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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 03:36:26 PM

Title: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 03:36:26 PM
Been reading through a bunch of old books for some historical pricing of items during the Late Middle Ages and thought I would share what I've found so far (some of it was taken from the Medieval Price List and others from the Calendar of Close Rolls for England).

I've included the historical pricing, the conversion to pure silver and/or gold based on historical ratio at the time, and the DnD conversion (based on 1 coin is 1/10 lb).

Biggest thing I've found is that a sheaf of arrows should be around the cost of an actual longbow and not as cheap as they are in most games.



Item                                                 Year      Pound      Shilling      Pence      Total Shilling       Total Pence       Silver(g)      Gold(g)      DnD sp      DnD gp
Sword (Peasants)                                     1345                               6            0.50                   6.00          7.284          0.580        0.161       0.013
Mail                                                 1150                 100                        100.00                 1,200.00      1,618.800                   35.688     
Ready Made Milanese armor                            1441      8          6             8            166.67                 2,000.00      1,798.000      174.056      39.639      3.837
Squire's armor                                       1441      6          16            8            136.67                 1,640.00      1,474.360      142.726      32.504      3.147
Bascinet                                             1369                 16            8            16.67                  200.00        222.000        19.338       4.894       0.426
Knight's armor                                       1374      16         6             8            326.67                 3,920.00      4,351.200      379.024      95.928      8.356
                                                           
Longbow – white                                      1341                               12           1.00                   12.00         16.188                      0.357     
Longbow – painted                                    1341                               18           1.50                   18.00         24.282                      0.535     
24 arrows (sheaf) steeled                            1341                               14           1.17                   14.00         18.886                      0.416     
24 arrows (sheaf) non-steeled                        1341                               12           1.00                   12.00         16.188                      0.357     
300 sheaves arrows                                   1359      21         5                          1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
400 sheaves arrows                                   1359      28         6             8            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
500 sheaves arrows                                   1359      35         8             8            1.42                   17.01         18.879         1.645        0.416       0.036
600 sheaves arrows                                   1359      42         10                         1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
700 sheaves arrows                                   1359      49         11            8            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
800 sheaves arrows                                   1359      56         13            4            1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
900 sheaves arrows                                   1359      63         15                         1.42                   17.00         18.870         1.644        0.416       0.036
400 painted bows, 200 white bows, 1000 sheaves       1359      145        16            8            2,916.67               35,000.00                       
200 painted bows, 400 white bows, 700 sheaves        1359      109        11            8            2,191.67               26,300.00                       
Painted Bow                                          1359                               36           3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
White Bow                                            1359                               18           1.50                   18.00         19.980         1.740        0.440       0.038
                                                           
                                                           
War Horse                                            1250      80                                    1,600.00               19,200.00     25,900.800                  571.015     
Riding Horse                                         1250      10                                    200.00                 2,400.00      3,237.600                   71.377     
Draft Horse                                          1250                 15                         315.00                 3,780.00      5,099.220                   112.419     
Draft Horse                                          1368                 10                         210.00                 2,520.00      2,797.200      243.659      61.668      5.372
Plough Mares                                         1368                 8                          168.00                 2,016.00      2,237.760      194.927      49.334      4.297
                                                           
                                                           
cow                                                  1350                 9             5            9.42                   113.00        137.182        10.931       3.024       0.241
cow                                                  1368                 10                         10.00                  120.00        133.200        11.603       2.937       0.256
cow bull                                             1368                 10                         10.00                  120.00        133.200        11.603       2.937       0.256
ox                                                   1350                 13            1.25         13.10                  157.25        190.902        15.211       4.209       0.335
ox                                                   1368                 13            4            13.33                  160.00        177.600        15.470       3.915       0.341
ox steer                                             1368                 6             8            6.67                   80.00         88.800         7.735        1.958       0.171
sheep                                                1350                 1             5            1.42                   17.00         20.638         1.644        0.455       0.036
sheep (muttons)                                      1368                               18           1.50                   18.00         19.980         1.740        0.440       0.038
sheep (ewes)                                         1368                               15           1.25                   15.00         16.650         1.450        0.367       0.032
sheep (hogs and tegs) (lambs)                        1368                               12           1.00                   12.00         13.320         1.160        0.294       0.026
pig                                                  1338                 2                          2.00                   24.00         26.640                      0.587     
pig (boars)                                          1368                 3                          3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
pig (swine)                                          1368                 3                          3.00                   36.00         39.960         3.481        0.881       0.077
pig                                                  1368                               15           1.25                   15.00         16.650         1.450        0.367       0.032
fowl                                                 1338                               1            0.08                   1.00          1.349                       0.030     
chicken                                              1350                               0.5          0.04                   0.50          0.607          0.048        0.013       0.001
goose                                                1375                               7.5          0.63                   7.50          8.325          0.725        0.184       0.016
                                                           
