TheRPGSite

Has anyone picked up the new Hoard of the Dragon Queen module to go with their PHB?  I'd like to hear some thoughts or reviews on it if you have.

I didn't balk at $50 for the Player's Handbook, but $30 for around 90 pages has me more cautious...

About to go pick mine up - wound up putting it on order when I grabbed my PHB last Friday.

I like it.

It is 94 pages. Sturdy paper and not glossy like the PHB.


Spoilers:




One page with new background info, one page of new magic items, and six pages of new monsters and NPCs. Winged kobold (urd) is back! A mix of all edition monsters: half-dragon, drake, and urd.

Eight episodes starting with a village under enemy attack and ending in a cloud giant castle in the sky.

XP is included but can waived and simply level PCs up once for each episode except for one.

Great art, great maps.

The adventure is well written, includes mysteries the PCs must unravel to understand what to do next, has great combats, and really interesting NPCs.

I haven't played it yet. But I could easily see it becoming a classic. It has tightly focused campaign area in which the action takes place. NPCs that be villains or allies. High stakes. Lots of PC choice. And new stuff to use.

Kobold Press is given equal credit with Wizards and even has a page of ads in the back. Mike Mearls gives them kudos in the intro.

Quote from: Kravell;778456One page with new background info, one page of new magic items, and six pages of new monsters and NPCs. Winged kobold (urd) is back! A mix of all edition monsters: half-dragon, drake, and urd. . . Great art, great maps.

All this sounds hopeful, but I've mined out the part I'd like more information on.

Do you think the maps and encounters would be useful outside the module?  For example, is there a tavern map that would be useful as a sort of generic template I could use down the road?

Still flipping through (work day), but I dig the paper stock (of all things). The image of Castle Naerytar is really moody and striking to me (p 43).

There's a few nice, portable locations I think - the ruined Castle Naerytar, along with a roadhouse, a hunting lodge, and a flying castle.

I dig the story.  Cultists stealing treasure to give to a dragon is a classic.  There are some rad locations and a lot of cool monsters.
Nice art.  I dig the backgrounds to personalize it.  I'd recommend it if you are into adventure path type modules.  I'm not totally psyched though.  The maps are hard to read, kinda murky, though they do look really cool.  There are no keys for the numbers on the maps!
Also I think some parts could have been explained and broken down better to be useful at the table.  

SPOILERS



I DMed the opening episode last night.  The opening scene involves a running series of encounters with kobolds and raiders as the heroes try to help townspeople to safety in the keep.  There was a neat idea in there that there will be 3 encounters +1d6 townspeople and +1 encounter of 1d6 kobolds and d4 Cultists for each time they avoid a fight.  Then there is also a short random encounter chart that is not otherwise used on the preceding page.  The chart has various groupings of foes and townspeople. I sort of discovered all this buried in the paragraph as I prepped and ended up just rolling on the encounter table 3 times plus again for the time they avoided a fight.
All in all, it was a bit confusing, seemed like something an editor could have cleaned up.
Then, the Dragon Fight.  Adult Blue Dragon attacking the walls 12d10 breath weapon!  Epic!  The ranger shot it for a lot of damage as he was protected from Fear by a protection from evil spell, aaaaaannnd it was late and I had the dragon turn and breath on the party... sorta had to retcon that TPK.  It didn't feel good, but I sorta made a terrible mistake.  Oh well.  My fault.

Quote from: Durn;778651Then, the Dragon Fight.  Adult Blue Dragon attacking the walls 12d10 breath weapon!  Epic!  The ranger shot it for a lot of damage as he was protected from Fear by a protection from evil spell, aaaaaannnd it was late and I had the dragon turn and breath on the party... sorta had to retcon that TPK.  It didn't feel good, but I sorta made a terrible mistake.  Oh well.  My fault.

Ok, I find that a weird encounter in the first chapter. Even the way the language parses seems odd - essentially, it seems to be don't have the dragon target the PCs with the breath weapon (or they're toast, even on a save).

...sigh...

You didn't make a terrible mistake, the PC's made a terrible mistake thinking they could take on an Adult Dragon without some form of magical protection against it's Breath Weapon.

Yeah death may have introduced a speedbump into the all-important story of the PC's, but that's why god created fast chargen rules, right?  :D

If some or all of the party got wiped, then surely there must be other worthies out there.

All you did was rob the players of their vengeance and let them know they're playing in Video Game Land now.  

We got this! We're PC's! Attack!

ymmv, etc...

Quote from: Durn;778651I dig the story.  Cultists stealing treasure to give to a dragon is a classic.  There are some rad locations and a lot of cool monsters.
Nice art.  I dig the backgrounds to personalize it.  I'd recommend it if you are into adventure path type modules.  I'm not totally psyched though.  The maps are hard to read, kinda murky, though they do look really cool.  There are no keys for the numbers on the maps!
Also I think some parts could have been explained and broken down better to be useful at the table.  

SPOILERS



I DMed the opening episode last night.  The opening scene involves a running series of encounters with kobolds and raiders as the heroes try to help townspeople to safety in the keep.  There was a neat idea in there that there will be 3 encounters +1d6 townspeople and +1 encounter of 1d6 kobolds and d4 Cultists for each time they avoid a fight.  Then there is also a short random encounter chart that is not otherwise used on the preceding page.  The chart has various groupings of foes and townspeople. I sort of discovered all this buried in the paragraph as I prepped and ended up just rolling on the encounter table 3 times plus again for the time they avoided a fight.
All in all, it was a bit confusing, seemed like something an editor could have cleaned up.
Then, the Dragon Fight.  Adult Blue Dragon attacking the walls 12d10 breath weapon!  Epic!  The ranger shot it for a lot of damage as he was protected from Fear by a protection from evil spell, aaaaaannnd it was late and I had the dragon turn and breath on the party... sorta had to retcon that TPK.  It didn't feel good, but I sorta made a terrible mistake.  Oh well.  My fault.

Player stupidity is not your fault... Don't blame yourself for their error in judgment in thinking they could take on an ADULT BLUE DRAGON! It is a Challenge 16 monster with 225 HP, AC 19, and Legendary status... Don't coddle them, let them learn from their mistakes. Hand-holding only makes it worse in the long run...

What level were these brave heroes that called out the Dragon?

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;778749Player stupidity is not your fault... Don't blame yourself for their error in judgment in thinking they could take on an ADULT BLUE DRAGON! It is a Challenge 16 monster with 225 HP, AC 19, and Legendary status... Don't coddle them, let them learn from their mistakes. Hand-holding only makes it worse in the long run...

Yea, ditto, regardless of the strange set-up on the scenario. Having them learn it regardless does sort of set/reset expectations.

I also took a closer look at that encounter, given the designers didn't fall out of a tree.

It's essentially a sort of timed combat / skill encounter. There's no chance of winning it, really, but the goal is to inflict 24 hp or more (or a crit) which will cause it to disengage. In the meantime, it strafes the Keep using its breath weapon to take out maximum number of defenders (not "fight the party").

The dragon in question, Lennithon, is also noted as "Lennithon doesn't consider this to be its fight, and it isn't keen on tangling with adventurers for another's benefit." The dragon's not particularly interested in tangling with adventurers - which, given NPCs don't "Know Level" makes some sort of sense. ("Oh right, there's some unknown adventurer heroes in the Keep and you want me to suss them out. Thanks. Sure, yea, I bet they're not the same guys who took out Blackwyrrm. You see a banner? No. Great. Hail Tiamat ...").

I think it might be useful to running the encounter to project some sort of disdain, arrogance, and intent to the dragon's actions and imagery. And, when it finally turns on them because they take too long, one learns something about poking dragons ... or when they manage to get in the 24, and it leaves, they get to wonder did they really drive off that shark?

I think the encounter, given its lethalness, could have used a bit more meat in describing how to conduct. I don't know it's a major flaw to the adventure.

I also get something of a Dragonlance vibe from it - I know DL isn't particularly well thought of in some circles for a number of reasons ... I just mean the whole Tiamat Rising, Dragons, Half-Dragons, and Draconians (I mean, Dragonborn) gives me nostalgia (I was playing D&D the first time around, you know).

I may just have a few Dragonborn explode or fossilize when they die just to frack with some of my older players.

Quote from: Durn;778651The maps are hard to read, kinda murky, though they do look really cool.  There are no keys for the numbers on the maps!

I found the lack of keys for the maps annoying myself, especially for the less-location based portions (like the 1st chapter) where the number references in the text weren't particularly called out via bold / color / etc.

The scale on the maps is also variable (per map, not within the map) from 1 square being 20 feet (the small castle), 10, or 5 feet (the last seems the most used). Not an issue, but definitely a take note item ... the Castle did seem a little small to me until I saw that scale.

I don't think the maps are muddy in terms of poor reproduction; I think what's going on is that they're subtly (or not) trying to indicate it's not a default battle-map game.

Quote from: Kravell;778456Eight episodes starting with a village under enemy attack and ending in a cloud giant castle in the sky.

XP is included but can waived and simply level PCs up once for each episode except for one.

Great art, great maps.

The adventure is well written, includes mysteries the PCs must unravel to understand what to do next, has great combats, and really interesting NPCs.

