I bought a copy as part of a pre-order deal through my local game store, so it was like buying it at half price.

Seems like a quality adventure, but...

(1) I'm not a fan of hardback modules. Give me little softcover booklets and fold-out maps and I'm a lot happier. Since there isn't a PDF version, I have no easy way to use the maps in game play.

(2) I'm not used to this style of module, where you follow a pre-determined linear path from A to B. I've played in some like this and clearly they can be fun, but when I DM my campaigns they tend to be a lot more freeform. My favorite modules are the old AD&D monochromes where players get to decide where they go and what they do, rather than having to follow a scripted plot. I'm hoping to give this one a try, but I suspect there will be a learning curve involved for me.

Quote from: Haffrung;778840While I'm all for letting players learn their limitations the hard way, I do have a problem with how this scene was set up. There's a monster you can't possibly beat that is scripted to to kill NPCs and scare the NPCs. Not only is it too much like a cut-scene for my liking, but it has the potential to go all kinds of wrong. It's bad adventure design on a par with villains who are scripted to recover an item and escape with it.

So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

I think it's only a problem if the pc' are forced to fight the dragon.

I intensely dislike adventures that walk the players from scene to scene, triggering plot points when they behave 'correctly'. It just feels like someone took the idea of D&D and turned it completely inside out. I like Mines of Phan. fine; it can be run pretty effectively as a sandbox (especially chapter 3). But the Dragon Queen adventure sounds like it might be pretty crap in this respect. Can anyone who owns it comment on the feasibility of using it with a group that is going to do what they want to do and go where they want to go?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778810I highly doubt that any adventure divided into episodes, with a defined ending has any meaningful PC choice included at all.

Like most of Paizo's adventures the plot thread that connects the encounters are based on the most rational or most obvious choice. If you opt for that choice then the path abort and the campaign will spiral into a different direction.

The individual episode are usually broad enough that there are multiple methods of getting to the ending point.

If done right the path will seem natural as everything follows from the initial commitment. If not done well then it will seem like a railroad as bad as Dragonlance.

These tentpole adventures are meant to provide common experiences for D&D's player base. Like Keep on the Borderlands. But Paizo's adventure paths have fostered the expectation that the shared experiences aren't the adventure setting, but specific scenes, complete with timed attacks and canned NPC dialog. Basically cut-scenes.

It's not even the linearity I dislike so much about APs; a lot of old-school AD&D series like A and U series were pretty much linear. It's the cut-scenes I hate. Scripted climatic or plot-moving scenes that need A, B, and C to occur before they're triggered. What if the party skipped B and killed the wrong guy at step C?

Quote from: Haffrung;778896These tentpole adventures are meant to provide common experiences for D&D's player base. Like Keep on the Borderlands. But Paizo's adventure paths have fostered the expectation that the shared experiences aren't the adventure setting, but specific scenes, complete with timed attacks and canned NPC dialog. Basically cut-scenes.

It's not even the linearity I dislike so much about APs; a lot of old-school AD&D series like A and U series were pretty much linear. It's the cut-scenes I hate. Scripted climatic or plot-moving scenes that need A, B, and C to occur before they're triggered. What if the party skipped B and killed the wrong guy at step C?

I tend to view 'scripted encounters' as optional, or to be adjusted as required.
So they don't bother me. I suppose I don't view modules as a script, but as a general backdrop.

Quote from: Brasidas;778464All this sounds hopeful, but I've mined out the part I'd like more information on.

Do you think the maps and encounters would be useful outside the module?  For example, is there a tavern map that would be useful as a sort of generic template I could use down the road?

There are two village maps, a roadhouse, a two level castle, and a fog giant floating castle that could all be used elsewhere. The dungeon maps are interesting as well.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778810I highly doubt that any adventure divided into episodes, with a defined ending has any meaningful PC choice included at all.

I disagree. Assuming the PCs will go from episode 1 to 8 is likely; just as the PCs going from room 1 to 20 in a dungeon is very likely

Remember Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth? The PCs has to unlock all the doors before getting to the middle and got teleported everywhere along the way. But the adventure assumes they will press on and succeed. This module is the same way.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;778846It's kind of like someone heard about old school play sometimes involving monsters that cannot be defeated but (not having any experience with old school play) interpreted that tidbit into the cut scene nightmare we see here.

