Quote from: JeremyR on August 19, 2024, 05:37:25 PMAlso bear in mind that in the AD&D DMG, they also had rules (at least for flanking and such) for using hex maps in combat instead of squares.

That's right. I remember we never used them because none of the ranges or movement values were in hexes or squares, and so you had to figure it out for yourself. We just did theater of the mind instead.

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2024, 03:40:53 AMOriginal D&D implied either square grid or open tabletop (i.e. like miniatures).

But it also suggests Wilderness Survival for the map. Which was a hex grid.

From what Gygax does in AD&D I always got the impression they used square grids for indoor and dungeons and hex grid for outdoors.

I've primarily always used theater of the mind.  I do use a square grid sometimes, for short range encounters. 

I got curious about all the hex grid maps, i see for classic OSR D&D settings, etc.  I wondered if hex grids had also seen use, on a scale smaller than those setting maps?

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AM...  Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?  ...

Is this how it went?  My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back.  Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats.  Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience.  If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AMMy group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back.  Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats.  Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience.

I agree that most people find combat with a mat clearer. But I think that has everything to do with it being a visual representation, and nothing at all to do with it being superimposed by a grid. In fact, my experience is that combats become clearer still when using a gridless mat to illustrate combat.

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

Its been a thing from the start. According to Monard, Gygax never used minis in his D&D sessions.

But from about 2010 on there was a hard push by storygamers. Some to the point of wanting to remove the game part. At which point its not even an RPG anymore or even role playing in any sane sense.

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

I think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AM...  Also, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?  ...

Is this how it went?  My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back.  Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats.  Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience.  If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.

My experience mirrors Zalman's, with the addition that it seems to be a trajectory that is player by player. 

The mat is a game aid. What I've found that actually works best is:

1. Start a player with theatre of the mind.  Keep them focused on the narration and description and how they interact with the world.

2. When they have that down, start mixing in the grid.  Not 100%, but it can be a majority of the time.  This polishes off some rough edges of their understanding of the system. That don't completely lose the abilities they gained in step #1, but those abilities do get dulled.  (If you go 100% grid, for some players it will dull really fast, and a few will lose it.)

3. Once the system knowledge imparted from the grid is gained, you can start phasing it out for all but the complicated or intricate fights.  Because the grid is now imposed in their visualization as a tool they can turn on or off as they need to. The attention to narration and description will resume.  Because they are now conditioned for it being turned on or off, using it for the big stuff does not lead to the dullness in step #2.

It's not always that smooth.  Sometimes a player isn't new when you get them, and that changes things based on their prior experience.  However, overtime I've found some version of that trajectory to produce the kind of game that I want:  The mat is only a tool.  It's not required or forbidden.  The players function well with and without it.  In fact, you can even start a fight without it, and introduce it mid fight (if helpful) and vice versa. 

Finally, I've also found that some version of the above maximizes the other techniques in between theatre of the mind and full grid.  For example, just putting some dice down on the table to indicate "archers over here, spearman over there" and then the players putting some miniatures down for their relative position.  Some players even get to the point that they can move their own minis a reasonable distance as if the grid was on the table.

Everything above will still work, with some adjustment, in a game that is very tactical on movement and position--but it will be a slog and probably not worth the effort, at least not without house rules.  It's one of the reasons I built my own system to be tactical on things other than movement and position.

Of course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find.  My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games.  AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.

Quote from: David Johansen on August 20, 2024, 09:44:06 AMOf course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find.  My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games.  AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.

We live in an age of plentiful gaming supplies, compared to those early days.  You can find anything you can think of, now.  In the early days, when they said pencil and paper games, they really meant it.

Quote from: David Johansen on August 20, 2024, 09:44:06 AMOf course, early on blank hex grids and even photocopiers weren't all that easy to find.  My older brother actually drafted the hex grid by hand for our early games.  AD&D did officially use 10 foot squares indoors and 10 yard hexes outdoors with the range discrepancy representing the ceiling interfering with indirect fire.

Back in the 80's I bought several large fold out sheets of hex paper for world mapping. I still have them. I miss the Armory.

Quote from: Mishihari on August 20, 2024, 05:14:28 AMIs this how it went?  My group started off with theatre of the mind in Holmes Basic, then tried a Battlemat a few years later and never went back.  Using a mat was just a lot more fun and a lot clearer for combats.  Most other folks I've talked with have had the same experience.  If the opposite has actually been going on, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.

I always used theater of the mind because I didn't have enough miniatures and alternates were all lame and it was pretty easy. Then I played on a VTT and there is no choice, but I'm not sure I could go back. I love when the players are f-ing around and I pop a wandering monster onto the screen at the edge of their light and see how long it takes, and how close it gets, before anyone notices.

Quote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

I think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.

wotc definitely pushes the grid over the hex.

Being wotc, odds are very high that is because they do not think players are intelligent enough to understand hex movement.

Quote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 19, 2024, 02:11:45 AMAlso, when did theater of the mind, grow to be very popular?

I think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.

My experience mirrors this.  We used grids in 1e to map out dungeons, because the grids make measurement by eye easy, but no one I knew played out combats as anything other than TotM until 3e...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 20, 2024, 04:06:33 PM

Quote from: Zalman on August 20, 2024, 06:00:47 AMI think the better question is when grids became popular. I never saw a grid in play until well into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure they became popular until 3e.

My experience mirrors this.  We used grids in 1e to map out dungeons, because the grids make measurement by eye easy, but no one I knew played out combats as anything other than TotM until 3e...

In the 1980s, Dragon magazine had plenty of advertisements for miniature figures and battle mats, so some people were definitely using them. When I went to conventions back then, I saw some games played using miniatures - but most of the ones I played were Theater of the Mind.

I think grids might have been more popular in the 1970s when there were a lot of dedicated wargamers playing, but then they grew less popular when D&D peaked in popularity with a younger crowd. It was hard to get minis and mats back then, especially if one was a teenager on a limited budget.

3e did make use of them more popular.