                                                           
Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                        1368                 6             8            6.67                   80.00         88.800         7.735        1.958       0.171
Rye – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                          1368                 4             6            4.50                   54.00         59.940         5.221        1.321       0.115
Barley – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                       1368                 4                          4.00                   48.00         53.280         4.641        1.175       0.102
Peas and Vetch – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)               1368                 3             4            3.33                   40.00         44.400         3.868        0.979       0.085
Oats – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                         1368                 2             6            2.50                   30.00         33.300         2.901        0.734       0.064
                                                           
                                                           
Pepper – 1 lb                                        1371                               12           1.00                   12.00         13.320         1.160        0.294       0.026
Cumin – 2 lb                                         1371                               3            0.25                   3.00          3.330          0.290        0.073       0.006


Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 18, 2023, 04:26:27 PM
Converted it to a document, will upload it to GDrive latter or tomorrow, there's some weird stuff going so I might have corrupted the data location, but pretty useful, thanks.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 05:39:47 PM
Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 05:39:47 PM
Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           

Yeah, ancient coins are minute. In movies gold coins are the size of quarters, or even silver dollars. In reality they could be smaller than the nail on your pinkie.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 06:17:54 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 18, 2023, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: LordBP on February 18, 2023, 05:39:47 PM
Some additional information I have on the coins. 

Trying to find exact dimensions are pretty much impossible, so having to derive some of them.

Biggest thing I learned there is that DnD coins are massive compared to real coins and not really even close to reality of what things cost. 

For example, the Penny that I have dimensions for is around the size of a dime, but about 1/3 to 1/4 of the thickness.


Year      Name                Weight      Pure Silver      Pure gold      Pence      Ratio      Coins/LB      Diam      Thick
1158      Penny               1.458       1.349                                                 311.11        15.00     0.73
1344      Penny               1.312       1.214                                                 345.73           
1344      Gold Double Florin  6.998                        6.962          72         12.55      64.82           
1351      Penny               1.200       1.110                                                 377.99           
1351      Gold Noble          7.776                        7.736          80         11.48      58.33           
          Gold Half Noble                                               
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1412      Penny               0.972      0.899                                                  466.67           
1412      Gold Half Noble     3.499                        3.481          40         10.33      129.63           
          Gold Quarter Noble                                               
1464      Penny               0.777      0.719                                                  583.55           
1464      Gold Half Angel     2.591                        2.578          40         11.16      175.03           

Yeah, ancient coins are minute. In movies gold coins are the size of quarters, or even silver dollars. In reality they could be smaller than the nail on your pinkie.
Yeah, I'm more finding that they are super thin to the point of almost being like paper at least for the coins I'm looking at from the time period.

Here is one of the gold nobles.

(https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/media/cache-bbp/97/39/97390897c21f8044deca2efdfd26c1ee.jpg)
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 18, 2023, 09:13:32 PM
The standard Carolingian denarius was defined to weigh such that 240 could be struck to a pound of silver. What generally varied over the Middle Ages was which pound you were talking about. The Carolingian pound itself seems to have been something like 410 g, while the English used first the Tower pound (about 350 g) until it was changed to the Troy pound (about 375 g). Meanwhile, D&D silver pieces are struck fifty to an avoirdupois pound (about 455 g), so comparatively they are absolutely massive.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 19, 2023, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 18, 2023, 09:13:32 PM
The standard Carolingian denarius was defined to weigh such that 240 could be struck to a pound of silver. What generally varied over the Middle Ages was which pound you were talking about. The Carolingian pound itself seems to have been something like 410 g, while the English used first the Tower pound (about 350 g) until it was changed to the Troy pound (about 375 g). Meanwhile, D&D silver pieces are struck fifty to an avoirdupois pound (about 455 g), so comparatively they are absolutely massive.

When did D&D go to 50 per pound?  I looked through the versions (BX, BECMI, Cyclopedia) that I had and it was all 10 to the pound.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
You may find this interesting:  Money Results (https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html), especially the links in that article to his earlier articles on the subject.

