I haven't read enough of the book to know whether I'm having my brain sucked out by a transmedia rail road. But leafing through the thing, it seems like it must be possible to run it in a more conventional way. Like, I looked at the duel people mentioned, and I think it is likely that guy is going to get his ass handed to him by the character my brother is playing right now, so we're going to be off in some alternate reality outside the transmedia railroad, where that half dragon dickhead is dead and there is some other reason why the PC's learn about the various other parts of the setting and adventure. Does anyone know the book well enough yet to tell me why this thing can't be run in re-shaped pieces like that, rather than in the linear scripted way its intended?

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;780374That alone sold me on the book.

After futzing around with mock fights online I finally talked my main offline group to try 5E.

They are walking into Tyranny of Dragons cold.

What's fun is the group.

Human Necromancer (combat caster)

Human Assassin (grapler)

Human War Cleric (Polearm Master)

Tiefling Wild Blood Sorcerer

Ya...gonna be one of those parties.

Any advice for the early part of the adventure?

I could see the necromancer considering having Bond 9. Maybe he was studying dracoliches.

The human assassin might consider being a cult of the dragon infiltrator.

Maybe the sorcerer has bond 3 and is haunted by these dreams. If the player likes this bond and runs with it, maybe each wild surge gives a clearer glimpse of the dream.

The war cleric might consider many of the bonds. 2 might be interesting.

Quote from: Larsdangly;780560I haven't read enough of the book to know whether I'm having my brain sucked out by a transmedia rail road. But leafing through the thing, it seems like it must be possible to run it in a more conventional way. Like, I looked at the duel people mentioned, and I think it is likely that guy is going to get his ass handed to him by the character my brother is playing right now, so we're going to be off in some alternate reality outside the transmedia railroad, where that half dragon dickhead is dead and there is some other reason why the PC's learn about the various other parts of the setting and adventure. Does anyone know the book well enough yet to tell me why this thing can't be run in re-shaped pieces like that, rather than in the linear scripted way its intended?

It is. The players make characters. The DM offers to tie the setting into bonds and background features. The PCs show up to a friendly village and see it under attack. The DM says, what do you do?

I fail to see the difficulty in running this adventure as a player character driven adventure. DM sets up event. PCs react. PCs then act on their own or DM sets up another event if they don't. Continue doing so while playing D&D 5E and building a campaign.

Quote from: Kravell;780577I could see the necromancer considering having Bond 9. Maybe he was studying dracoliches.

The human assassin might consider being a cult of the dragon infiltrator.

Maybe the sorcerer has bond 3 and is haunted by these dreams. If the player likes this bond and runs with it, maybe each wild surge gives a clearer glimpse of the dream.

The war cleric might consider many of the bonds. 2 might be interesting.

Thanks!

I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.

It is intended to be railroad by design for the first 4 adventurers of the campaign, after which it opens up in player choices as expected of most other campaigns for the remaining 3 in this book and 7 in the next.

This campaign is intended for new gms and players to get their feet wet with.  

As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

As for my personal take on it, it's pretty much a cut above everything paizo has put out over the last few years if you are willing to make some minor changes here and there.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.

It is intended to be railroad by design for the first 4 adventurers of the campaign, after which it opens up in player choices as expected of most other campaigns for the remaining 3 in this book and 7 in the next.

This campaign is intended for new gms and players to get their feet wet with.  

As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

As for my personal take on it, it's pretty much a cut above everything paizo has put out over the last few years if you are willing to make some minor changes here and there.

Why oh why is the whole " for new DMs" excuse trotted out as a defense of scripted storylines?

I was brand new DM with Moldvay Basic and the DM section didn't need to give me advice for a scripted storyline to get my feet wet.

Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821As far as fixing the railroading that appears early on, any half decent dm worth his weight in garbage will be able to make the adjustments needed.

For sure.

Basically I run pre-written adventures as a bunch of hooks, locations and events that may or may not be triggered by the heroes as they play. If the initial hook doesn't fit my players' interests, I change it to something that will.

Sometimes, if the adventure had key events that "had" to happen to move the story forward, I usually introduced (either bluntly or through clues) a rival party of heroes (or villains) who'd go through the motions.

Basically, just like in sandbox play, the world moves on and along despite the heroes' action or inaction.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782826Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

When my friends and I started to GM (WFRP 1st ed) we assumed that we had to run the adventures AS-WRITTEN, no deviation allowed. Sure we were dumb. To be honest, if we had been taught to modify and improvise more (or had started with more location-based modules), we probably would've developed our GM skills quicker and better.

In my opinion (and this is neither exactly right or wrong), I believe that a better adventure module for 1st time GMs would be a location-based rather than event or plot-based. Easier to handle, in my opinion, and would foster some improvisational problem-solving skills.

Quote from: Batman_Ate_My_Orbs;782821I had to join just to make this post because there are sooo many people in this thread making assumptions without the facts.  I've picked it up and seen for myself how wrong some of the assertions here are but you could have simply just done a search for more information:

http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page18252.php#.U_yQwWNjzwM

The campaign was NOT designed for leagues.
.

Um...yes it is.  Nothing in that link says it isn't.  And as an AL DM, I can tell you with 100% certainty that HotDQ was designed for the AL specifically as their kick off product for the AL.  Tyranny of Dragons is what the AL adventure Encounters series is called for Christ's sake.  And if you log into the DM-only early access site for the material for AL, it's all centered around this adventure path.

