Quote from: ForgottenF on April 03, 2023, 09:13:42 PM

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM
To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

It's funny because in line with this topic, today I was trying to think about which of the books on my RPG shelf has all-over the best art in it, and the Red Box Player's Guide is probably top three.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

Trudvang Chronicles has some absolutely amazing art in it. I don't own that book in hard copy, or else it'd probably be the best I own. Outside of the Larry Elmore Basic Edition, the best book I do own for pure presentation is probably Black Void, which is a Modiphius product. Not a great game, but it's a really nice book. A lot of Free League's books are extremely high quality too. 

Generally, you're not going to get that kind of production value in the OSR, partially for budget reasons, and partially because slightly janky black-&-white art is part of the OSR aesthetic.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 05:19:11 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

The Lamentations aesthetic is going to be a love-it-or-hate-it for most people. To me it rides the line between legitimately interesting and tryhard cringe, sometimes falling on one side or the other. I'll happily argue though that the average art quality in Lamentations product is above the rest of the OSR, at least the games I'm aware of. The paper quality, formatting, etc. is also well above average in all the Lamentations products I've owned hard copies of, too.

Mechanically, I'm not going to argue that Lamentations is amazing. The encumbrance system is really good, and the skill system is better than what you get in most OD&D/Basic derivatives. But for the most part, it's just a very neat, well-organized version of the same game you can get in a large number of other OSR games.

I believe that is my primary issue with the game, I much prefer a more straightforward presentation and it does at times cross that line into "cringe". I guess it merely rubs me the wrong way, but I in no way disparage those that have no issue with its approach. If nothing else at least you can say that Raggi is indeed unwoke, so there is that at least....

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 04, 2023, 10:42:50 PM
Yeah, S&W is great. Lots of options, monsters, single save, and a great SRD.

Ok well I will take a look at it.

Quote from: Cathal on April 05, 2023, 12:44:46 PM
I suspect you are more of a beginner than me I'll try to quickly explain

With the OSR? Yes, I am new.  Role Playing? No, been doing it for 30 years.

Quote from: Cathal on April 05, 2023, 12:44:46 PM
The game is as good as the original D&D (D&D 0E) because it's a clone, uses the same rules, and is good as the explanation from authors of rules. I'll repeat "imitate closely" some clones are 90% from the original, and this is not a bad thing, it may fill a gab or something, or simplify a complex rule.

Yes S&W is great!

Interesting.  Going to check it out.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 06, 2023, 09:03:33 AM
With the OSR? Yes, I am new.  Role Playing? No, been doing it for 30 years.

Really? so sorry man. I was trying to help I'm very, very new, studying and reading for the last couple of months everything about TTRPG. Hopes it helps someone else reading that.

Back to the main topic

I like the Art Cover from this game Planes of Perils, from Pigames. I don't have the game yet.

https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=152

(cover below)



And the Art from this game Swords & Chaos From Blackspire Fantasy. Take a look at the PDF preview.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416477/Swords--Chaos

(cover below)

Quote from: Cathal on April 06, 2023, 02:44:14 PM
Really? so sorry man. I was trying to help I'm very, very new, studying and reading for the last couple of months everything about TTRPG. Hopes it helps someone else reading that.

No problem.  No offense taken.

Quote from: Cathal on April 06, 2023, 02:44:14 PM
Back to the main topic

I like the Art Cover from this game Planes of Perils, from Pigames. I don't have the game yet.

https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=152

(cover below)



And the Art from this game Swords & Chaos From Blackspire Fantasy. Take a look at the PDF preview.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416477/Swords--Chaos

(cover below)

Thanks for the link.  I will check these game out.

Unfortunately, Swords & Chaos is kind of a dog, despite its cool cover.  I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 06, 2023, 06:01:35 PM
Unfortunately, Swords & Chaos is kind of a dog, despite its cool cover.  I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

That's too bad.  Sounds like a dont recommend.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 06, 2023, 06:01:35 PM
I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:24:15 AM
This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

How often does this happen? I am curious as I was unaware of it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 08:55:30 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:24:15 AM
This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

How often does this happen? I am curious as I was unaware of it.

Pretty much, right now lots of OSR games are like this. That was I trying to say before, using other words , when we talked about B/X and one of my anger with lots of OSR games. As a beginner with not attached nostalgia I only see repeated games, labeled as something new, and at the same time is difficult for me to quickly identify game like this.

What I know, the first generation OSR games were or mostly retroclones which mean "almost the same legally" for specific versions of D&D from the range of years I mentioned before. Broadly speaking, these games had specific goals, better writing, better interpretation, to fill some gaps here and there, new adventures, and to allow people to play those editions of D&D.

Years ago it was hard to find or buy D&D for those specific editions, the company stopped supporting and releasing adventures many years ago. Keep in mind that these games are not like video games that don't run on the newest operating system, you can perfectly play these editions of D&D.

Broadly speaking second generation of OSR games was, not just cool art or better wording, it has innovation and new mechanics, interesting/gonzo new settings etc

At some point, people started releasing every D&D edition to make money when it is no longer necessary. PDF of the original and first editions are already available, taking advantage of nostalgia for some, and taking advantage of the OSR popularity (mess). Now, with better legal understanding, is a chaos now everyone copies each other to make quick money, with no novel feature. Oh! Don't forget that some people twist the words and definition to include their game into the "OSR" 

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Pretty much, right now lots of OSR games are like this. That was I trying to say before, using other words , when we talked about B/X and one of my anger with lots of OSR games. As a beginner with not attached nostalgia I only see repeated games, labeled as something new, and at the same time is difficult for me to quickly identify game like this.

What I know, the first generation OSR games were or mostly retroclones which mean "almost the same legally" for specific versions of D&D from the range of years I mentioned before. Broadly speaking, these games had specific goals, better writing, better interpretation, to fill some gaps here and there, new adventures, and to allow people to play those editions of D&D.

I knew when I got Old School Essentials that was what I was getting, a retroclone that was basically already published rules that were packaged in a way that was clear, instead of trying to dig through many different books trying to piece it all together.

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Years ago it was hard to find or buy D&D for those specific editions, the company stopped supporting and releasing adventures many years ago. Keep in mind that these games are not like video games that don't run on the newest operating system, you can perfectly play these editions of D&D.

So True.

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Broadly speaking second generation of OSR games was, not just cool art or better wording, it has innovation and new mechanics, interesting/gonzo new settings etc

At some point, people started releasing every D&D edition to make money when it is no longer necessary. PDF of the original and first editions are already available, taking advantage of nostalgia for some, and taking advantage of the OSR popularity (mess). Now, with better legal understanding, is a chaos now everyone copies each other to make quick money, with no novel feature. Oh! Don't forget that some people twist the words and definition to include their game into the "OSR" 

Hmm, interesting.