niche Games, Clash from Fling Mice Games, Brendon from Bedrock, Tim from Silverlion Games, Newt from d101, Loz and Pete from Design Mechanism, and many more. These folks with their excellent game books and genuine enthusiasm have restored to me my own sense of wonder and enthusiasm about RPGing. What the internet does for me besides give me access to their great works is the opportunity to talk with them, and even to game with them (thanks Clash and Tim). Sometimes I can even help them by giving my opinion on things they've written, making maps for them, or whatever. In this way I feel more connected to the only part of the "industry" that I care about. As long as these folks keep doing what they are doing my RPGing will be the best it's ever been. As for wotc, I think they will not be truly relevant to the larger hobby until they can get back this level of relations with their fans.

Also, while computer and console games are huge now, I predict a resurgence in popularity of TTRPGs for a few reasons. First is that digital and analog gaming are not mutually exclusive, second is that the small press internet-based companies and OSR are making quality products that are vastly more financially accessible than digital gaming, and the younger folks enjoying hanging with their friends just as much as we did. Just like with us, RPGing gives folks a subculture to belong to.

Call me a dork but I just now stumbled across the kickstart page for Mermaid Adventures and it looks like a cool idea/direction to me (or are there already loads of magic-princess-pony RPGs out there?).
I'll be curious to see how it turns out... and I'll probably get a copy just to check it out.

Quote from: Simlasa;523864Call me a dork but I just now stumbled across the kickstart page for Mermaid Adventures and it looks like a cool idea/direction to me (or are there already loads of magic-princess-pony RPGs out there?).
I'll be curious to see how it turns out... and I'll probably get a copy just to check it out.

As noted on the recent update, the game's author (Eloy Lasanta of Third Eye Games) is actually playtesting it with his kids.

As big a fan of Third Eye Games as I am, I was still skeptical until I took a closer look at the character options and saw the image of the mermaids swimming sailors to shore, away from a burning ship.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;523881As noted on the recent update, the game's author (Eloy Lasanta of Third Eye Games) is actually playtesting it with his kids.

As big a fan of Third Eye Games as I am, I was still skeptical until I took a closer look at the character options and saw the image of the mermaids swimming sailors to shore, away from a burning ship.

I noted in Pundit's thread about what cartoons woudl make good RPG licenses that the target audience for new RPGs needs to switch to kids 5 - 7.
Stuff like a game based around the Rainbow Fairies would have real potential.

I think a shift from techie uber-nerds blowing the crap out of everything to little girls solving issues through teamwork and judicious use of minor magics would be good for the hobby (although my daughter and her mates, aged 7, are the most bloodthirsty bunch you could ever meet).
I would be interested to see fan fic numbers round Harry Potter et al. My guess would be that contributors were 2/3 female to 1/3 male.
Whether or not you could sustain the interest into teen years when you were competing with Justin Bieber, boys and clothes is debateable, but even if the hobby aimed up refocused as an activity for preteen girls it might keep it going. Of course the mix of big fat 40 year old men with beards who live in their parent's basements and pre-teen girls is an uncomfortable on for most parents.

Quote from: jibbajibba;523903I noted in Pundit's thread about what cartoons woudl make good RPG licenses that the target audience for new RPGs needs to switch to kids 5 - 7.
Stuff like a game based around the Rainbow Fairies would have real potential.

:rotfl:

My five- and seven-year-old watch Scooby Doo, Ninjago, Adventure Time, and He-Man and She-Ra reruns, and the only ones I turned them on to was He-Man and She-Ra, after we discovered how much they liked the others.

And yes, my daughter likes the Rainbow Fairies, too.

Kids like action and adventure, and keeping the magic slipper away from Jack Frost's idiot goblins is pretty weak tea compared to dropping ninja moves on snake-men to keep them from getting the fang-blade and taking over the world.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;523933:rotfl:

My five- and seven-year-old watch Scooby Doo, Ninjago, Adventure Time, and He-Man and She-Ra reruns, and the only ones I turned them on to was He-Man and She-Ra, after we discovered how much they liked the others.

And yes, my daughter likes the Rainbow Fairies, too.

Kids like action and adventure, and keeping the magic slipper away from Jack Frost's idiot goblins is pretty weak tea compared to dropping ninja moves on snake-men to keep them from getting the fang-blade and taking over the world.

Depends on the target audience though right. If the game is aimed at 5 year old girls then running away from a bunch of goblins might be fine

Like I said when I play with my daughter she is hugely bloodthirsty to the point where her favourite PC is a digimon style shapeshifter (can change to an animal 3 tiems per day as a special power) who will change into a tiger and eat all the badguys they have mercilessly slain.....

Quote from: Serious Paul;523652I missed this earlier.

I play weekly, so to me this isn't just a discussion on the internet, it's my actual experience. Now I'm willing to admit my experience may not be what everyone else runs into-I get that. But I think this is kind of insulting, and short sighted on your part. Forgive me if that's now how it's intended to be read.

I've played in a regular game for 20 plus years now, and from where I sit the Hobby looks healthy. I know several groups that game in the area, and I see plenty of places advertising games in their area. (Usually Pathfinder, or something popular like that.) The Industry? Couldn't tell you, as I don't generally keep real tabs on it.

Yup, I play every week and have for a long, long time. The hobby is not the industry, and I'm not persuaded the hobby needs the industry. I'm not even necessarily persuaded the industry is a good thing for the hobby, I think it's a mixed blessing with some bits which are very good but others which are detrimental.

Players beget more players. Word-of-mouth is the strongest recruiting tool of our hobby.

That said, if the game is not accessible, investment into the hobby is going to be pretty minimal. If you can't get the rulebook, new players quickly lose interest.

Now, the argument that a strong industry allows access to gamebooks, may not be as true as it was in years past, with a number of slick pdf and websites. The only barrier is having a computer with internet access (and a printer, for those who don't like reading text off a computer), compared to if your book/hobby store carries your favorite game book.