As an official old fart, I remember playing OD&D in 1974, and the original books referred to "Hobbits", which was later changed to "Halflings" due to the Tolkien Estate taking legal action against TSR.
Interestingly enough, a few years back I bought .pdf copies of the OD&D books (sadly, with updated cover art)...along with it, it had a single-volume copy of the 3 LBBs. I didn't bother to read it then, but looking over it now, I see it retained "Hobbits" even though it was edited in 2011:
(http://hobbits.jpg)
Wonder how they got away with that...
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 14, 2022, 12:35:48 PMI bought .pdf copies of the OD&D books (sadly, with updated cover art)...along with it, it had a single-volume copy of the 3 LBBs. I didn't bother to read it then, but looking over it now, I see it retained "Hobbits" even though it was edited in 2011:
Wonder how they got away with that...
Likeliest answer is simply that the Tolkien Estate is no longer paying attention to PDF copies of a 50-year-old gaming product as a significant market-impacting copyright violation.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2022, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 14, 2022, 12:35:48 PMI bought .pdf copies of the OD&D books (sadly, with updated cover art)...along with it, it had a single-volume copy of the 3 LBBs. I didn't bother to read it then, but looking over it now, I see it retained "Hobbits" even though it was edited in 2011:
Wonder how they got away with that...
Likeliest answer is simply that the Tolkien Estate is no longer paying attention to PDF copies of a 50-year-old gaming product as a significant market-impacting copyright violation.
Perhaps, but I can't imagine a company like Hasbro/WOTC signing off on something like that. It's just weird.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 14, 2022, 04:20:55 PMPerhaps, but I can't imagine a company like Hasbro/WOTC signing off on something like that. It's just weird.
Bear in mind that it is entirely likely that the people at Hasbro/WOTC whose job it is to look out for such things as this may well not have been
alive at the time of the original legal action, or realized that there was a difference between the "official" OD&D text files and the scanned copies of the LBBs. Corporate incompetence is often underestimated.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2022, 04:52:07 PM
Bear in mind that it is entirely likely that the people at Hasbro/WOTC whose job it is to look out for such things as this may well not have been alive at the time of the original legal action, or realized that there was a difference between the "official" OD&D text files and the scanned copies of the LBBs. Corporate incompetence is often underestimated.
Another Knights of the Dinner Table/Dragon Archive thing?
Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 05:05:52 PMAnother Knights of the Dinner Table/Dragon Archive thing?
I'm actually not familiar with that incident. What happened with KoDT?
Reminds me of the What's New With Phil and Dixie where the staff at TSR is all saying 'circular metal band' instead of 'ring.'
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2022, 07:01:14 PM
I'm actually not familiar with that incident. What happened with KoDT?
Short history lesson for those who don't know what it is: Dragon Magazine Archive came out like what, 1999, 2000? on disc, it was just PDF scans of all the magazines up to 250 and some crappy search software for a frontend. Anyway, I bought it along with a lot of other people.
So, my understanding is that TSR/WotC did NOT have the rights to distribute KoDT in the electronic format or something like that. Instead of rightfully suing for damages, Kenzer worked out a deal which resulted in the D&D parody known as Hackmaster with zero legal response from TSR/WotC because they pretty much had to agree to allowing it. Hence my comment...just a glaring example of corporate incompetence. Print thousands of CDs with stuff you legally can't distribute because someone dropped the ball procuring the rights.
Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 05:05:52 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2022, 04:52:07 PM
Bear in mind that it is entirely likely that the people at Hasbro/WOTC whose job it is to look out for such things as this may well not have been alive at the time of the original legal action, or realized that there was a difference between the "official" OD&D text files and the scanned copies of the LBBs. Corporate incompetence is often underestimated.
Another Knights of the Dinner Table/Dragon Archive thing?
I originally thought I bought this .pdf from DriveThurRPG in 2019. I got the 3 LBBs, and I thought this single-volume edition came with it, which was edited in 2011.
However, looking at it again, I think it was actually something I downloaded off the internet--no WOTC logos (just the old TSR ones), etc. So "Hobbits" is easily explained that someone got the original LBBs and made their own fan edit.
So no corporate incompetence at play here, just good old fan edits of rules.
Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 08:57:22 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 14, 2022, 07:01:14 PM
I'm actually not familiar with that incident. What happened with KoDT?
Short history lesson for those who don't know what it is: Dragon Magazine Archive came out like what, 1999, 2000? on disc, it was just PDF scans of all the magazines up to 250 and some crappy search software for a frontend. Anyway, I bought it along with a lot of other people.