Steve Winter started at TSR in 1981. Pretty sure he knows old school.

Quote from: Larsdangly;778860I intensely dislike adventures that walk the players from scene to scene, triggering plot points when they behave 'correctly'. It just feels like someone took the idea of D&D and turned it completely inside out. I like Mines of Phan. fine; it can be run pretty effectively as a sandbox (especially chapter 3). But the Dragon Queen adventure sounds like it might be pretty crap in this respect. Can anyone who owns it comment on the feasibility of using it with a group that is going to do what they want to do and go where they want to go?

This adventure is not a dungeon crawl. This adventure is not a hex crawl.

This adventure is an event (a village expected to be a haven found under attack) that offers clues and rewards for following up on what happens. The PCs choose to get involved or not in each case. If they prefer to just wander off randomly, ignoring any backstories that tie them to the adventure then the DM will have to wing it and just use the campaign map to make up random stuff. Various dungeons in the module could be tossed out for exploration.

I would suggest asking the players if they want to slowly unravel a dangerous cult's plans and pursue them. If yes, make backstories that match per the adventure and go. If no, convert a 1E module or an Expert hexcrawl and do that instead for a  5E campaign.

Episode 1: you arrive at a village and find instead of a haven that is it under attack. What do you do? Info is given on the results of a variety of responses including doing nothing.

Episode 2: If the PCs stuck around, the PCs are offered gold to go after the raiders and gather info. If the PCs left the village this doesn't happen. Get out a dungeon.

Episode 3: Offered a reward to go back to the raider's camp and see if they are planning another raid.

Basically, this adventure doesn't work if the PCs don't want to oppose a dangerous cult. I'd ask them first if that type of campaign appeals.

Quote from: Haffrung;778840So I don't see it as an old-school versus new-school thing. Are there any old-school D&D modules where 1st level PCs are attacked by a 12+ HD monster at the very outset of the first session?

Maybe not 12 HD, but the most famous module of all time, B2, was sort of like that.  Walk into the wrong cave as brand new level 1 PCs and get eaten by an owlbear.  Or skewered by a minotaur.


Also, and this isn't directed at you personally, let's not forget plenty of old school popular AD&D modules were just as scripted as much as this one is.  The Slavers series comes to mind.  As does the GDQ series.  By the very nature of an adventure module's limitations (page count), they are going to be scripted to some point with key plot points covered.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778957Maybe not 12 HD, but the most famous module of all time, B2, was sort of like that.  Walk into the wrong cave as brand new level 1 PCs and get eaten by an owlbear.  Or skewered by a minotaur.

Big difference between exploring and discovering something that's out of your league (and that you can presumably avoid or flee from), and taking part in a mandatory and scripted scene where you're attacked by a monster that it's impossible for you to defeat.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778957Also, and this isn't directed at you personally, let's not forget plenty of old school popular AD&D modules were just as scripted as much as this one is.  The Slavers series comes to mind.  As does the GDQ series.  By the very nature of an adventure module's limitations (page count), they are going to be scripted to some point with key plot points covered.

I pointed that out myself upthread. As I said, the thing I dislike is scripted scenes and encounters. Give me a setting, some adversaries, some hooks, and some goals. I'm good. I can even tolerate it if those goals are linear in nature (though I prefer if they aren't). But don't describe a particular scene because I can do that myself, and it will be a scene generated by the particulars of my playgroup and their actions (along with my imagination), not storyboarded as an action scene by an author.

The 'scripting' that occurs in 1E and BD&D modules is not very obnoxious because it is very mechanical. You may need to do certain things in a certain order because the places or things are connected like a big trap. Or, one module leads to another in a series (A, G, D), just as one room leads to another in a dungeon crawl or you get to one hex by going through another in a hex crawl. In general these don't mold and manipulate player behavior.

Quote from: Kravell;778946Steve Winter started at TSR in 1981. Pretty sure he knows old school.

That was just a theory. Another theory is that adventures that lead players by the nose have been selling well and this is about making money after all.

I forgot not to attribute something to ignorance that could be better explained by greed.

Quote from: Kravell;778940There are two village maps, a roadhouse, a two level castle, and a fog giant floating castle that could all be used elsewhere. The dungeon maps are interesting as well.

The others bring up some good points too.  I guess I'll have to sit down in the store for a few minutes and give it a good perusal before I decide to buy or not.