I haven't played it yet. But I could easily see it becoming a classic. It has tightly focused campaign area in which the action takes place. NPCs that be villains or allies. High stakes. Lots of PC choice. And new stuff to use.

Kobold Press is given equal credit with Wizards and even has a page of ads in the back. Mike Mearls gives them kudos in the intro.

I highly doubt that any adventure divided into episodes, with a defined ending has any meaningful PC choice included at all.

While I'm all for letting players learn their limitations the hard way, I do have a problem with how this scene was set up. There's a monster you can't possibly beat that is scripted to to kill NPCs and scare the NPCs. Not only is it too much like a cut-scene for my liking, but it has the potential to go all kinds of wrong. It's bad adventure design on a par with villains who are scripted to recover an item and escape with it.

So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

Quote from: Haffrung;778840While I'm all for letting players learn their limitations the hard way, I do have a problem with how this scene was set up. There's a monster you can't possibly beat that is scripted to to kill NPCs and scare the NPCs. Not only is it too much like a cut-scene for my liking, but it has the potential to go all kinds of wrong. It's bad adventure design on a par with villains who are scripted to recover an item and escape with it.

So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

It's kind of like someone heard about old school play sometimes involving monsters that cannot be defeated but (not having any experience with old school play) interpreted that tidbit into the cut scene nightmare we see here.

I bought a copy as part of a pre-order deal through my local game store, so it was like buying it at half price.

Seems like a quality adventure, but...

(1) I'm not a fan of hardback modules. Give me little softcover booklets and fold-out maps and I'm a lot happier. Since there isn't a PDF version, I have no easy way to use the maps in game play.

(2) I'm not used to this style of module, where you follow a pre-determined linear path from A to B. I've played in some like this and clearly they can be fun, but when I DM my campaigns they tend to be a lot more freeform. My favorite modules are the old AD&D monochromes where players get to decide where they go and what they do, rather than having to follow a scripted plot. I'm hoping to give this one a try, but I suspect there will be a learning curve involved for me.

Quote from: Haffrung;778840While I'm all for letting players learn their limitations the hard way, I do have a problem with how this scene was set up. There's a monster you can't possibly beat that is scripted to to kill NPCs and scare the NPCs. Not only is it too much like a cut-scene for my liking, but it has the potential to go all kinds of wrong. It's bad adventure design on a par with villains who are scripted to recover an item and escape with it.

So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

I think it's only a problem if the pc' are forced to fight the dragon.

I intensely dislike adventures that walk the players from scene to scene, triggering plot points when they behave 'correctly'. It just feels like someone took the idea of D&D and turned it completely inside out. I like Mines of Phan. fine; it can be run pretty effectively as a sandbox (especially chapter 3). But the Dragon Queen adventure sounds like it might be pretty crap in this respect. Can anyone who owns it comment on the feasibility of using it with a group that is going to do what they want to do and go where they want to go?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778810I highly doubt that any adventure divided into episodes, with a defined ending has any meaningful PC choice included at all.

Like most of Paizo's adventures the plot thread that connects the encounters are based on the most rational or most obvious choice. If you opt for that choice then the path abort and the campaign will spiral into a different direction.

The individual episode are usually broad enough that there are multiple methods of getting to the ending point.

If done right the path will seem natural as everything follows from the initial commitment. If not done well then it will seem like a railroad as bad as Dragonlance.

These tentpole adventures are meant to provide common experiences for D&D's player base. Like Keep on the Borderlands. But Paizo's adventure paths have fostered the expectation that the shared experiences aren't the adventure setting, but specific scenes, complete with timed attacks and canned NPC dialog. Basically cut-scenes.

It's not even the linearity I dislike so much about APs; a lot of old-school AD&D series like A and U series were pretty much linear. It's the cut-scenes I hate. Scripted climatic or plot-moving scenes that need A, B, and C to occur before they're triggered. What if the party skipped B and killed the wrong guy at step C?

Quote from: Haffrung;778896These tentpole adventures are meant to provide common experiences for D&D's player base. Like Keep on the Borderlands. But Paizo's adventure paths have fostered the expectation that the shared experiences aren't the adventure setting, but specific scenes, complete with timed attacks and canned NPC dialog. Basically cut-scenes.

It's not even the linearity I dislike so much about APs; a lot of old-school AD&D series like A and U series were pretty much linear. It's the cut-scenes I hate. Scripted climatic or plot-moving scenes that need A, B, and C to occur before they're triggered. What if the party skipped B and killed the wrong guy at step C?

I tend to view 'scripted encounters' as optional, or to be adjusted as required.
So they don't bother me. I suppose I don't view modules as a script, but as a general backdrop.

Quote from: Brasidas;778464All this sounds hopeful, but I've mined out the part I'd like more information on.

Do you think the maps and encounters would be useful outside the module?  For example, is there a tavern map that would be useful as a sort of generic template I could use down the road?

There are two village maps, a roadhouse, a two level castle, and a fog giant floating castle that could all be used elsewhere. The dungeon maps are interesting as well.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778810I highly doubt that any adventure divided into episodes, with a defined ending has any meaningful PC choice included at all.

I disagree. Assuming the PCs will go from episode 1 to 8 is likely; just as the PCs going from room 1 to 20 in a dungeon is very likely

Remember Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth? The PCs has to unlock all the doors before getting to the middle and got teleported everywhere along the way. But the adventure assumes they will press on and succeed. This module is the same way.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778846It's kind of like someone heard about old school play sometimes involving monsters that cannot be defeated but (not having any experience with old school play) interpreted that tidbit into the cut scene nightmare we see here.

Steve Winter started at TSR in 1981. Pretty sure he knows old school.

Quote from: Larsdangly;778860I intensely dislike adventures that walk the players from scene to scene, triggering plot points when they behave 'correctly'. It just feels like someone took the idea of D&D and turned it completely inside out. I like Mines of Phan. fine; it can be run pretty effectively as a sandbox (especially chapter 3). But the Dragon Queen adventure sounds like it might be pretty crap in this respect. Can anyone who owns it comment on the feasibility of using it with a group that is going to do what they want to do and go where they want to go?

This adventure is not a dungeon crawl. This adventure is not a hex crawl.

This adventure is an event (a village expected to be a haven found under attack) that offers clues and rewards for following up on what happens. The PCs choose to get involved or not in each case. If they prefer to just wander off randomly, ignoring any backstories that tie them to the adventure then the DM will have to wing it and just use the campaign map to make up random stuff. Various dungeons in the module could be tossed out for exploration.

I would suggest asking the players if they want to slowly unravel a dangerous cult's plans and pursue them. If yes, make backstories that match per the adventure and go. If no, convert a 1E module or an Expert hexcrawl and do that instead for a  5E campaign.

Episode 1: you arrive at a village and find instead of a haven that is it under attack. What do you do? Info is given on the results of a variety of responses including doing nothing.

Episode 2: If the PCs stuck around, the PCs are offered gold to go after the raiders and gather info. If the PCs left the village this doesn't happen. Get out a dungeon.

Episode 3: Offered a reward to go back to the raider's camp and see if they are planning another raid.

Basically, this adventure doesn't work if the PCs don't want to oppose a dangerous cult. I'd ask them first if that type of campaign appeals.

Quote from: Haffrung;778840So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

Maybe not 12 HD, but the most famous module of all time, B2, was sort of like that.  Walk into the wrong cave as brand new level 1 PCs and get eaten by an owlbear.  Or skewered by a minotaur.


Also, and this isn't directed at you personally, let's not forget plenty of old school popular AD&D modules were just as scripted as much as this one is.  The Slavers series comes to mind.  As does the GDQ series.  By the very nature of an adventure module's limitations (page count), they are going to be scripted to some point with key plot points covered.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778957Maybe not 12 HD, but the most famous module of all time, B2, was sort of like that.  Walk into the wrong cave as brand new level 1 PCs and get eaten by an owlbear.  Or skewered by a minotaur.

Big difference between exploring and discovering something that's out of your league (and that you can presumably avoid or flee from), and taking part in a mandatory and scripted scene where you're attacked by a monster that it's impossible for you to defeat.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778957Also, and this isn't directed at you personally, let's not forget plenty of old school popular AD&D modules were just as scripted as much as this one is.  The Slavers series comes to mind.  As does the GDQ series.  By the very nature of an adventure module's limitations (page count), they are going to be scripted to some point with key plot points covered.

I pointed that out myself upthread. As I said, the thing I dislike is scripted scenes and encounters. Give me a setting, some adversaries, some hooks, and some goals. I'm good. I can even tolerate it if those goals are linear in nature (though I prefer if they aren't). But don't describe a particular scene because I can do that myself, and it will be a scene generated by the particulars of my playgroup and their actions (along with my imagination), not storyboarded as an action scene by an author.

The 'scripting' that occurs in 1E and BD&D modules is not very obnoxious because it is very mechanical. You may need to do certain things in a certain order because the places or things are connected like a big trap. Or, one module leads to another in a series (A, G, D), just as one room leads to another in a dungeon crawl or you get to one hex by going through another in a hex crawl. In general these don't mold and manipulate player behavior.

Quote from: Kravell;778946Steve Winter started at TSR in 1981. Pretty sure he knows old school.

