Quote from: Vanquishing Leviathan;842370Professional fighters can and do get get dropped, not just after wearing them down (as I've pointed out before, see below), but it can also happen while they are still fresh. So yes, some real fights play out like D&D - going from full fighting ability to completely out in the span of a single hit. The very thing you call "pretty silly" and "isn't realistic, at all."

Yes some fights do, but it's more akin to a critical hit finishing someone off than the standard D&D combat where two trade shots until one suddenly drops. D&D practically treats each hit as a landed blow but has most of them doing nothing of substance.

Most often a flush shot has consequences for a fighter, ones that often reduce his effectiveness. I had my nose broken in a sparring match, swallowing my own blood and having to breath out of my mouth made me less effective. I carried on but it point blank diminished me. D&D doesn't really model something like that, the same shot would have chipped a few HP off but changed nothing at a practical level.

Quote from: Arminius;842295I don't know if you took my comment as a jibe or criticism but I meant it as exactly the opposite. What you described is what I was suggesting earlier in the thread--a way of getting some of the benefits of HM without the detail and complication.

Sorry for giving that impression, I didn't take it as either - thanks for pointing out the similarities. I was only clarifying because the comparison might give the impression that Explore isn't a lightweight game.
I've been trying to interpret that combat table estar posted the link to!

I'll try to describe HM1's hit/injury system as clearly and succinctly as I can. 3e, which the chart is probably from, is simplified but I know it less well.

I'm also going to leave out detail that's not too relevant to the discussion, and if we're lucky that will also make the charts intelligible--there's just one 1e-specific element I'm going to mention, I think.

1. Attacker and defender roll appropriate skills and compare the degree of success/failure on a matrix. (Exact matrix depends on the type of attack/defense chosen.) A hit result tells you how many dice to roll and add to your weapon's impact rating.

2. Subtract armor from impact to get effective impact.

3. On another table, cross-index effective impact with the hit location. This gives you the effect. The general severity of the hit (the color) tells you how many dice to roll for wound points. (This is the 1e thing but I forget how 3e does it.) You keep track of each distinct wound, but instead of draining a general pool of HP, the cumulative wound total just acts as a penalty for skill rolls and saving throws.

4. The exact code and any symbols of the hit tells you its immediate effect. Like it may be a knockout, a dropped weapon, a bleeding wound* (gain more wound points every round), something chopped off, or outright death. Basically you have to make a saving throw to avoid the effect. The number in the code tells you how hard the saving throw is. (Mechanically you would roll that many dice, add 1/10 your total wounds, and try to get under the relevant attribute, usually Dex or Con, I believe.)

So you can see if you really wanted to simplify this down, aside from not using hit locations, you could also simplify the method of getting the effective impact into a single roll modified by various attack and defense factors. Then there's also no real need to roll for wound points--you can just use effective impact if you scale wound effects properly. And finally you just have a single set of thresholds for wound effects against which the victim must save.

*EDIT: Not that it really matters for an overview, but the bleeding effect might be what happens if you make your save against a killing blow, or what happens in addition to an amputation.

Quote from: Simlasa;842013Huh? In what My Little Pony corner of reality do wounds not suck? They're a bad thing... make it harder to concentrate and get stuff done. They're not gold stars that you collect and spend on a power-up.

Wounds tend to spurt rather than suck. Unless it is a chest wound. (Thank you ever so much for teaching me that elementary school!)

Quote from: Bren;842297And the rules on natural healing contradict the glancing blow theory.

DMG explains HP as mostly stamina and gradually degrading ability to dodge as you wear down. The last few hits may be the actual meat of the character.

Recovering from total exhaustion could take a while all on its own. and any incidental nicks and cuts.

Quote from: Arminius;842408So you can see if you really wanted to simplify this down, aside from not using hit locations, you could also simplify the method of getting the effective impact into a single roll modified by various attack and defense factors. Then there's also no real need to roll for wound points--you can just use effective impact if you scale wound effects properly. And finally you just have a single set of thresholds for wound effects against which the victim must save.

Columbia Game's Field of Daisies has a simplified version. There is only four hit locations for example. They managed to pare the system down to just 18 pages including character gen.

Quote from: Omega;842431Recovering from total exhaustion could take a while all on its own. and any incidental nicks and cuts.

