When did each see widespread use, at the table; and when did they not? I know I've seen many old school maps, laid out with Hex Grids. BX, BECMI, etc. I'm also aware that Square Grids have seen tons of use; when not running theater of the mind, at the table.
I know about the wargamming roots, of D&D.
I'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games. Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
Looking forward to this topic.
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMI'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games. Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
Original D&D implied either square grid or open tabletop (i.e. like miniatures).
I think Tunnels & Trolls might have had more theater of the mind. I'd have to look back over it. It had a more abstract combat system, and some solo modules.
SJG's _Melee_ and GDW's _Traveller_ both came out in 1977, and they might be the earliest use of hex grid in RPGs, though hex grids were common in wargames at the time.
As I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.
https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2024, 03:40:53 AMQuote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMI'd like to hear about the rigid use in some systems, vs the optional use in others; once RPGs broke away from the older war games. Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
...
I think Tunnels & Trolls might have had more theater of the mind. I'd have to look back over it. It had a more abstract combat system, and some solo modules.
...
To quote Original T&T "Each combat is a unique and individual experience that must really be played by ear" (pg. 9) It didn't have movement rules, it did have combat but not combat rounds. So maps would only be used to give an overview. In later editions time handling was added: a combat round takes 2 minutes, a regular round 10 minutes. Still no movement handling in the core rules. But with the length of the combat round that would be silly. As it would be also silly to make an attack roll so a roll simply for possible damage was compared with the result from the enemy.
So no need for grid or hex maps in T&T.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.
https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/
Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.
https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/
Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?
I don't know. I kind of doubt it. My impression is that they used theater of the mind mostly, with maybe some grid use for combat.
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.
https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/
Were there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration,
Combat, etc.?
Not exactly sure how others might have used hexes long ago, but I have used hexes for outdoor combat playing various editions of classic D&D. Outdoor ranges are expressed in yards vs feet indoors. So for an outdoor combat starting at longer ranges, a hex map with a scale of 10 yards per hex does the trick without requiring a HUGE hex map to be able to utilize missile weapons at range in an outdoor encounter.
Dragon Quest used a hex grid exclusively, including indoors. Not surprising, since the 1st and 2nd editions were by SPI before TSR bought them out, mainly known for its simulation war games.
Fantasy Hero came along later (as a spin off from Champions). It also used hexes exclusively.
I always found hex grids incredibly annoying for any indoor location. So much so that I experimented with using offset squares instead in Fantasy Hero. Wish I'd thought of it when playing Dragon Quest, as It would have been a lot easier. Also, since I was making my own mats on poster board, would have been a heck of a lot easier to layout, too.
Offset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps. It's never really caught on, though. I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids. Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMOffset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps. It's never really caught on, though. I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids. Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.
A few years aback SJ Games came out with Cardboard Dungeons which supports hexes and squares. Their trick was to squash the hexes a bit in the up and down directions. I was pretty impressed with how well it worked.
https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/#dungeonfloors
(https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/img/3x3room-sm.jpg)
Quote from: estar on August 19, 2024, 02:57:35 PMQuote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMOffset squares a good compromise for a system that wants to be "all hex" in play, but do a lot of indoor maps. It's never really caught on, though. I assume because such mats wouldn't be standard, and about the time it became obvious it was a good choice, we were moving out of the do it yourself era in such gaming aids. Maybe also because offset squares are a triumph of substance over style, but they look distinctly inelegant.
A few years aback SJ Games came out with Cardboard Dungeons which supports hexes and squares. Their trick was to squash the hexes a bit in the up and down directions. I was pretty impressed with how well it worked.
https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/#dungeonfloors
(https://www.sjgames.com/heroes/img/3x3room-sm.jpg)
Looks Pretty Cool. I like it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 02:18:44 PMQuote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 12:19:26 PMWere there any systems or segments of the hobby, that used Hex Maps, instead of Square Grid Maps; for Dungeon Exploration, Combat, etc.?