That was just a theory. Another theory is that adventures that lead players by the nose have been selling well and this is about making money after all.

I forgot not to attribute something to ignorance that could be better explained by greed.

Quote from: Kravell;778940There are two village maps, a roadhouse, a two level castle, and a fog giant floating castle that could all be used elsewhere. The dungeon maps are interesting as well.

The others bring up some good points too.  I guess I'll have to sit down in the store for a few minutes and give it a good perusal before I decide to buy or not.

Quote from: Kravell;778948Episode 1: you arrive at a village and find instead of a haven that is it under attack. What do you do? Info is given on the results of a variety of responses including doing nothing.

Episode 2: If the PCs stuck around, the PCs are offered gold to go after the raiders and gather info. If the PCs left the village this doesn't happen. Get out a dungeon.

Episode 3: Offered a reward to go back to the raider's camp and see if they are planning another raid.

Basically, this adventure doesn't work if the PCs don't want to oppose a dangerous cult. I'd ask them first if that type of campaign appeals.

Adventure buy in is a different kettle of fish than a scripted plot progression.

You forgot to mention the cake topper for episode 1:

A raid boss challenges the "greatest warrior" in the keep to single combat. He has hostages that compel someone to answer the call. If no PC steps up to volunteer for a first class asswhipping then some poor schmuck guard gets trotted out there to die while the PCs look on in shame.

If they ARE stupid enough to send a champion (a first level character) then he/she has the fun of getting mudstomped by a CL 4 half dragon with 57 hitpoints, including a parting shot ensuring at least one death check.

IF the champion wins the impossible fight then kobolds swarm all over and spirit their master away making sure he survives for a later episode.

Yes folks this is the new Fewmaster Toade.

Setup for dismal failure- CHECK
Making sure an NPC survives so that the PCs REALLY hate him- CHECK

Fuck that shit. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779336You forgot to mention the cake topper for episode 1:

A raid boss challenges the "greatest warrior" in the keep to single combat. He has hostages that compel someone to answer the call. If no PC steps up to volunteer for a first class asswhipping then some poor schmuck guard gets trotted out there to die while the PCs look on in shame.

If they ARE stupid enough to send a champion (a first level character) then he/she has the fun of getting mudstomped by a CL 4 half dragon with 57 hitpoints, including a parting shot ensuring at least one death check.

IF the champion wins the impossible fight then kobolds swarm all over and spirit their master away making sure he survives for a later episode.

Yes folks this is the new Fewmaster Toade.

Setup for dismal failure- CHECK
Making sure an NPC survives so that the PCs REALLY hate him- CHECK

Fuck that shit. :rolleyes:

Hmmm ... what if we had the same encounter set-up, except Cyanwrath calls the defenders out to fight their champion, or an unblooded Dragonwing (maybe a Dragonborn one)? Perhaps a favored of of Cyanwrath, or a test to advance someone or whatnot. Something a little closer to a tough fight (and not an impossible one) for the PCs. Then just run it straight-up and let the chips fall where they will.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779336Adventure buy in is a different kettle of fish than a scripted plot progression.

This never seems to sink in. What the PCs want and how they do it are entirely different things. The notion that sandbox play means wandering around doing random shit is the strawman that won't die.

Scripted Adventure

1. Party ambushed by cultists regardless of how careful they are.
2. Party defeats cultists and reach inn, where they meet Mayor and tell him what happened to them.
3. Scripted encounter where priest of Mitra asks party to help track down lair of cultists.
4. Party goes to lair and witnesses evil rites. Cultists attack PCs and leader  flees.
5. Party discovers letter at cultist lair pointing to mayor as ally.
6. Party returns to town to confront mayor. In scripted scene, mayor flings priest of Mitra off cliff into sea to present dilemma to PCs.
7. Priest of Mitra is saved by PCs, and rewards PCs with magic artifact that allows them to track leader of cult to ancient summoning circle.
8. In climactic showdown, Cult Leader unleashes a summoned fiend while striving to complete ritual that will open portal to the Abyss.


Non-Scripted Adventure

• Party hears of cult that they have reason to seek out for any number of reasons: revenge for friend enslaved by cult, desire for an arcane tome rumoured to be in their possession, quest to eradicate worshippers of the demon, etc.


• Ambush described in adventure, but can be tackled or circumvented depending on the actions of PCs.


• Inn and occupants described, but no assumption made that PCs explain what happened, or disclose anything to mayor.


• Variety of ways to find out more about cult presented. Working with Priest of Mitra is an option, but it's not strictly necessary.


• Lair of cultists is written up with several suggestions for how they react to intruders. Leader will try to flee under certain conditions. If leader is killed it's not a show-stopper.


• Mayor written up as a dynamic character who can take over cult if cult leader is killed. If the party retrieves tome of demon summoning from leader in lair, mayor will try to buy or steal it from them.


• The summoning of the demon can be carried out by  the cult leader, the mayor, or may not happen at all. Contingencies presented for mayor claiming it's the PCs who are cultists, and the Priest of Mitra allying with Mayor to capture PCs.

Both formats have motivation and a premise. Both have compelling characters and situations. Both will generate a story in play. But the one will generate the story the author wrote, and the other will generate a story that arises organically at the table.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779336You forgot to mention the cake topper for episode 1:

A raid boss challenges the "greatest warrior" in the keep to single combat. He has hostages that compel someone to answer the call. If no PC steps up to volunteer for a first class asswhipping then some poor schmuck guard gets trotted out there to die while the PCs look on in shame.

If they ARE stupid enough to send a champion (a first level character) then he/she has the fun of getting mudstomped by a CL 4 half dragon with 57 hitpoints, including a parting shot ensuring at least one death check.

IF the champion wins the impossible fight then kobolds swarm all over and spirit their master away making sure he survives for a later episode.

Yes folks this is the new Fewmaster Toade.

Setup for dismal failure- CHECK
Making sure an NPC survives so that the PCs REALLY hate him- CHECK

Fuck that shit. :rolleyes:

That sounds awful. But WotC did demonstrate in the 4E era that they know how to write sandboxy adventures (Thunderspire Labyrinth, Madness at Gardmore Abbey), so there may be hope yet. And 5E will work fine with my homebrew dungeon campaign.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779336Adventure buy in is a different kettle of fish than a scripted plot progression.

You forgot to mention the cake topper for episode 1:

A raid boss challenges the "greatest warrior" in the keep to single combat. He has hostages that compel someone to answer the call. If no PC steps up to volunteer for a first class asswhipping then some poor schmuck guard gets trotted out there to die while the PCs look on in shame.

If they ARE stupid enough to send a champion (a first level character) then he/she has the fun of getting mudstomped by a CL 4 half dragon with 57 hitpoints, including a parting shot ensuring at least one death check.

IF the champion wins the impossible fight then kobolds swarm all over and spirit their master away making sure he survives for a later episode.

Yes folks this is the new Fewmaster Toade.

Setup for dismal failure- CHECK
Making sure an NPC survives so that the PCs REALLY hate him- CHECK

Fuck that shit. :rolleyes:

And don't forget, if rest of party attacks the Half-Dragon, they will also have to contend with 16 Kobolds as well...

Did I forget to mention said Half-Dragon also has a Lightning Breath (recharges on 5-6) for 4d10 with a Dex save DC 13 for half? He also has Action Surge, and a Multi-attack for two attacks with a Greatsword for 2d6+4 and Improved Critical 19-20.

Quote from: Kravell;778948Basically, this adventure doesn't work if the PCs don't want to oppose a dangerous cult. I'd ask them first if that type of campaign appeals.

Careful, you and the entire Milky Way Galaxy might fall into that excluded middle between a "track down the cult" adventure and a set of scripted scenes on rails that not only set the scene in a certain way but are guaranteed to end in a certain way as well.

In my experience, its pretty easy to interest characters to track down a cult.

You don't need to railroad.

Just have the cult do what the cult does.

Characters will presumably either oppose the cults activities, ignore it until it impacts them more directly, join the cult, steal from the cult, replace the cult, etc...

My philosophy is to not force them to fight the cult.

Quote from: CRKrueger;778736...sigh...

You didn't make a terrible mistake, the PC's made a terrible mistake thinking they could take on an Adult Dragon without some form of magical protection against it's Breath Weapon.

Yeah death may have introduced a speedbump into the all-important story of the PC's, but that's why god created fast chargen rules, right?  :D

If some or all of the party got wiped, then surely there must be other worthies out there.

All you did was rob the players of their vengeance and let them know they're playing in Video Game Land now.  

We got this! We're PC's! Attack!

ymmv, etc...

Yeah, they're dead. Let them stay dead. "Roll another character."

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;779388And don't forget, if rest of party attacks the Half-Dragon, they will also have to contend with 16 Kobolds as well...

Did I forget to mention said Half-Dragon also has a Lightning Breath (recharges on 5-6) for 4d10 with a Dex save DC 13 for half? He also has Action Surge, and a Multi-attack for two attacks with a Greatsword for 2d6+4 and Improved Critical 19-20.

I assume the PC's don't know any of this until the ass kicking commences. Sounds like you can call the incident "scouting the opposition using one's face.":-)

So, I've read the first episode of HotDQ. Attacking the dragon is actually unavoidable. The Players are supposed to attack it, hell they are penalized if they don't. They way it is written, the only way for the dragon to leave is to cause 24 points of damage or one critical.