So, my understanding is that TSR/WotC did NOT have the rights to distribute KoDT in the electronic format or something like that. Instead of rightfully suing for damages, Kenzer worked out a deal which resulted in the D&D parody known as Hackmaster with zero legal response from TSR/WotC because they pretty much had to agree to allowing it. Hence my comment...just a glaring example of corporate incompetence. Print thousands of CDs with stuff you legally can't distribute because someone dropped the ball procuring the rights.
LOL, oh wow. That's situational comedy. I'm kind of glad Kenzer didn't sue though.
Reminds me of when RCA/Universal tried to bully Nintendo over Donkey Kong back in the 80's over the King Kong overlap, only for Nintendo to point out that RCA had argued that King Kong was public domain. Oops.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 14, 2022, 12:35:48 PM
As an official old fart, I remember playing OD&D in 1974, and the original books referred to "Hobbits", which was later changed to "Halflings" due to the Tolkien Estate taking legal action against TSR.
Interestingly enough, a few years back I bought .pdf copies of the OD&D books (sadly, with updated cover art)...along with it, it had a single-volume copy of the 3 LBBs. I didn't bother to read it then, but looking over it now, I see it retained "Hobbits" even though it was edited in 2011:
(http://hobbits.jpg)
Wonder how they got away with that...
You were there when the old school, was just called school.
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 15, 2022, 10:39:42 AMI originally thought I bought this .pdf from DriveThurRPG in 2019. I got the 3 LBBs, and I thought this single-volume edition came with it, which was edited in 2011.
However, looking at it again, I think it was actually something I downloaded off the internet--no WOTC logos (just the old TSR ones), etc. So "Hobbits" is easily explained that someone got the original LBBs and made their own fan edit.
So no corporate incompetence at play here, just good old fan edits of rules.
Probably one of several "one volume" fan edit bootlegs floating about on the intertubes. They probably have a lot to do with the resurgence of popularity of OD&D, as they take the original text and edit it so it makes sense.
Quote from: Vile Traveller on December 15, 2022, 02:16:53 PM
Quote from: Osman Gazi on December 15, 2022, 10:39:42 AMI originally thought I bought this .pdf from DriveThurRPG in 2019. I got the 3 LBBs, and I thought this single-volume edition came with it, which was edited in 2011.
However, looking at it again, I think it was actually something I downloaded off the internet--no WOTC logos (just the old TSR ones), etc. So "Hobbits" is easily explained that someone got the original LBBs and made their own fan edit.
So no corporate incompetence at play here, just good old fan edits of rules.
Probably one of several "one volume" fan edit bootlegs floating about on the intertubes. They probably have a lot to do with the resurgence of popularity of OD&D, as they take the original text and edit it so it makes sense.
Yup. And even though OD&D has a special place in my heart, the rule organization is a complete mess. It's amazing how three little booklets can be so incomprehensible at times.
If people here are referring to the single volume D&D done by Greyharp (basically taking the original three books and editing them down to something more coherent), I would recommend looking at that game. It really exemplifies the immensely powerful scaffolding upon which the entire rpg industry is supported.
Even after Gygax made the edits ( it was Saul Zaentz behind the legal threats, IIRC, the same guy who sued John Fogerty for sounding like John Fogerty) Several references remained in the Holmes basic even in the 2nd edition of it printed in Nov. 1978. Cure Light wounds references hobbits, and hobbits are mentioned a few other places. The Balrog is mentioned in the hold portal spell. No find and replace function back then, eh?
Also no just find. Tolkien lawyers probably looked at the new proofs in the character section, saw "Halflings" and said it was okay.
I'm sure no lawyers were involved.
It's not like TSR was ever sued over Hobbits to start with.
The PDF version I have access to has this blurb, using "halflings", even though "hobbits" is used earlier in the document:
QuoteHalflings: Should any player wish to be one, he will be limited to the Fighting-Men
class as a halfling. Halflings cannot progress beyond the 4th level (Hero), but they will
have magic-resistance equal to dwarves (add four levels for saving throws), and they
will have deadly accuracy with missiles as detailed in CHAINMAIL.
I want to point out; this is by far the shortest racial blurb out of the three, and this is easily the harshest restrictions that any have. The same document allows dwarves to go up to 6th level fighting-man, and has a pile of dwarven racial powers, and spends even more time on elves, who share the same 4th level fighting-man restriction, but can go up to 8th level magic-user (on the same character, the document notes).
Hobbits definitely get the short end of the racial stick! Right below the halfling part is a blurb encouraging play of anything, even a dragon, as long as it starts weak and gets stronger over time.