I don't know. I kind of doubt it. My impression is that they used theater of the mind mostly, with maybe some grid use for combat.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 19, 2024, 02:39:11 PMDragon Quest used a hex grid exclusively, including indoors. Not surprising, since the 1st and 2nd editions were by SPI before TSR bought them out, mainly known for its simulation war games.
Fantasy Hero came along later (as a spin off from Champions). It also used hexes exclusively.
Dragon Quest and Fantasy Hero were predated by _Melee_ (1977). The 1977 original was a board game of fighting in an arena, but when combined with later games in the series it became a full-fledged RPG - "The Fantasy Trip".
(https://thefantasytrip.game/site/assets/files/1396/square_2pt_fantasy_trip_in_the_labyrinth_copy.png)
https://thefantasytrip.game/about/
I haven't minded hex maps for indoors. I think square grids tend to make designers/GMs draw exactly 5ft or 10ft wide corridors that only turn at 90 degree angles - and that can be limiting. With hex maps, it's clear from the beginning that the hexes are arbitrary.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 19, 2024, 04:38:56 AMAs I understand it the use of a hexmap for overland travel was heavily inspired by the Avalon Hill board game Outdoor Survival.
https://www.blackgate.com/2013/07/28/the-secret-supplement-greyhawk-gygax-and-outdoor-survival/
Indeed, the OD&D rules recommended Outdoor Survival are part of the equipment needed (after the D&D rules themselves but before polyhedral dice) just for the board
Also bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.
Quote from: JeremyR on August 19, 2024, 05:37:25 PMAlso bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.
Thanks. I have that book.
D&D started in dungeons and drawing a dungeon on graph paper is easy, on a hex paper, less so.
Quote from: JeremyR on August 19, 2024, 05:37:25 PMAlso bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.
That's right. I remember we never used them because none of the ranges or movement values were in hexes or squares, and so you had to figure it out for yourself. We just did theater of the mind instead.
Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2024, 03:40:53 AMOriginal D&D implied either square grid or open tabletop (i.e. like miniatures).
But it also suggests Wilderness Survival for the map. Which was a hex grid.
From what Gygax does in AD&D I always got the impression they used square grids for indoor and dungeons and hex grid for outdoors.
I've primarily always used theater of the mind. I do use a square grid sometimes, for short range encounters.
I got curious about all the hex grid maps, i see for classic OSR D&D settings, etc. I wondered if hex grids had also seen use, on a scale smaller than those setting maps?
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AM... Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular? ...
Is this how it went? My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back. Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats. Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience. If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.
Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AMMy group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back. Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats. Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience.
I agree that most people find combat with a mat clearer. But I think that has everything to do with it being a visual representation, and nothing at all to do with it being superimposed by a grid. In fact, my experience is that combats become
clearer still when using a
gridless mat to illustrate combat.
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
Its been a thing from the start. According to Monard, Gygax never used minis in his D&D sessions.
But from about 2010 on there was a hard push by storygamers. Some to the point of wanting to remove the game part. At which point its not even an RPG anymore or even role playing in any sane sense.
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
I think the better question is when
grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became
popular until 3e.
Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AMQuote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AM... Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular? ...
Is this how it went? My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back. Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats. Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience. If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.
My experience mirrors Zalman's, with the addition that it seems to be a trajectory that is player by player.
The mat is a game aid. What I've found that actually works best is:
1. Start a player with theatre of the mind. Keep them focused on the narration and description and how they interact with the world.
2. When they have that down, start mixing in the grid. Not 100%, but it can be a majority of the time. This polishes off some rough edges of their understanding of the system. That don't completely lose the abilities they gained in step #1, but those abilities do get dulled. (If you go 100% grid, for some players it will dull really fast, and a few will lose it.)
3. Once the system knowledge imparted from the grid is gained, you can start phasing it out for all but the complicated or intricate fights. Because the grid is now imposed in their visualization as a tool they can turn on or off as they need to. The attention to narration and description will resume. Because they are now conditioned for it being turned on or off, using it for the big stuff does not lead to the dullness in step #2.