D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

I went with a hybrid system, based on the silver standard, but using the bottom end of the silver/gold exchange rate.  That let me use "copper pennies" as a tiny bit of silver in a copper/silver alloy as 1/5th of a larger silver coin, and then use a bronze/copper allow as a "bronze farthing" at 1/4 of the copper penny.  That gives 20 of the farthings at 1 "silver star," with some of the conveniences in player attitude discussed in Delta's articles.  Though it ends up making my coins ... about the size of an American quarter. :D

Yet, I can use this larger silver coin as an easy conversion for the historical prices.  I can read the silver pennies (d) as copper pennies, shillings (s) as x3 as silver stars, and pounds (L) as x6 gold.  (Remembering to inflate clothes, weapons, armor, and other crafted goods to fit my setting.)

The basic issues are twofold:

- If you want several different coins of different metals, with any kind of historical nod to accuracy, you have to sacrifice coin size, or types of coins, or ease of conversion.  You can't have all three.
- Multiple types of coins of the same metal can really confuse some players.  So you have to decide if the extra confusion is worth the fidelity. 

Naturally, some people are really going to thrive on coin names and the historical sizes.  I found that having a bigger coin reinforced decisions about how many to haul out of a dungeon.  Note that this is almost entirely psychological, since I've based most of my prices as if their was a classic silver penny standard, with the weights of the metal determining how it fits.  Still, it's convenient for me to have relatively few coins per unit of encumbrance.  I think the AD&D rate of 10 per pound was more about the same thinking, and the relatively large size of the coins followed from that.

Finally, as another nod to history, you can use the "egg" as a very small unit.  It will typically be a dozen or half dozen eggs to whatever your smallest coin is.  I've got 1 bronze farthing buying 6 eggs, for example.  Point being, this is a unit of barter at the low end of the scale, that players will typically only use when destitute.  It's an easy way to give some flavor to the exchanges without burdening your system with a coin too small to have much meaning.  May be fun to have a peasant sweeten a deal by throwing in an egg or two. :D
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 19, 2023, 02:55:22 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
You may find this interesting:  Money Results (https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html), especially the links in that article to his earlier articles on the subject.

D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

I went with a hybrid system, based on the silver standard, but using the bottom end of the silver/gold exchange rate.  That let me use "copper pennies" as a tiny bit of silver in a copper/silver alloy as 1/5th of a larger silver coin, and then use a bronze/copper allow as a "bronze farthing" at 1/4 of the copper penny.  That gives 20 of the farthings at 1 "silver star," with some of the conveniences in player attitude discussed in Delta's articles.  Though it ends up making my coins ... about the size of an American quarter. :D

Yet, I can use this larger silver coin as an easy conversion for the historical prices.  I can read the silver pennies (d) as copper pennies, shillings (s) as x3 as silver stars, and pounds (L) as x6 gold.  (Remembering to inflate clothes, weapons, armor, and other crafted goods to fit my setting.)

The basic issues are twofold:

- If you want several different coins of different metals, with any kind of historical nod to accuracy, you have to sacrifice coin size, or types of coins, or ease of conversion.  You can't have all three.
- Multiple types of coins of the same metal can really confuse some players.  So you have to decide if the extra confusion is worth the fidelity. 

Naturally, some people are really going to thrive on coin names and the historical sizes.  I found that having a bigger coin reinforced decisions about how many to haul out of a dungeon.  Note that this is almost entirely psychological, since I've based most of my prices as if their was a classic silver penny standard, with the weights of the metal determining how it fits.  Still, it's convenient for me to have relatively few coins per unit of encumbrance.  I think the AD&D rate of 10 per pound was more about the same thinking, and the relatively large size of the coins followed from that.

Finally, as another nod to history, you can use the "egg" as a very small unit.  It will typically be a dozen or half dozen eggs to whatever your smallest coin is.  I've got 1 bronze farthing buying 6 eggs, for example.  Point being, this is a unit of barter at the low end of the scale, that players will typically only use when destitute.  It's an easy way to give some flavor to the exchanges without burdening your system with a coin too small to have much meaning.  May be fun to have a peasant sweeten a deal by throwing in an egg or two. :D

Yeah, I had read through his posts as I was going down the road  ;D.  I think there is still some issues with prices in D&D when you look at costs based on the amount of metal.

Forgot that D&D went back to the D&D name after AD&D (haven't played in decades  ;D).