The dragon is strafing the keep, every pass it kills 1d4 guards and injures 1d6 others. Once the players enter the keep the counting of kills begins. Normally the players will earn 50XP each for scaring away the dragon. If 10 Guards are killed, this total drops to 25XP. The players only have a few passes in order to scare it away for full XP. Of course they don't know that. There is nothing about what happens if the party doesn't attack the dragon. Does it just continue killing guards? Does it just get bored and leave? When the Party reaches the keep, it comes under siege from the Cultists. Why doesn't the Dragon just attack the keep walls creating a breach? It's an Adult Blue Dragon (Challenge 16), it could stomp this keep flat without batting an eye... And yet it is scared off by 24 points of damage? WTF... Once the players "scare" away the dragon, it doesn't even appear later in the module...

It is an absolutely pointless addition to the module...


As I said, I've only read the first episode in any detail so far. I cant say if the rest of it is as stupid...

Quote from: cranebump;779515I assume the PC's don't know any of this until the ass kicking commences. Sounds like you can call the incident "scouting the opposition using one's face.":-)

Yup, pretty much...

I think one thing to keep in mind that is very relevant is that this adventure is designed for the Adventurer's League, so there has to be a lot more strict "railroading" than you might find in an adventure desigend for home play.  Since the AL is designed to have players all follow the relative same progression, treasure, and XP paths, as well as completing roughly the same amount of plot progression per session, the adventure has to be fairly linear.  Just like the Slavers series back in the day that were designed for tourney play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779537I think one thing to keep in mind that is very relevant is that this adventure is designed for the Adventurer's League, so there has to be a lot more strict "railroading" than you might find in an adventure desigend for home play.  Since the AL is designed to have players all follow the relative same progression, treasure, and XP paths, as well as completing roughly the same amount of plot progression per session, the adventure has to be fairly linear.  Just like the Slavers series back in the day that were designed for tourney play.

If League play means that my participation doesn't matter and the same shit is going to happen no matter what the group does why are we playing again?

Of the things mentioned, that Half-Dragon duel sounds the worst. If I run this, that will definitely be changed.

Quote from: Saplatt;779552Of the things mentioned, that Half-Dragon duel sounds the worst. If I run this, that will definitely be changed.

But...but.... the main appeal of these farces is the shared experiences. Players in your group will never get to hang out with the cool kids and talk about how their fighter got beat like a redheaded stepchild.:rolleyes:

Neither situation is one a little DIY can't fix. Or you can spend all your time grog-raging to the internet about how they did it wrong. There's a meaningful choice for you; one involves playing the game, and the other does not.

Quote from: Raven;779561Neither situation is one a little DIY can't fix. Or you can spend all your time grog-raging to the internet about how they did it wrong. There's a meaningful choice for you; one involves playing the game, and the other does not.

One can hope that a terrible adventure is not representative of the game as a whole. I still intend to take 5E for a spin when the schedule permits, it just won't be with this turkey.

One of the reasons I was excited about 5E is I would be able to play a game with a system I like that was also supported by adventure content. Maybe WotC will offer some more sandboxy adventure settings going forward. But I had hoped to kick off 5E with the HotDQ , so yeah, it's disappointing that it's a Paizo-style railroad. So now I have to go with plan B.

The great irony is that I'll probably end up converting a 4E adventure like Madness at Gardmore Abbey to 5E rather than use 5E's flagship launch adventure. It seems WotC launched 5E with an adventure better suited to 4E, just as it launched 4E with an adventure better suited to 3E  (or 5E).

This is disappointing.

At this point, I'm leaning more towards using the Phandelver adventure as the kickoff point, then winging it until I see if Part II of ToD gets any better.

If not, I have entire shelves of older resources I can convert.

Both Frog God and Goodman are going to support 5E with adventure material so there is still hope for good stuff.

My take on the Dragon encounter is that it is supposed to show of the bounded accuracy of 5e, then pummels its own intentions about the head by abstracting the process and not explaining.

After all, there's a bunch of guards in that fortress. Are they supposed to just stand there letting themself roasted? I don't have the adventure, but my guess is that they are shooting arrows at the thing.

So, to avoid having the DM roll attacks for all guards the PC's damage becomes representative of the damage the entire keep deals to the dragon. When the PC's deal 25 damage, that means the rest of the keep has propably dealt a multitude of that and the dragon thinks: "Yeah, I'm not getting hurt or even killed about this shitty little keep."

So the encounter is propably build as a showcase that in 5e a single high level charakter can't be assumed to take down a keep full of low level guys without so much as a scratch. But then doesn't use the actual mechanic in the game for that effect.

So, yes, it's still bad design, but I can see where they are coming from.

I'd fix this by having the Dragon take average damage for the guards each round and placing some balistas on the keep as a way to deal serious damage and keep the dragon from taking an interest in the PCs. If it takes a fourth-third of its hp in damage, it buggers of.


Now that duel? That's just crappy.



One question, out of interest. Is the cloud castle part any good?

Sky dwelling giants are kinda big in my setting (pun not intended, but welcome). So, if that is usable, I might pick up the adventure sometime later, just for that.

Quote from: Gold Roger;779595Now that duel? That's just crappy.



.

It is.  I'm wondering if it's a forced way to get players familar with how the death saves work.


Either way, I just looked over my Adventurer's League guidelines again and I think it helps put HotDQ into proper context.

That is, they even call these sessions "storyline sessions".  So you're very much playing a storyline.  As EW points out, why would anyone do this?

The answer is because AL uses factions that PCs belong to, and therefore it's important that all PCs who go through the same adventure have the same (or as close as you can get) experience as a PC in another gaming group.  This is important because players can mix match groups later on.  I.e., if you're playing episode 5 with players from three different groups, they all will have had the same storyline progression in order to play the episode.  If one fo those PCs were in a group where they joined the cultists and burned down the town (possible in a true sandbox game), how could they then join another group in a later episode?

Also, as PCs go through adventures, they get reknown and can rise in the ranks of their particular faction (all the other players in the network).  So adhering to a linear storyline is pretty much the nature of the beast.

That all being said, I can totally get people who don't like that style of play.  It certainly gives me pause to play in these events.  But the good news is that we shouldn't expect other adventures to be just like HotDQ since it's specifically designed for this style.

I actually find that a bit upsetting.

The adventure path shouldn't be specifically designed for organized play. It should be specifically designed for unexperienced groups that get their first experience with 5th edition or even Roleplaying from it.

I'd imagine that with an unexperienced DM the dragon and duel encounters will make for a very bad and possibly disencouraging experience.


Maybe wotc imagines that new players will mostly come in through organized play, where their experience will be guided by seasoned DMs.


But,is there even organized play everywhere? Never heard of it happening here in germany and we are one of the bigger non american markets for RPGs.

From what I know (admittedly based on insuficient data) new groups often spring up pretty isolated. Having such groups presented with a organized play adventure as a logical choice for their first campaign feels misguided to me.


Of course, that doesn't hurt me. But wotc presenting only adventures that aren't designed for the hometable leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In my opinion, comercial adventures and organized play adventures, that are a form of marketing, should be devloped independently.

My two biggest concerns about 5E support are how much it will be influenced by organized play, and how intrusive the presumed Forgotten Realms setting will be. Because those priorities run contrary to what I'm interested in.

Quote from: Haffrung;779647My two biggest concerns about 5E support are how much it will be influenced by organized play, and how intrusive the presumed Forgotten Realms setting will be. Because those priorities run contrary to what I'm interested in.

Personally I don't think either are big concerns.  for the first, we already know 3rd party support is going to be pretty strong for non-organized play.  HotDQ is just there to kick off their Adventurer's League.  For the second, the PHB includes pantheons for all the major settings, which tells me they are supporting everything and not just FR.

Coordinating an ongoing transmedia event through organized gameplay (both main storyline and "side events"), novels, mmo expansions, boardgames, cardgames, and miniature games is a daunting task.

Why would WotC even bother with non-event adventures?  If "The D&D Brand" is the interconnected web of products, then any non-event content is useless to "The D&D Brand".

That's what the 3pp are for I guess, writing modules for the non-transmedia market.

Quote from: Haffrung;779647My two biggest concerns about 5E support are how much it will be influenced by organized play, and how intrusive the presumed Forgotten Realms setting will be. Because those priorities run contrary to what I'm interested in.

Intrusive. FR or any other setting published will be very intrusive because I really doubt they're gonna drop the "Everything is Core" bullshit.  Thus, you're going to have to basically houserule the system as if it were a toolkit like GURPS to have anything approaching a sane setting.  Of course, you've been doing that since WotC took over anyway. ;)

The design team responsible for the core rules of 5E really have done an exceptional job, and the MoP adventure that comes with the basic set is quite good. But the whole concept of story sessions and adventure leagues and so forth sounds like one of the worst directions you could possible go with table top roleplaying. It sounds like an intentional railroad mind fuck; like railroading as a way of life. Who thought this was a good idea?