I've been exhausted. Recovery from that doesn't take weeks. Recovery from real  injuries does. But those sorts of injuries do physical damage and also degrade your ability to act. I recovered much faster from post marathon exhaustion (a few days) then I did a badly separated shoulder (a few weeks and counting) or several cracked ribs (a few months). All three significantly decreased performance at the time and during recovery. (Who knew that walking down stairs backwards after running 26.2 miles would be easier than walking downstairs the normal way.)

D&D is fine as a game, but realism was never the intent nor it's strong point.

Quote from: Bren;842466I've been exhausted. Recovery from that doesn't take weeks. Recovery from real  injuries does.

Have you seen someone exhausted enough to hospitalize or kill them? I have.

But as said, HP represents skill, stamina, luck, meat.

Quote from: Omega;842430Wounds tend to spurt rather than suck. Unless it is a chest wound. (Thank you ever so much for teaching me that elementary school!)

Sure feels like it's sucking when you're trying to pull your spear out of the guy you just impaled.

I liked how Earthdawn did it, with lesser damage that didn't impede and wounds for damage that did. Lesser damage was easier to heal but having wounds made even that harder. Our PCs would often have a wound or two on them that stuck around several sessions... like a curse.

Quote from: Omega;842492Have you seen someone exhausted enough to hospitalize or kill them? I have.

But as said, HP represents skill, stamina, luck, meat.

And all HPs those hit points recover at the same rate. That of something considerably longer than a little exertion or stamina loss and a lot less than muscle tears, sprains, cracked or broken bones, slashes, and punctures actually take to heal. In D&D the 5 HPs lost by the 6 hit point first level character take exactly as long to heal as the 5 HPs lost by the 60 hit point higher level fighter. Tell me again what those 5 HPs represent when healing and why they heal at the same rate?

Quote from: Bren;842504And all HPs those hit points recover at the same rate. That of something considerably longer than a little exertion or stamina loss and a lot less than muscle tears, sprains, cracked or broken bones, slashes, and punctures actually take to heal. In D&D the 5 HPs lost by the 6 hit point first level character take exactly as long to heal as the 5 HPs lost by the 60 hit point higher level fighter. Tell me again what those 5 HPs represent when healing and why they heal at the same rate?

My bet is that they heal with the same rate to avoid calculations and to make potions and temples useful.

Quote from: AsenRG;842508My bet is that they heal with the same rate to avoid calculations and to make potions and temples useful.

I'd substitute clerics as a class rather than temples, but yeah, sure. Simplicity and game balance would be my guesses. Level-based hit points work as a fairly simple, game-able mechanic, but the gamey, unrealistic aspects don't work for me and is one of the three main reasons I switched from D&D and D&D-like games to Runequest.

Quote from: Bren;842515I'd substitute clerics as a class rather than temples, but yeah, sure. Simplicity and game balance would be my guesses. Level-based hit points work as a fairly simple, game-able mechanic, but the gamey, unrealistic aspects don't work for me and is one of the three main reasons I switched from D&D and D&D-like games to Runequest.

Yeah, same here, though it was GURPS first in my case, and then lots of others. I've started experimenting with D&D-style mechanics again, but only recently, courtesy of the OSR.

Still, HP does what it's expected to do. It's just not meant to be realistic, so it doesn't do realistic!
When Old Geezer said HP represents HP and losing it means you're low on HP, I had no reason to roll for disbelieving him. That's exactly how the mechanic works best, as an abstract Stress-like resource, and IMO any attempt to graft realism on top of it are better served by a different mechanic!

Quote from: AsenRG;842526That's exactly how the mechanic works best, as an abstract Stress-like resource, and IMO any attempt to graft realism on top of it are better served by a different mechanic!

That's basically how I've come to see it... and a big part of how I've been able to enjoy OSR games after years of hating on anything D&D. Embracing the abstract nature of it rather than trying to hammer it into something it's not.

Quote from: Bren;842504And all HPs those hit points recover at the same rate. That of something considerably longer than a little exertion or stamina loss and a lot less than muscle tears, sprains, cracked or broken bones, slashes, and punctures actually take to heal. In D&D the 5 HPs lost by the 6 hit point first level character take exactly as long to heal as the 5 HPs lost by the 60 hit point higher level fighter. Tell me again what those 5 HPs represent when healing and why they heal at the same rate?

In AD&D HP recovered fully after X time no matter.
You regained 1 HP per day - CON penalty at the end of a week. Got your CON bonus at the second weel and fully recovered no matter the damage at the end of 4 weeks.

Going to negative HP was where the real meat damage happened. You were out of it a week, period. And if you took enough damage you could suffer "horrible scars".