Gygax even changed up currency in his Gord the Rogue book series to the below.  Think he understood that the D&D/AD&D numbers were off.


                  Iron Drab  Br Bit Brn Zee  Cu Com  Ag Noble El Lucky Gold Orb Platinum Plate
Iron Drab         1          1/5    1/50     1/250   1/1000   1/5000   1/50000  1/55000
Brass Bit         5          1      1/10     1/50    1/200    1/1000   1/10000  1/11000
Bronze Zee        50         10     1        1/5     1/20     1/100    1/1000   1/1100
Copper Common     250        50     5        1       1/4      1/20     1/200    1/220
Silver Noble      1000       200    20       4       1        1/5      1/50     1/55
Electrum Lucky    5000       1000   100      20      5        1        1/10     1/11
Gold Orb          50000      10000  1000     200     50       10       1        10/11
Platinum Plate    55000      11000  1100     220     55       11       11/10    1
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Eric Diaz on February 19, 2023, 07:30:18 PM
Here is my short equipment list. I vaguely remember doing tons of research to reach vaguely realistic prices, while keeping things very simple... but I'd love to know if something seems completely off.

I think they are simpler and more sensible than most OSR lists (e.g., in B/X plate armor twelve times as much as... garlic), but I can't be sure.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/simple-and-realistic-equipment-list.html
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on February 19, 2023, 07:30:18 PM
I think they are simpler and more sensible than most OSR lists (e.g., in B/X plate armor twelve times as much as... garlic), but I can't be sure.

Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.

Economies in games have always been the stupiest part, most of them making absolutely no sense except as a form of balancing mechanics. The only reason for garlic to be 5gp is so that it would be relatively pricey to buy a lot of it before raiding the vampire's lair (or... you know, just don't give your vampires a weakness to garlic???).

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

As Steven pointed out, at some point you just need to just accept certain inconsistancies. Want to use coins as a form of "weight management?" Well then you can't have realistic size-to-value ratios. Sometimes it's better to just say, "don't think about it, it'll be fine." Then go kill some monsters.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Kyle Aaron on February 19, 2023, 09:54:28 PM
Here's a very extensive price list from Harn, which has a silver standard and tries to approximate late dark ages or early medieval reality.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.  So that 50 gp gem is now 50 silver.  This means that gold is worth a lot, but finding a big bag of silver coins is worth something.  Finding gems is still helpful, even if they aren't worth all that much "gold".

Especially if you inflate some of the prices, as I mentioned earlier as I'm doing with some crafted goods.  I've got the Gambeson at 45 silver in my system, which is roughly 15 shillings in historical terms.  Meanwhile, I have a chain hauberk all the way up to 300 silver and plate mail (when you can even find it) at 600.  Not exactly historical, but closer than some games, or at least proportionate, accounting for dark age technology with magic picking up the slack.  That is, all plate mail is magical in the sense that it takes magic to produce it, thus the price.   The upshot is that unless a character's background gives them access, no one can afford the heavier armor at the start, and probably can't for some time.  Like B/X or AD&D only more so. 

You can approximate the feel of an economy with a few touches sometimes that might be too much if you tried to go those last few steps towards historical accuracy. 
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 19, 2023, 10:55:38 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 10:49:41 AM
D&D had gone to 50 coins per pound by 3E.  Don't know if it happened at any time in 2E, but I doubt it.

Looking again at the 2E PHB, on page 66 the coin types are introduced, as well as their exchange rates, but nothing in the whole chapter ("Chapter 6: Money and Equipment") mentions anything about the encumbrance of coins themselves. Chapter 10 ("Treasure") also makes no mention of the weight of coins. In either case, they imply that the DM could invent all kinds of different coins hailing from different polities, each with their own weight. That is no help, though.

However, on the "Money and Equipment" chapter of the DMG, on page 33, we have an oblique reference, when the author is explaining the situation of a mercenary captain in Aquitaine who had received coins from all sorts of places in Europe and Northern Africa, including here England:

Quote from: 2E_DMGThe English coins included the rarely seen pound, equal perhaps to one gp. More common were silver shillings, officially figured at 20 to a pound (or ½ a sp). ...