Quote from: Larsdangly;779662The design team responsible for the core rules of 5E really have done an exceptional job, and the MoP adventure that comes with the basic set is quite good. But the whole concept of story sessions and adventure leagues and so forth sounds like one of the worst directions you could possible go with table top roleplaying. It sounds like an intentional railroad mind fuck; like railroading as a way of life. Who thought this was a good idea?

Probably just trying to get back to D&D's roots.  Most of the modules that came out in the late 70s early 80s were tourney modules and exactly the same sort of "railroad" adventures that is being discussed here.

Quote from: CRKrueger;779658Intrusive. FR or any other setting published will be very intrusive because I really doubt they're gonna drop the "Everything is Core" bullshit.  Thus, you're going to have to basically houserule the system as if it were a toolkit like GURPS to have anything approaching a sane setting.  Of course, you've been doing that since WotC took over anyway. ;)

If an adventure has cool locations, NPCs, and other tidbits I don't mind picking out the implied setting stuff to use in my own game. A series of scripted scenes complete with endings isn't worth picking through regardless of setting.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779663Probably just trying to get back to D&D's roots.  Most of the modules that came out in the late 70s early 80s were tourney modules and exactly the same sort of "railroad" adventures that is being discussed here.

I disagree that this is the same strategy. The tournament modules were self contained and 'dungeon-y', and therefore pretty linear. But they generally did not force certain behaviors or proscribe the ways in which scenes or interactions would play out, and with rare exceptions (perhaps only the end of A3) did not dictate outcomes of scenes. The broad intent of adventure league modules may be similar, but the reality sounds quite different.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779663Probably just trying to get back to D&D's roots.  Most of the modules that came out in the late 70s early 80s were tourney modules and exactly the same sort of "railroad" adventures that is being discussed here.

Are you really going to compare this dictated string of scenes to something like Ghost Tower of Inverness which does feature a railroaded setup-the PC's being in trouble and kind of forced to undertake the adventure?

Not   Even  Close.  

In Ghost Tower, once the NPC mouthpiece finishes giving each PC a tongue lashing, and provides funds to equip themselves, they begin at the keep ruins and proceed from there as they see fit.

Even in the infamous slavelords series the only adventure with a real railroad is the end of A3 leading to the beginning of A4. It IS a pretty bad one but the modules don't micromanage PC activities in each module.

Quote from: Larsdangly;779662Who thought this was a good idea?

It seems to me it is being sold as somewhat as a transition product. Its starts of linear and becomes more and more open, until part two (The Rise of Tiamat) becomes pretty much a sandbox.

Now weather or not they have pulled that off remains to be seen, but I can see why they would want to start with the 'Adventure Path' format, because they seem to be really popular right now.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779668Are you really going to compare this dictated string of scenes to something like Ghost Tower of Inverness which does feature a railroaded setup-the PC's being in trouble and kind of forced to undertake the adventure?

Not   Even  Close.  

.

Yep, and I just did.  I think you're letting your TSR colored glasses bias you a bit here.  That, or you haven't actually read HotDQ.  For one, I don't think HotDQ is as scripted as you think it is.  They flat out tell you that you can do any of the first episode's task in any order you want.  They also tell you you how to handle various options the PCs may take in episode 2, etc.

Each episode is no different than any of those modules, just perhaps on a smaller scale.  I.e., you couldn't have the players sit down to play A1 and they all decided to go right to A4.  They had to follow the chain of scripts...er...log books in a linear fashion.  Same with G1-G3, and numerous others.

Now, for most of us who played those modules at home, we adapted them and made them more sandboxy than how they would be played in a tournament.  But you can do the same thing with HotDQ.  Just skip the duel if you want.  But there is really little difference in how HotDC and A1-A4 were designed: to be played in an organized play with a specific style of play encouraged that was not sandbox.  In A1-A4's case, you didn't get points by going off the script for example.

Quote from: CRKrueger;779658Intrusive. FR or any other setting published will be very intrusive because I really doubt they're gonna drop the "Everything is Core" bullshit.  Thus, you're going to have to basically houserule the system as if it were a toolkit like GURPS to have anything approaching a sane setting.  Of course, you've been doing that since WotC took over anyway. ;)

4E actually set most of its published adventures in the Nentir Vale, a generic small-scale locale that anyone could pop into their own campaign. No book or CRPG tie-ins whatsoever. I was hoping they might do the same with 5E, but I'm losing confidence.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779663Probably just trying to get back to D&D's roots.  Most of the modules that came out in the late 70s early 80s were tourney modules and exactly the same sort of "railroad" adventures that is being discussed here.

Simply not true. The most railroady of TSR era tournament modules, the A series - would be considered a sandbox by modern standards. Besides the forced capture in A3, there are no other scripted scenes or encounters.

I get the impression HotDQ is something of an homage to B10 Night's Dark Terror. But that mega-adventure isn't nearly as scripted. Yes, there's an attack on a fort at the beginning of the adventure. But there isn't any scripted outcome to the battle, or any other scripted scenes.

Quote from: jadrax;779670Now weather or not they have pulled that off remains to be seen, but I can see why they would want to start with the 'Adventure Path' format, because they seem to be really popular right now.

Absolutely. I won't fault them with mimicking the most successful adventure model of recent years. I just hoped they might take a different tack and provide an alternative to Paizo-style adventure paths.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779675Now, for most of us who played those modules at home, we adapted them and made them more sandboxy than how they would be played in a tournament.  But you can do the same thing with HotDQ.  Just skip the duel if you want.  But there is really little difference in how HotDC and A1-A4 were designed: to be played in an organized play with a specific style of play encouraged that was not sandbox.  In A1-A4's case, you didn't get points by going off the script for example.

There was extra content in the commercial release versions. There were whole parts labeled [ Not for Tournament Use] meaning you could play with just the original tournament content if you wanted.

Can someone tell me what the extra Background in this is - that is if there is one?

For all my bitching, I just picked it up at the store anyway. It is a nice looking book that contains ~10-12 solid nights of gaming. I'm sure I'll run it in a way that doesn't look very much like a story path or whatever it is I'm supposed to call a railroad that I bought into. My natural laziness and general tendency to fail to read all the background text will be my best helpmeets.

Quote from: CRKrueger;778736...sigh...

You didn't make a terrible mistake, the PC's made a terrible mistake thinking they could take on an Adult Dragon without some form of magical protection against it's Breath Weapon.

Yeah death may have introduced a speedbump into the all-important story of the PC's, but that's why god created fast chargen rules, right?  :D

If some or all of the party got wiped, then surely there must be other worthies out there.

All you did was rob the players of their vengeance and let them know they're playing in Video Game Land now.  

We got this! We're PC's! Attack!

ymmv, etc...

That alone sold me on the book.

After futzing around with mock fights online I finally talked my main offline group to try 5E.

They are walking into Tyranny of Dragons cold.

What's fun is the group.

Human Necromancer (combat caster)

Human Assassin (grapler)

Human War Cleric (Polearm Master)

Tiefling Wild Blood Sorcerer

Ya...gonna be one of those parties.

Any advice for the early part of the adventure?

May the gods help the peasants and innocent bystanders.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;780374That alone sold me on the book.

After futzing around with mock fights online I finally talked my main offline group to try 5E.

They are walking into Tyranny of Dragons cold.

What's fun is the group.

Human Necromancer (combat caster)

Human Assassin (grapler)

Human War Cleric (Polearm Master)

Tiefling Wild Blood Sorcerer

Ya...gonna be one of those parties.

Any advice for the early part of the adventure?

Get some throat lozenges, you're gonna be talking a lot while the players watch. :p

Quote from: Exploderwizard;779546If League play means that my participation doesn't matter and the same shit is going to happen no matter what the group does why are we playing again?

Have to agree there. League/RPGA play should not = railroad or overscripting.

But seems the rails are less blatant or few after that first one?

Quote from: Omega;780424Have to agree there. League/RPGA play should not = railroad or overscripting.

But seems the rails are less blatant or few after that first one?

The problem is the way the league is set up, every player has to have the same outcome (relatively) for major plot points as every other group.  Not only story-wise, but XP and treasure wise as well.  That's because PCs need to be interchangeable at tables.  If one group managed to kill the half dragon in the beginning somehow, then joined a different group later on where you encounter him again, you've got a big continuity problem.

That said, I totally understand how that style of play is unappealing to many.  It sure causes me great pause.  I may give it a shot, but I doubt I'll want to keep DMing in the league.  But if other people like it?  More power to them.

When you look at the major questions of a happening: Who, What, Where, When, How, and Why - having a shared experience means some of those things must be the same.

In the original modules, or even tournament adventures, the shared experience was Where, When and for tournaments sometimes Who.  You may have set pre-gens to run or you could use your own characters, but the setup was the same.  You got placed In Media Res in a location or situation and went forward from there.  The What, How and most of the time the Why was up to the players.

This League play has as shared experience Where, When and What.  The initial situation is the same and the main outcome is the same as well.  You use your own characters, so the Who and to some degree Why is up to you.  Any uniqueness comes from the Who and How.

Conversations about the older module would focus on whether you won in the first place, and then how you did it.

Conversations about the newer modules will be focused on the How, we all know we all survived and won, the question is How.

Different conversation, different shared experience, but...with less choice, the experience becomes more socially binding for those that choose to participate...at least in theory.  

