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History of Hex Map and Square Grid use, in RPGs?

Started by Man at Arms, August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AM

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Vidgrip

Can only speak for my group. We played hex-based wargames before D&D so understood how hex mats could be used. Nevertheless, we didn't use them at first. From 1976 - 1983 or so, we did simple combats using figures to show who was engaged with whom, but no measured distances. For more complex combats we used a ruler and scale, as was common then and now for miniature skirmish games, which is how I remember OD&D being written. Everything was in inches. When 1st edition was released we carried on the same way, although I don't recall if the books were still including distances in inches or not. Starting around 1983 (+/- 2 yrs), a friend found a vinyl hex mat on which we could write and erase (sort of - as long as you didn't leave it on overnight). That prompted us to start using hexes for combat and we developed house rules for using hexes. The big tech advance was the writing and erasing part.

For wilderness maps we started with the Outdoor Survival board and then I started making my own maps on square graph paper (never having seen hex graph paper at that point).

The other game we played in the late 70's to early 80's was Traveller. We used range bands and a game board that came with some football (American) game. We could track distance along one axis, which was good enough.

David Johansen

AD&D first edition still used inches as did Holmes Basic.  I can't remember if Basic did or not, but they all used Coin Weights for Encumbrace.  Second edition changed all that with the introduction of feet and pounds.  Generally I'm not a fan of second edition AD&D but I'm all for feet and pounds over inches and coin weights as units of measurement.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Cathode Ray

I'm a big fan of hex maps.  Of course, Avalon Hill and the tabletop wargames popularized the hex maps, but I think The Fantasy Trip system was the first to utilize it in an RPG.  Shame SJG went red on Ocule's list.  I was a devotee of the system and even developed a lot of hex maps for them.  All I know is that my 1981 D&D box had the 64-room Caves of Chaos map laid out in squares.  I assumed that square maps were integrated early in the history of role-playing games, and it began in the beginning, with D&D.  I prefer playing on hex maps, but overwhelmingly, RPG maps, and fan-created maps available online, are laid out on squares.

I understand with Steven Mitchell's frustration with using hex maps on interiors.  Also, it makes sense to use "offset squares" as a compromise.  They're aligned like hexes, but have that potential for making regular-looking structures with right angles.  For dungeon crawls, however, hexes work pretty well, because it gives a dungeon a more organic feel.  I wrote a book of hex maps for use in rpgs.  Some are dungeons, others are structures.  I tried to work withing the limitations of hexes in making perimeters with right angles, and actually produced a few nice interior maps. 
Creator of Radical High, a 1980s RPG.
DM/PM me if you're interested.

Omega

The reason you see more grid maps is because they are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.

Grids work for indoors and dungeon use. Hexes for wilderness and outdoor use.

Its also easier to get grid paper than hex paper by a huge factor.

As noted elsewhere. When Hasbro handed HeroScape off to wotc, it was retooled to D&D. The hex grid works excellent for outdoors and cave complexes. A but of course gets dodgy when trying to do regular dungeons that arent geared to a hex grid. I converted the HeroQuest map to a HeroScape style once.


Cathode Ray

#34
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they [hexes] are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Not all have been a mess.

Here are details of a few hex interiors from my book, Tactical Hex Maps for Fantasy RPGs, two of which I drew by hand.  The first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.


Creator of Radical High, a 1980s RPG.
DM/PM me if you're interested.

HappyDaze

Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AMThe first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
That appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.

Mishihari

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 21, 2024, 12:47:47 PM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AMThe first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.
That appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.


Except for that last one, which actually does look fine.  I've never actually had much issue with using hexes for rectangular building

Man at Arms

Quote from: Cathode Ray on August 21, 2024, 07:19:09 AM
Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they [hexes] are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.
Not all have been a mess.

Here are details of a few hex interiors from my book, Tactical Hex Maps for Fantasy RPGs, two of which I drew by hand.  The first two only use hex or half-hex size spaces.





Those seem fine, to me.  Assuming an identical scale for Square vs Hex Grids; I could play on either, and not get too hung up about it.  5 spaces is 5 spaces, and close enough is good enough.

David Johansen

On a flat map it's fine because you can just stand the figure on the wall a bit.  For modelled scenery not so much.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

jhkim

Quote from: HappyDaze on August 21, 2024, 12:47:47 PMThat appears to be because the buildings have non-rectangular floorplans (buildings composed of one or more intersecting rectangles), which isn't typically common to see. IOW, it looks like you built to fit the hexes rather than overlaying a hex map onto a building.

I'd agree for the first two, but that's what rectangular grids usually do as well. If you take floor plans that aren't made for the game and try to overlay a 5 foot square grid, the grid boxes won't line up with the doors and walls. A given room will have a bunch of partial grid squares all around its edges.

I think hex maps reduce the incentive for designers to twist their building designs to match the grid, and that can be a good thing.

Cathode Ray

Yes, I drew these on blue hex paper (that i made).  #3 is one of my early uses of making a building with all 90 degree angles on hex paper.  These are 4-foot hexes on these maps.  Or, they can be 5 ft. without any issues.
Creator of Radical High, a 1980s RPG.
DM/PM me if you're interested.

Eirikrautha

Saw this on Twitter today, posted by the Basic Expert.  It's from For What Price Glory from 1978.  It used hexes for combat:

"Testosterone levels vary widely among women, just like other secondary sex characteristics like breast size or body hair. If you eliminate anyone with elevated testosterone, it's like eliminating athletes because their boobs aren't big enough or because they're too hairy." -- jhkim

Mishihari

Quote from: Omega on August 21, 2024, 02:19:21 AMThe reason you see more grid maps is because they are totally unsuited for indoor use in any sane way. Theres been tries and they all have been a mess.

Grids work for indoors and dungeon use. Hexes for wilderness and outdoor use.

Its also easier to get grid paper than hex paper by a huge factor.

As noted elsewhere. When Hasbro handed HeroScape off to wotc, it was retooled to D&D. The hex grid works excellent for outdoors and cave complexes. A but of course gets dodgy when trying to do regular dungeons that arent geared to a hex grid. I converted the HeroQuest map to a HeroScape style once.



I quite like what you did with the map.  My game is solely hex based and I think I'm going to do that too.  That said, I've never really had a problem with hexes in any context.  If you accept that some hexes are going to be cut in half you can have all the quadrangular buildings you want.  Make a ruling on whether or not you can stand in a half-hex and you're good to go either way.

Omega

If the hexes are big for indoors, like say 10ft. Then its less a problem. But when you get to the 5ft hexes or smaller then it gets dodgy.

But you get that no matter really hex or square. Somethings just not going to fit 100%.

El-V

#44
I have a pad of TSR branded hex grid paper for outdoor mapping that I bought in 1981 - the wrapper drawing is a Bill Willingham depicting a group of lost outdoor adventurers trying to make a map. I remember there was also square grid pad on sale for dungeon maps.

The hex grids go back to war games in the 1970s - Rob Kuntz recalls Gary Gygax trying to create a world on hex grid paper the day after he play Arneson's Blackmoor, so hex paper has been used since before the beginning of D&D.

For Traveller range bands in the classic era, we just used lined paper and made pencil markings for terrain and chits or Snapshot cutouts for character movement.

I also have never played using miniatures - from 1979 onwards it was all theater of the mind for my groups.