It's not always that smooth. Sometimes a player isn't new when you get them, and that changes things based on their prior experience. However, overtime I've found some version of that trajectory to produce the kind of game that I want: The mat is
only a tool. It's not required or forbidden. The players function well with and without it. In fact, you can even start a fight without it, and introduce it mid fight (if helpful) and vice versa.
Finally, I've also found that some version of the above maximizes the other techniques in between theatre of the mind and full grid. For example, just putting some dice down on the table to indicate "archers over here, spearman over there" and then the players putting some miniatures down for their relative position. Some players even get to the point that they can move their own minis a reasonable distance as if the grid was on the table.
Everything above will still work, with some adjustment, in a game that is very tactical on movement and position--but it will be a slog and probably not worth the effort, at least not without house rules. It's one of the reasons I built my own system to be tactical on things other than movement and position.
Of course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find. My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games. AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 20, 2024, 09:44:06 AMOf course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find. My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games. AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.
We live in an age of plentiful gaming supplies, compared to those early days. You can find anything you can think of, now. In the early days, when they said pencil and paper games, they really meant it.
Quote from: David Johansen on August 20, 2024, 09:44:06 AMOf course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find. My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games. AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.
Back in the 80's I bought several large fold out sheets of hex paper for world mapping. I still have them. I miss the Armory.
Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AMIs this how it went? My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back. Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats. Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience. If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.
I always used theater of the mind because I didn't have enough miniatures and alternates were all lame and it was pretty easy. Then I played on a VTT and there is no choice, but I'm not sure I could go back. I love when the players are f-ing around and I pop a wandering monster onto the screen at the edge of their light and see how long it takes, and how close it gets, before anyone notices.
Quote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AMQuote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
I think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.
wotc definitely pushes the grid over the hex.
Being wotc, odds are very high that is because they do not think players are intelligent enough to understand hex movement.
Quote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AMQuote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?
I think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.
My experience mirrors this. We used grids in 1e to map out dungeons, because the grids make measurement by eye easy, but no one I knew played out combats as anything other than TotM until 3e...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 20, 2024, 04:06:33 PMQuote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AMI think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.
My experience mirrors this. We used grids in 1e to map out dungeons, because the grids make measurement by eye easy, but no one I knew played out combats as anything other than TotM until 3e...
In the 1980s, Dragon magazine had plenty of advertisements for miniature figures and battle mats, so some people were definitely using them. When I went to conventions back then, I saw some games played using miniatures - but most of the ones I played were Theater of the Mind.
I think grids might have been more popular in the 1970s when there were a lot of dedicated wargamers playing, but then they grew less popular when D&D peaked in popularity with a younger crowd. It was hard to get minis and mats back then, especially if one was a teenager on a limited budget.
3e did make use of them more popular.
Can only speak for my group. We played hex-based wargames before D&D so understood how hex mats could be used. Nevertheless, we didn't use them at first. From 1976 - 1983 or so, we did simple combats using figures to show who was engaged with whom, but no measured distances. For more complex combats we used a ruler and scale, as was common then and now for miniature skirmish games, which is how I remember OD&D being written. Everything was in inches. When 1st edition was released we carried on the same way, although I don't recall if the books were still including distances in inches or not. Starting around 1983 (+/- 2 yrs), a friend found a vinyl hex mat on which we could write and erase (sort of - as long as you didn't leave it on overnight). That prompted us to start using hexes for combat and we developed house rules for using hexes. The big tech advance was the writing and erasing part.
For wilderness maps we started with the Outdoor Survival board and then I started making my own maps on square graph paper (never having seen hex graph paper at that point).
The other game we played in the late 70's to early 80's was Traveller. We used range bands and a game board that came with some football (American) game. We could track distance along one axis, which was good enough.