It's interactive metaplot on a transmedia scale.  If they can ensure an outcome through League play, this outcome can interact directly with the MMO and novels and so players can engage via wallet into other areas of the metaplot already having participated in one end and everyone who experienced part of it, whether novels, comics, MMO, League, Facebook game, whatever, can be a part of "Tyranny of Dragons" in different ways.

Once ToD is over, then move on to next year's Transmedia Event, etc...

Quote from: CRKrueger;780507It's interactive metaplot on a transmedia scale.  If they can ensure an outcome through League play, this outcome can interact directly with the MMO and novels and so players can engage via wallet into other areas of the metaplot already having participated in one end and everyone who experienced part of it, whether novels, comics, MMO, League, Facebook game, whatever, can be a part of "Tyranny of Dragons" in different ways.

Once ToD is over, then move on to next year's Transmedia Event, etc...

Yeah the feeling is very much one of a world event in WOW. All the players get to participate but the outcome will be predetermined regardless.

Doesn't hold my interest in an MMO and certainly not in tabletop. It is literally taking the game out of gaming. No thanks.

I haven't read enough of the book to know whether I'm having my brain sucked out by a transmedia rail road. But leafing through the thing, it seems like it must be possible to run it in a more conventional way. Like, I looked at the duel people mentioned, and I think it is likely that guy is going to get his ass handed to him by the character my brother is playing right now, so we're going to be off in some alternate reality outside the transmedia railroad, where that half dragon dickhead is dead and there is some other reason why the PC's learn about the various other parts of the setting and adventure. Does anyone know the book well enough yet to tell me why this thing can't be run in re-shaped pieces like that, rather than in the linear scripted way its intended?

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;780374That alone sold me on the book.

After futzing around with mock fights online I finally talked my main offline group to try 5E.

They are walking into Tyranny of Dragons cold.

What's fun is the group.

Human Necromancer (combat caster)

Human Assassin (grapler)

Human War Cleric (Polearm Master)

Tiefling Wild Blood Sorcerer

Ya...gonna be one of those parties.

Any advice for the early part of the adventure?

I could see the necromancer considering having Bond 9. Maybe he was studying dracoliches.

The human assassin might consider being a cult of the dragon infiltrator.

Maybe the sorcerer has bond 3 and is haunted by these dreams. If the player likes this bond and runs with it, maybe each wild surge gives a clearer glimpse of the dream.

The war cleric might consider many of the bonds. 2 might be interesting.

Quote from: Larsdangly;780560I haven't read enough of the book to know whether I'm having my brain sucked out by a transmedia rail road. But leafing through the thing, it seems like it must be possible to run it in a more conventional way. Like, I looked at the duel people mentioned, and I think it is likely that guy is going to get his ass handed to him by the character my brother is playing right now, so we're going to be off in some alternate reality outside the transmedia railroad, where that half dragon dickhead is dead and there is some other reason why the PC's learn about the various other parts of the setting and adventure. Does anyone know the book well enough yet to tell me why this thing can't be run in re-shaped pieces like that, rather than in the linear scripted way its intended?

It is. The players make characters. The DM offers to tie the setting into bonds and background features. The PCs show up to a friendly village and see it under attack. The DM says, what do you do?

I fail to see the difficulty in running this adventure as a player character driven adventure. DM sets up event. PCs react. PCs then act on their own or DM sets up another event if they don't. Continue doing so while playing D&D 5E and building a campaign.

Quote from: Kravell;780577I could see the necromancer considering having Bond 9. Maybe he was studying dracoliches.

The human assassin might consider being a cult of the dragon infiltrator.

Maybe the sorcerer has bond 3 and is haunted by these dreams. If the player likes this bond and runs with it, maybe each wild surge gives a clearer glimpse of the dream.

The war cleric might consider many of the bonds. 2 might be interesting.

Thanks!

I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.

It is intended to be railroad by design for the first 4 adventurers of the campaign, after which it opens up in player choices as expected of most other campaigns for the remaining 3 in this book and 7 in the next.

This campaign is intended for new gms and players to get their feet wet with.  

As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

As for my personal take on it, it's pretty much a cut above everything paizo has put out over the last few years if you are willing to make some minor changes here and there.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.

It is intended to be railroad by design for the first 4 adventurers of the campaign, after which it opens up in player choices as expected of most other campaigns for the remaining 3 in this book and 7 in the next.

This campaign is intended for new gms and players to get their feet wet with.  

As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

As for my personal take on it, it's pretty much a cut above everything paizo has put out over the last few years if you are willing to make some minor changes here and there.

Why oh why is the whole " for new DMs" excuse trotted out as a defense of scripted storylines?

I was brand new DM with Moldvay Basic and the DM section didn't need to give me advice for a scripted storyline to get my feet wet.

Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

For sure.

Basically I run pre-written adventures as a bunch of hooks, locations and events that may or may not be triggered by the heroes as they play. If the initial hook doesn't fit my players' interests, I change it to something that will.

Sometimes, if the adventure had key events that "had" to happen to move the story forward, I usually introduced (either bluntly or through clues) a rival party of heroes (or villains) who'd go through the motions.

Basically, just like in sandbox play, the world moves on and along despite the heroes' action or inaction.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782826Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

When my friends and I started to GM (WFRP 1st ed) we assumed that we had to run the adventures AS-WRITTEN, no deviation allowed. Sure we were dumb. To be honest, if we had been taught to modify and improvise more (or had started with more location-based modules), we probably would've developed our GM skills quicker and better.

In my opinion (and this is neither exactly right or wrong), I believe that a better adventure module for 1st time GMs would be a location-based rather than event or plot-based. Easier to handle, in my opinion, and would foster some improvisational problem-solving skills.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.
.

Um...yes it is.  Nothing in that link says it isn't.  And as an AL DM, I can tell you with 100% certainty that HotDQ was designed for the AL specifically as their kick off product for the AL.  Tyranny of Dragons is what the AL adventure Encounters series is called for Christ's sake.  And if you log into the DM-only early access site for the material for AL, it's all centered around this adventure path.

Sure it's geared toward bringing in new players, but that's not contradictory of the AL since the AL is meant to do the same thing.  The past three weeks of me DMing Encounters was called "New Player Sessions" as a matter of fact.

And if you want more proof, Mearls himself has said that the purpose of HotDQ was so everyone can have the shared experience of going up against Tiamat.  He even replied to me directly when I expressed concern about it being too scripted (see the quote above).

So sorry, they aren't assumptions I'm making.  They are cold facts I see when I log into the DM only site.  They are direct responses from Mearls himself.  It seems you are the one making assumptions based on an article that doesn't even mention AL at all in it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782826Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

Can you blame them  for assuming that?  I mean, have you read the forums of players lately?  ;)

It's worth noting that the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the adventure that comes with the Starter Set, is more open-ended and sandboxy than the first book of HotDQ seems to be. It certainly doesn't have any of the scripted encounters cited in HotDQ. So I chalk up the approach of HotDQ as trying to beat Paizo at their own game rather than offering an easy introduction to new DMs. Which is fine. I'll just use Phandelver to kick off my campaign and then convert some 4E adventures to follow.

Quote from: Haffrung;782839It's worth noting that the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the adventure that comes with the Starter Set, is more open-ended and sandboxy than the first book of HotDQ seems to be. It certainly doesn't have any of the scripted encounters cited in HotDQ. So I chalk up the approach of HotDQ as trying to beat Paizo at their own game rather than offering an easy introduction to new DMs. Which is fine. I'll just use Phandelver to kick off my campaign and then convert some 4E adventures to follow.

That's probably a good way to do it.  And to put this to rest, here is definitive proof that HotDQ was designed for AL.  When you log in as an AL DM, this is what you see (Well, there's a lot more if you scroll down, but this is the relevant part):

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fhgk3JN64AE/U_yonsZXbXI/AAAAAAAABf0/S6NBkCOSeQs/w576-h727-no/tyranny.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/avip7zS.jpg)

Well... bye.

Finished reading it last night.

It's definitely a "linear adventure path," and the major episodes do have to be played in order.

However, within each episode, there are plenty of options and choices for the PCs, and this AP need not be played on a strict timeline (though one is implied), so it would be possible for PCs to engage in modest side treks - at least through the first three-quarters of it.

It's also possible to skip a couple of the middle episodes, though not recommended.

I found the duel piece very contrived and unnecessary and it is out. Fortunately, it is a small part of the episode that affects nothing but a dumb speech the baddy would give at a later time, which my group would never give him a chance to finish anyway.

There are some interesting locations, circumstances and NPCs. Not all of them, but enough to earn a "thumbs up."

I especially like the fact that it's filled with non-combat challenges: stealth, scouting, spying, diplomacy and a small amount of mystery solving. A group that never departs from "hack and slash" mode is probably going to get in over its heads at multiple points.

The PCs do have to "buy in" to one predominant feature of this thing, which is supported by both payoffs and the urging of NPC factions.

MINOR SPOILER:    

*

*

*

The adventure involves the PCs tracking and spying upon one branch of the Cult of the Dragon, in order to trace them to their "higher-ups" and to get info and details concerning the "Master Plan." If the PCs go Rambo and just kill everyone in sight, this is not going to happen. There are points where this would be tempting. But they will need to realize that it would short-circuit the main objective. If it happens anyway, it would be very hard to get the path back on track - at least for several episodes.