Sure it's geared toward bringing in new players, but that's not contradictory of the AL since the AL is meant to do the same thing.  The past three weeks of me DMing Encounters was called "New Player Sessions" as a matter of fact.

And if you want more proof, Mearls himself has said that the purpose of HotDQ was so everyone can have the shared experience of going up against Tiamat.  He even replied to me directly when I expressed concern about it being too scripted (see the quote above).

So sorry, they aren't assumptions I'm making.  They are cold facts I see when I log into the DM only site.  They are direct responses from Mearls himself.  It seems you are the one making assumptions based on an article that doesn't even mention AL at all in it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;782826Its either a deliberate play style influence choice or the writers are assuming a lower level of basic competence for new DMs these days.

Can you blame them  for assuming that?  I mean, have you read the forums of players lately?  

It's worth noting that the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the adventure that comes with the Starter Set, is more open-ended and sandboxy than the first book of HotDQ seems to be. It certainly doesn't have any of the scripted encounters cited in HotDQ. So I chalk up the approach of HotDQ as trying to beat Paizo at their own game rather than offering an easy introduction to new DMs. Which is fine. I'll just use Phandelver to kick off my campaign and then convert some 4E adventures to follow.

Quote from: Haffrung;782839It's worth noting that the Lost Mines of Phandelver, the adventure that comes with the Starter Set, is more open-ended and sandboxy than the first book of HotDQ seems to be. It certainly doesn't have any of the scripted encounters cited in HotDQ. So I chalk up the approach of HotDQ as trying to beat Paizo at their own game rather than offering an easy introduction to new DMs. Which is fine. I'll just use Phandelver to kick off my campaign and then convert some 4E adventures to follow.

That's probably a good way to do it.  And to put this to rest, here is definitive proof that HotDQ was designed for AL.  When you log in as an AL DM, this is what you see (Well, there's a lot more if you scroll down, but this is the relevant part):

Well... bye.

Finished reading it last night.

It's definitely a "linear adventure path," and the major episodes do have to be played in order.

However, within each episode, there are plenty of options and choices for the PCs, and this AP need not be played on a strict timeline (though one is implied), so it would be possible for PCs to engage in modest side treks - at least through the first three-quarters of it.

It's also possible to skip a couple of the middle episodes, though not recommended.

I found the duel piece very contrived and unnecessary and it is out. Fortunately, it is a small part of the episode that affects nothing but a dumb speech the baddy would give at a later time, which my group would never give him a chance to finish anyway.

There are some interesting locations, circumstances and NPCs. Not all of them, but enough to earn a "thumbs up."

I especially like the fact that it's filled with non-combat challenges: stealth, scouting, spying, diplomacy and a small amount of mystery solving. A group that never departs from "hack and slash" mode is probably going to get in over its heads at multiple points.

The PCs do have to "buy in" to one predominant feature of this thing, which is supported by both payoffs and the urging of NPC factions.

MINOR SPOILER:    

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The adventure involves the PCs tracking and spying upon one branch of the Cult of the Dragon, in order to trace them to their "higher-ups" and to get info and details concerning the "Master Plan." If the PCs go Rambo and just kill everyone in sight, this is not going to happen. There are points where this would be tempting. But they will need to realize that it would short-circuit the main objective. If it happens anyway, it would be very hard to get the path back on track - at least for several episodes.


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As a whole, I'd say the whole thing is on par with the average Paizo AP, except of course, that it would represent at least two modules. I've seen better; I've seen worse.

Biggest letdowns: Some of the interior art is relatively cartoony. A couple of more map or location closeups would have helped a lot. Most of the monster appendix has to be downloaded.

Still enough interesting stuff that, overall, I give it a solid "B".

I picked it up hoping there was more DM/Player related stuff in it. I'm not a module-guy, but I read it through and I agree with Saplatt's general review.

My players would tear it to pieces in several places. It's not unusable...

BUT... Sapplatt you said the thing that I WISHED they would have done:

give me a big blowup version of the map. MAN... what a missed opportunity. I have buyers remorse now.

I get the feeling that the linear aspects arise not to accommodate beginning GMs but as its a campaign designed to take PCs from levels 1 to 15.

Sandboxes are easier when you are looking at a smaller range band of levels as the wide variety of choices generally makes support for anything past the immediate difficult. As such, Phandelver, Legacy of the Crystal Shard, Madness of Gardmore Abbey and Expedition of Ravenloft are presented in a sandbox way. However, they simply deal with the "what next" by listing some loose story hooks.

For a longer campaign, a linear structure, especially early on, helps to ensure that the material presented later on is relevant. The GM will necessarily need to exercise their skill to make any prewritten long term campaign work for their individual players. Expecting any less is just naiive.

And this has been true to an extent of D&D adventures since the very beginning. Dragonlance is a veritable railroad. Even GDQ is a linear series of smaller sandbox adventures. Then you have those adventures in the middle like Night Below or Red Hand of Doom that are sandboxy at times, but still have an element of linear structure to support the length of the cmapaign.

Overall, from what I have heard, Hoard of the Dragon Queen sounds pretty good for what it is. People who like sandbox style campaigns shouldn't buy it and will either write their own or purchase one of the narrower range band adventures like Phandelver or Legacy of the Crystal Shard (the latter being one of the best examples of a D&D sandbox IMO).

Different products for different folks.