AD&D first edition still used inches as did Holmes Basic. I can't remember if Basic did or not, but they all used Coin Weights for Encumbrace. Second edition changed all that with the introduction of feet and pounds. Generally I'm not a fan of second edition AD&D but I'm all for feet and pounds over inches and coin weights as units of measurement.
I'm a big fan of hex maps. Of course, Avalon Hill and the tabletop wargames popularized the hex maps, but I think The Fantasy Trip system was the first to utilize it in an RPG. Shame SJG went red on Ocule's list. I was a devotee of the system and even developed a lot of hex maps for them. All I know is that my 1981 D&D box had the 64-room Caves of Chaos map laid out in squares. I assumed that square maps were integrated early in the history of role-playing games, and it began in the beginning, with D&D. I prefer playing on hex maps, but overwhelmingly, RPG maps, and fan-created maps available online, are laid out on squares.
I understand with Steven Mitchell's frustration with using hex maps on interiors. Also, it makes sense to use "offset squares" as a compromise. They're aligned like hexes, but have that potential for making regular-looking structures with right angles. For dungeon crawls, however, hexes work pretty well, because it gives a dungeon a more organic feel. I wrote a book of hex maps for use in rpgs. Some are dungeons, others are structures. I tried to work withing the limitations of hexes in making perimeters with right angles, and actually produced a few nice interior maps.
The reason you see more grid maps is because they are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Grids work for indoors and dungeon use. Hexes for wilderness and outdoor use.
Its also easier to get grid paper than hex paper by a huge factor.
As noted elsewhere. When Hasbro handed HeroScape off to wotc, it was retooled to D&D. The hex grid works excellent for outdoors and cave complexes. A but of course gets dodgy when trying to do regular dungeons that arent geared to a hex grid. I converted the HeroQuest map to a HeroScape style once.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/qTdknw3-ZRtmQGwGLhEJNA__medium/img/gu0koe0Nzeey_7bNB26WbEHJNdE=/fit-in/500x500/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic8378265.png)
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they [hexes] are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Not all have been a mess.
Here are details of a few hex interiors from my book,
Tactical Hex Maps for Fantasy RPGs, two of which I drew by hand. The first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275772723590598686/image.png?ex=66c71b70&is=66c5c9f0&hm=cec108a464cfb7caf3dcdb80f859f59a51baafe4e2dbeb517d5f91c198ce7f10&)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275772582712315984/image.png?ex=66c71b4e&is=66c5c9ce&hm=35ffedbbc87818ab7d953958369757a4d4fe878ca59e04d1c04c667ef719d2d9&)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275773366074343545/image.png?ex=66c71c09&is=66c5ca89&hm=1113e374ae184d6d0271e7f995eb297271c7c57153b7f59b157ae08cf478560f&)
Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AMThe first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
That appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 21, 2024, 12:47:47 PMQuote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AMThe first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
That appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.
Except for that last one, which actually does look fine. I've never actually had much issue with using hexes for rectangular building
Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AMQuote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they [hexes] are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Not all have been a mess.
Here are details of a few hex interiors from my book, Tactical Hex Maps for Fantasy RPGs, two of which I drew by hand. The first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275772723590598686/image.png?ex=66c71b70&is=66c5c9f0&hm=cec108a464cfb7caf3dcdb80f859f59a51baafe4e2dbeb517d5f91c198ce7f10&)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275772582712315984/image.png?ex=66c71b4e&is=66c5c9ce&hm=35ffedbbc87818ab7d953958369757a4d4fe878ca59e04d1c04c667ef719d2d9&)
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1165384084856508507/1275773366074343545/image.png?ex=66c71c09&is=66c5ca89&hm=1113e374ae184d6d0271e7f995eb297271c7c57153b7f59b157ae08cf478560f&)
Those seem fine, to me. Assuming an identical scale for Square vs Hex Grids; I could play on either, and not get too hung up about it. 5 spaces is 5 spaces, and close enough is good enough.
On a flat map it's fine because you can just stand the figure on the wall a bit. For modelled scenery not so much.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 21, 2024, 12:47:47 PMThat appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.