*

*

*

As a whole, I'd say the whole thing is on par with the average Paizo AP, except of course, that it would represent at least two modules. I've seen better; I've seen worse.

Biggest letdowns: Some of the interior art is relatively cartoony. A couple of more map or location closeups would have helped a lot. Most of the monster appendix has to be downloaded.

Still enough interesting stuff that, overall, I give it a solid "B".

I picked it up hoping there was more DM/Player related stuff in it. I'm not a module-guy, but I read it through and I agree with Saplatt's general review.

My players would tear it to pieces in several places. It's not unusable...

BUT... Sapplatt you said the thing that I WISHED they would have done:

give me a big blowup version of the map. MAN... what a missed opportunity. I have buyers remorse now.

I get the feeling that the linear aspects arise not to accommodate beginning GMs but as its a campaign designed to take PCs from levels 1 to 15.

Sandboxes are easier when you are looking at a smaller range band of levels as the wide variety of choices generally makes support for anything past the immediate difficult. As such, Phandelver, Legacy of the Crystal Shard, Madness of Gardmore Abbey and Expedition of Ravenloft are presented in a sandbox way. However, they simply deal with the "what next" by listing some loose story hooks.

For a longer campaign, a linear structure, especially early on, helps to ensure that the material presented later on is relevant. The GM will necessarily need to exercise their skill to make any prewritten long term campaign work for their individual players. Expecting any less is just naiive.

And this has been true to an extent of D&D adventures since the very beginning. Dragonlance is a veritable railroad. Even GDQ is a linear series of smaller sandbox adventures. Then you have those adventures in the middle like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom that are sandboxy at times, but still have an element of linear structure to support the length of the cmapaign.

Overall, from what I have heard, Hoard of the Dragon Queen sounds pretty good for what it is. People who like sandbox style campaigns shouldn't buy it and will either write their own or purchase one of the narrower range band adventures like Phandelver or Legacy of the Crystal Shard (the latter being one of the best examples of a D&D sandbox IMO).

Different products for different folks.

Quote from: tenbones;782917BUT... Sapplatt you said the thing that I WISHED they would have done:

give me a big blowup version of the map. MAN... what a missed opportunity. I have buyers remorse now.

I really hope WotC and their partners revive the use of regional player maps. One thing I hated about 3E and 4E adventures is they would go to the expense of including awesome full-colour maps... of a single encounter area that would be used in a single session for 60-90 minute battle. But I have to shank something together for a player map of the region that will used for 8-12 sessions all session long. Why not go with the map that has more utility?

Quote from: Skywalker;782922And this has been true to an extent of D&D adventures since the very beginning. Dragonlance is a veritable railroad. Even GDQ is a linear series of smaller sandbox adventures. Then you have those adventures in the middle like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom that are sandboxy at times, but still have an element of linear structure to support the length of the cmapaign.

True. I just hope we at least see more of Night Below/Red Hand of Doom format. And really, whatever the need for a sequential adventure to cover levels 1-15, there's no excuse for scripted encounters. At all. They're just bad design by writers who think they have a better idea of what will make for a dramatic scene than anything the DM and players come up with on their own.

Quote from: Haffrung;782926True. I just hope we at least see more of Night Below/Red Hand of Doom format. And really, whatever the need for a sequential adventure to cover levels 1-15, there's no excuse for scripted encounters. At all. They're just bad design by writers who think they have a better idea of what will make for a dramatic scene than anything the DM and players come up with on their own.

Scripted encounters aren't bad design per se. Whether they are good or not they work is both a matter of preference and implementation. D&D has historically had a number of successful adventures that use scripted encounters to some extent, including both Night Below and Red Hand of Doom.

At the moment, its very hard to determine if the negative reactions to Hoard of the Dragon Queen are an issue with implementation, or just a matter of preference. I suspect both, though more the later than the former. I hope to confirm this when my copy arrives.

There is currently five sandbox adventures for 5e (Phandelver, Crystal Shard, Baldur's Gate, Scourge of the Sword Coast and Dead in Thay) and one adventure path campaign (Hoard of the Dragon Queen). I think it makes sense to cater to both styles to some extent, if the idea is to support the widest audience.

Quote from: Haffrung;782926I really hope WotC and their partners revive the use of regional player maps. One thing I hated about 3E and 4E adventures is they would go to the expense of including awesome full-colour maps... of a single encounter area that would be used in a single session for 60-90 minute battle. But I have to shank something together for a player map of the region that will used for 8-12 sessions all session long. Why not go with the map that has more utility?

Totally! Dragon Magazine had the beautiful Forgotten Realms map of the whole continent in quarters.

This map - http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120201174035/forgottenrealms/images/1/10/Map_-_Faerun_-_3E.jpg

I got mine all laminated - it's massive. They need to do that with 5e - like in the module. The map they have in there for the Sword Coast is REALLY good. I just want MORE.

Quote from: tenbones;782963Totally! Dragon Magazine had the beautiful Forgotten Realms map of the whole continent in quarters.

You farging bastage, now I want to bust out the Grey Box and get my Daggerford on.

Quote from: CRKrueger;782974You farging bastage, now I want to bust out the Grey Box and get my Daggerford on.

My Cyclopaedia of the Realms book is currently sitting next to my 5e PHB :)

Quote from: tenbones;782917give me a big blowup version of the map.

You can have it (http://theredepic.bigcartel.com/product/the-sword-coast) (though it will cost you 30 bucks)

Quote from: kobayashi;783212You can have it (http://theredepic.bigcartel.com/product/the-sword-coast) (though it will cost you 30 bucks)

The image on that site is quite large. It wouldn't blow up to full poster size but you could print it at A4 and even A3 pretty well.

Read through it last night and came away thinking it felt a bit unfinished and sketchy.

Maybe they have bitten off more than they can chew - it covers levels 1 through 7, with lots of overland travel in just 94 pages, an eighth of which are taken up by art. Or maybe it's the contrast between the high production values and solid binding, and the somewhat sparsely described NPCs and locations.

I like most of the plot elements, and love that many episodes, especially in the city under siege, are freeform, leaving it up to the players how and in what order they want to tackle the challenges. But it reads like it will take a lot of prep work from the GM (and/or great improvisation skills) to really make it sing.

Also, there's a lot of encounters in the first episode, although with weak foes. A bunch of bad rolls, and a group of 1st level characters may well end up sitting out most of the action.

So, yes, B- ... and not exactly for first time GMs.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782826Why oh why is the whole " for new DMs" excuse trotted out as a defense of scripted storylines?

It's practically a truism that what experienced players think new GMs want is actually the exact opposite of what they want and need:

"They need a railroad!" No. They don't. Railroaded plots are actually extremely difficult to GM successfully. What new GMs need are robust scenarios that don't fall apart the minute a player makes the "wrong" choice.

"They need super simple rules!" No. What new GMs want are clear-cut answers about how to adjudicate specific situations. The ideal system for a new GM is one of medium weight that provides lots of specific support for a wide range of actions without getting into a lot of special circumstances or fiddly math.

I finished my review yesterday. You can find it at tenfootpole, or here on the front page/reviews section of the therpgsite.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;783376I finished my review yesterday. You can find it at tenfootpole, or here on the front page/reviews section of the therpgsite.

Thanks for the link. Excellent review, really nailed what's missing in this adventure.

I gmed the first episode last night.

Short version : my players liked it a lot (4 players, three of them veteran players who started playing with AD&D1e).

Longer version : I changed some things here and there. The attack took place at night while the PCs were already in the village and I didn't use the "save the mill" and "sally port" encounters.

What worked
The Appendix A which allows you to give each PC a good reason to be there is excellent. The players felt their characters were at the center of something important, they didn't wait for someone to give them orders : "we're here to learn more about this Cult of the Dragon and kick their ass". They were very proactive and I did not need to have an NPC (=Governor Nighthill) showing them what to do next.

The Awesome part or "why I stopped worrying and learned to enjoy dice and randomness"

One of the PC, a dragonborn paladin accepted the half-dragon challenge. This guys has 57 hp and quite frankly is expected to mop up the floor with a level 1 character but, as always, dice come into play...

First attack : I get a 1, I described how the mighty halfdragon just ends on his butt after slipping in the mud. The player did not taker advantage of this, just saying "come on man, just get up and let's finish this".

I attack again... and get another 1 ! This time I say the half-dragon looses his weapon... The paladin points his weapon at him and basically says "you're screwed, now get off my lawn", the villagers in the keep see the paladin as a great champion, the players are high-fiving each other.

So is it the best campaign ever ? Of course not, but my players enjoyed this first episode a lot, we just had a great time. Episode 2 is already planned for next week...

Whoa.  Trying to avoid spoilers here, but for those of you who have the book, check out the event that starts midway through the first column of page 36.

At first, I didn't pay much attention to this encounter. Then I looked up the CRs for the adversaries in the HotDQ appendix.

Holy crap.  Each one is a CR 8. The party at this point is not presumed to be any higher than 5th level.

According to the basic DMG guidelines, a "deadly" encounter for a party of 4 level five characters is supposed to be set around 4,400 experience points.