I'd agree for the first two, but that's what rectangular grids usually do as well. If you take floor plans that aren't made for the game and try to overlay a 5 foot square grid, the grid boxes won't line up with the doors and walls. A given room will have a bunch of partial grid squares all around its edges.
I think hex maps reduce the incentive for designers to twist their building designs to match the grid, and that can be a good thing.
Yes, I drew these on blue hex paper (that i made). #3 is one of my early uses of making a building with all 90 degree angles on hex paper. These are 4-foot hexes on these maps. Or, they can be 5 ft. without any issues.
Saw this on Twitter today, posted by the Basic Expert. It's from For What Price Glory from 1978. It used hexes for combat:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWJtOcua8AAsczT?format=png&name=900x900)
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Grids work for indoors and dungeon use. Hexes for wilderness and outdoor use.
Its also easier to get grid paper than hex paper by a huge factor.
As noted elsewhere. When Hasbro handed HeroScape off to wotc, it was retooled to D&D. The hex grid works excellent for outdoors and cave complexes. A but of course gets dodgy when trying to do regular dungeons that arent geared to a hex grid. I converted the HeroQuest map to a HeroScape style once.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/qTdknw3-ZRtmQGwGLhEJNA__medium/img/gu0koe0Nzeey_7bNB26WbEHJNdE=/fit-in/500x500/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic8378265.png)
I quite like what you did with the map. My game is solely hex based and I think I'm going to do that too. That said, I've never really had a problem with hexes in any context. If you accept that some hexes are going to be cut in half you can have all the quadrangular buildings you want. Make a ruling on whether or not you can stand in a half-hex and you're good to go either way.
If the hexes are big for indoors, like say 10ft. Then its less a problem. But when you get to the 5ft hexes or smaller then it gets dodgy.
But you get that no matter really hex or square. Somethings just not going to fit 100%.
I have a pad of TSR branded hex grid paper for outdoor mapping that I bought in 1981 - the wrapper drawing is a Bill Willingham depicting a group of lost outdoor adventurers trying to make a map. I remember there was also square grid pad on sale for dungeon maps.
The hex grids go back to war games in the 1970s - Rob Kuntz recalls Gary Gygax trying to create a world on hex grid paper the day after he play Arneson's Blackmoor, so hex paper has been used since before the beginning of D&D.
For Traveller range bands in the classic era, we just used lined paper and made pencil markings for terrain and chits or Snapshot cutouts for character movement.
I also have never played using miniatures - from 1979 onwards it was all theater of the mind for my groups.
Quote from: Omega on August 30, 2024, 06:03:10 PMIf the hexes are big for indoors, like say 10ft. Then its less a problem. But when you get to the 5ft hexes or smaller then it gets dodgy.
But you get that no matter really hex or square. Somethings just not going to fit 100%.
We never had any problem with the GURPS one yard hexes. I drew my GM maps to that scale so when it was time to break out the minis for combat no conversion was needed. We ruled by consensus that man sized or smaller creatures could occupy a half hex. When designing indoor maps I sketched it out on graph paper until it was what I wanted then drew the same map on hex paper.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 31, 2024, 09:29:41 AMQuote from: Omega on August 30, 2024, 06:03:10 PMIf the hexes are big for indoors, like say 10ft. Then its less a problem. But when you get to the 5ft hexes or smaller then it gets dodgy.
But you get that no matter really hex or square. Somethings just not going to fit 100%.
We never had any problem with the GURPS one yard hexes. I drew my GM maps to that scale so when it was time to break out the minis for combat no conversion was needed. We ruled by consensus that man sized or smaller creatures could occupy a half hex. When designing indoor maps I sketched it out on graph paper until it was what I wanted then drew the same map on hex paper.
What is this simplicity, of which you speak? Well done.
weird, but reading through the thread someone responded to one of my posts but the images I posted are missing now.
I think part of it is just that's it's a lot easier to draw a dungeon on a square grid than on a hex grid.