The encounter above would have a value of 15,600.

Edit: I'm talking about the free online appendix (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/HoardDragonQueen_Supplement1.pdf), because that's where the entries appear in this case.

Quote from: Saplatt;783892Whoa.  Trying to avoid spoilers here, but for those of you who have the book, check out the event that starts midway through the first column of page 36.

At first, I didn't pay much attention to this encounter. Then I looked up the CRs for the adversaries in the HotDQ appendix.

Holy crap.  Each one is a CR 8. The party at this point is not presumed to be any higher than 5th level.

yeah, the PCs will probably get the tar kicked out of them. However, there is not much incentive for the things in question to actually kill them. So they will probably just knock the PCs out and do something unpleasant with their unconscious bodies.

It's going to be a first-class ass-kicking. I suppose it doesn't have to be fatal, but it still bugs me that, unlike the situation with higher-profile monsters, I don't think most PC groups would see this coming until it's way too late.

How useful will this module be for a completely different setting?

Quote from: Will;783910How useful will this module be for a completely different setting?

If you wanted to run this whole thing in Greyhawk or Golarion, you'd have to do some work to incorporate the factions, cults and geography, but it could be done.

If you're just looking for stuff to chop and steal, it's less useful.  

In the book, you get about a dozen NPC opponents, some of whom could be imported (stat-wise) to other settings. You'd have to re-tool their motivations and backgrounds. Not sure at this point how easy it will be to make up your own class-based NPCs based on the info in the MM or DMG.

You get about 9 small maps of dungeons and/or buildings, which could be imported. Most of them are fairly simple and generic. There is a pretty cool cloud castle.

There are some "caravan encounters" that could be reworked.

But for the price? Nah, I think I'd pass on this unless you plan on running it.

Yeah, I have a setting that doesn't even have elves or dwarves. Ok, thanks.

Quote from: Saplatt;783892Whoa.  Trying to avoid spoilers here, but for those of you who have the book, check out the event that starts midway through the first column of page 36.

At first, I didn't pay much attention to this encounter. Then I looked up the CRs for the adversaries in the HotDQ appendix.

Holy crap.  Each one is a CR 8. The party at this point is not presumed to be any higher than 5th level.

According to the basic DMG guidelines, a "deadly" encounter for a party of 4 level five characters is supposed to be set around 4,400 experience points.

The encounter above would have a value of 15,600.

Edit: I'm talking about the free online appendix (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/HoardDragonQueen_Supplement1.pdf), because that's where the entries appear in this case.

According to the WotC boards, an early playtest version had four transformed Slaads before that was kiboshed.

At least they won't wake up as Easter egg baskets.

Quote from: Will;783910How useful will this module be for a completely different setting?

Im planning to re-tool it for our own start up setting. Either a pre BECMI Karameikos. Or something totally new that will develop from play.

Interesting "fixes" for HotDQ here (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Hoard%20of%20the%20Dragon%20Queen), including some suggested by Zak S.

I'm going to use some of these and introduce others of my own, and we begin in one week.

Daniel Doyle (Save vs Magic blog) also has quite a few great fixes.

I have some also: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4wpCwKDa4dCU09YOWFxWEdpTGM/edit?usp=sharing

I suspect that the major producers of modules are kind of a lost cause at this point; their product is glossy and finished and has a uniform sophisticated artistic style — and is almost completely taken over by setting-specific, railroad adventure designs. But, I'm sure with a little patience folks like Goodman Games will get some fun, free-form modules out there. It doesn't take much — a dozen solid dungeons can go a long way.

Quote from: Larsdangly;785177I suspect that the major producers of modules are kind of a lost cause at this point; their product is glossy and finished and has a uniform sophisticated artistic style — and is almost completely taken over by setting-specific, railroad adventure designs. But, I'm sure with a little patience folks like Goodman Games will get some fun, free-form modules out there. It doesn't take much — a dozen solid dungeons can go a long way.

I don't know why they have to be mutually exclusive - why we can't have professional layout and graphic design at the service of setting-based, flexible adventures?

I don't buy Goodman Games books anymore (or Frog God books) because they look like they were edited and laid out by someone's brother-in-law in exchange for a couple cases of beer. And my experience in publishing in general is the professionalism of the layout is a strong indicator of the professionalism of the content. If reading the book and using it in play isn't a smooth and pleasant experience, you aren't getting my money.

If the major publishers release mainly railroaded epic stories, then I'm wiling to accept that's because railroaded epic stories are what the market wants. So those kind of books are responsive to the fanbase, and good business. What I question is whether they're the best way to showcase 5E.

WotC has published some very good sandboxy, setting-based dungeon adventures. The weird thing is, they published them for 4E, a game that's poorly suited to sandboxy dungeon adventures, and is better suited to railroaded epic storylines. WotC seems to have a persistent problem of misaligning its adventure content with its game systems.

If someone at WoC or one of their more professional partners had the balls to publish the modern equivalent of a ~30 page pastel module or a boxed set megadungeon I would shit my pants with glee. I just doubt they will do it. They are clearly focused on setting specific tie ins and other shite like that, and have been assimilated by the railroad adventure-design borg. I suspect your only real option is going to be a cool dungeon laid out on a dusty desktop computer in exchange for a case of beer.

Quote from: Larsdangly;785190If someone at WoC or one of their more professional partners had the balls to publish the modern equivalent of a ~30 page pastel module or a boxed set megadungeon I would shit my pants with glee. I just doubt they will do it.

They have. And quite recently. The first 4E adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell, is a straight-up dungeon crawl. No railroad, no Forgotten Realms tie-in. The second adventure published for 4E, Thunderpsire Labyrinth, is an underdark sandbox with an underground 'wilderness' map in the vein of D1-2, and several mini-dungeons in it. Madness at Gardmore Abbey is a huge sandbox site with all kinds of factions and mini-dungeons. It offers several possible big-picture quest chains with variable patrons, or the party can take smaller quests, or just play it as a sandbox. Again, no saving the world storyline, and no Forgotten Realms tie-in. If they were published for AD&D, they would be probably be considered classics today.

The problem is the old-school community is oblivious to these dungeons because they didn't play 4E, and the 4E community disliked many of them because they were too old-school and 'grindy', and thus unsuitable to epic 4E (which should have only a few climactic combat encounters). It's a surpassing irony that my 5E campaign is going to eschew flagship 5E adventures in favour of converted 4E adventures because the 4E adventures offer a more old-school feel.

Quote from: Haffrung;785193They have. And quite recently. The first 4E adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell, is a straight-up dungeon crawl. No railroad, no Forgotten Realms tie-in. The second adventure published for 4E, Thunderpsire Labyrinth, is an underdark sandbox with an underground 'wilderness' map in the vein of D1-2, and several mini-dungeons in it. Madness at Gardmore Abbey is a huge sandbox site with all kinds of factions and mini-dungeons. It offers several possible big-picture quest chains with variable patrons, or the party can take smaller quests, or just play it as a sandbox. Again, no saving the world storyline, and no Forgotten Realms tie-in. If they were published for AD&D, they would be probably be considered classics today.

The problem is the old-school community is oblivious to these dungeons because they didn't play 4E, and the 4E community disliked many of them because they were too old-school and 'grindy', and thus unsuitable to epic 4E (which should have only a few climactic combat encounters). It's a surpassing irony that my 5E campaign is going to eschew flagship 5E adventures in favour of converted 4E adventures because the 4E adventures offer a more old-school feel.

The idea of having to run a group through a 4e sweep of the Horned Hold in Thunderspire Labyrinth makes me faint dead away with a bad case of the vapors. I had to pull out the magic hand wave.

Well, maybe it isn't too late. I am certainly one of those people who missed these because I gave up on 4E a couple of months after it was published. I actually gave it the old college try, and had no problem with the basic conceptual structure of the rules, but just couldn't deal with the 2 hour set-piece combats. So I shit canned it before the adventures were published.

Quote from: Larsdangly;785219Well, maybe it isn't too late. I am certainly one of those people who missed these because I gave up on 4E a couple of months after it was published. I actually gave it the old college try, and had no problem with the basic conceptual structure of the rules, but just couldn't deal with the 2 hour set-piece combats. So I shit canned it before the adventures were published.

KOTS came out with the core books.


However, if was the long set piece combats that turned you off looking at this module wouldn't have helped.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;785240KOTS came out with the core books.


However, if was the long set piece combats that turned you off looking at this module wouldn't have helped.

Indeed. I think any of the three work well as a base to run some other version though.

I can't talk of any of the other modules, but Thunderspire Labyrinth is a quite nice site, though it has some kinks, iirc.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;785240KOTS came out with the core books.


However, if was the long set piece combats that turned you off looking at this module wouldn't have helped.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;785241Indeed. I think any of the three work well as a base to run some other version though.

Yep. Ignore the tactical encounter maps and you can run KotD just like the Caves of Chaos, Thunderspire like D1-D2, and Gardmore Abbey like T1-4. Mearls and Co designed a bunch of 1E AD&D style dungeons for a system where each combat should be a special and climactic encounter. Crappy for 4E. Great for versions with simpler and faster combat, or supportive of hit and run tactics.