Here we see that if shillings are figured at 20 to a pound and thus worth ½ sp, then one sp is worth ⅒ of a pound, at least in 1989 when the 2E DMG was written. 10 to a pound is absolutely massive; I know of only one coin which surpasses this weight, the Portuguese dobrão which was minted in Vila Rica in Minas Gerais between 1724 and 1727 and weighed 53.8 grams (¹⅝ of a Portuguese ounce, or 8 3/7 to an avoirdupois pound).
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Effete on February 20, 2023, 06:37:07 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM

I've tried in the past to create a more realistic coin economy in a fantasy game, and it just ended up fundamentally changing certain expectations. Players would have needed to get used to earning far less than they were used to in other games. 1000 gp may be a fair reward for a 1st-lvl party to split before, but with a "realistic" economy that's game-breaking.

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.

Oh, certainly! This is what I meant by players needing to get used to the idea they will be be "earning less." Many are used to seeing rewards in gold pieces, so it requires a bit of re-training the brain to then view silver as your base currency.

The dumb part is that DnD already tries to claim it has a silver-based economy. The average weekly wage for a commoner is between 5-10 sp, varying by edition. This would mean that that 10,000 gp magic item the PC wants is the veritable equivalent of buying an entire palace and all the furnishings to go with it. This makes even less sense in later versions, where magic is nearly ubiquitous (7 out of 10 classes get access to magic). In an actual economy, the laws of supply and demand should drive magic item prices down. But they are artificially high for the sake of game balance. I'm not arguing that's a bad thing. On the contrary, the price of goods SHOULD be a balancing factor if your game rewards players with currency. What I'm saying is DnD (and nearly every game that followed it) have generally done a poor job of modeling that relationship.

(Tangent - skip if you want. This issue still exists in games that are set in more "modern" times. Or even futuristic ones. Cyperpunk Red uses a "Lifestyle" mechanic where players pay a monthy fee to cover all basic living expenses, like food, travel, etc. The lowest tier costs 100eb and assumes the player gets about two measly meals a day. However, one meal can also be purchased for 10eb. Now, quick math will tell you this is 10 meals a month before you hit that 100eb Lifestyle fee (or only 5 days of meals). It doesn't make any g'damn sense. But the entire point of the game offering individual meals for sale is for those times they are going to places where food is not readily available from a Vendit machine. The cost just represents the character preparing to venture away from the comforts of the city. But the book does a poor job explaining this, and I see players fretting over buying meals and other minor things when they should just be focused on the bigger picture.)

QuoteEspecially if you inflate some of the prices, as I mentioned earlier as I'm doing with some crafted goods.  I've got the Gambeson at 45 silver in my system, which is roughly 15 shillings in historical terms.  Meanwhile, I have a chain hauberk all the way up to 300 silver and plate mail (when you can even find it) at 600.  Not exactly historical, but closer than some games, or at least proportionate, accounting for dark age technology with magic picking up the slack.  That is, all plate mail is magical in the sense that it takes magic to produce it, thus the price.   The upshot is that unless a character's background gives them access, no one can afford the heavier armor at the start, and probably can't for some time.  Like B/X or AD&D only more so.

Sounds like you are balancing these price changes through the mechanic of backgrounds. That seems to be a much more elegant way to handle it, assuming each background offers it's own niche or mechanical advantage.

QuoteYou can approximate the feel of an economy with a few touches sometimes that might be too much if you tried to go those last few steps towards historical accuracy.

Yeah, trying to go TOO realistic, I think, is futile. In the end, it is just a game, and some balance between the characters and the mechanics should be expected. Reality isn't "fair", and if you attempt to model it into your game, your game will not be fair.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM
This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 20, 2023, 09:02:35 AM
Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM
This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.

Language issues would be the biggest thing as you would have to know the local language written at the time (Middle English is fairly close to Modern English, so it's not too big of a leap).

One thing that I've found in my research that might help you, is that even in England, they went by weight of coin versus the actual coins.  That way shaving of coins didn't have much of an effect.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 20, 2023, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 08:38:03 AM
This thread is pretty cool. I saw a couple sources listed for England, but does anyone have handy references/sources for historical prices from other parts of the world like the Ottoman Empire or Korea. Researching stuff for my own Chinese-esque setting has been a pain in the ass since currency was all over the place depending on the dynasty and a bunch of the records showed wages that were calculated in terms of "dan" (Chinese weight unit) with little to no mention of coinage or other currency.

This is a problem in Europe, too, since lack of political centralisation means that any warlord who manage to style himself a king could mint his own coins with whatever name he preferred. Generally, you're better off measuring things in units of weight of silver, whether the "dan" you mention or the "liang" that is generally used in Xianxia novels. This way you can ignore the problem of coins being introduced, debased and then abandoned as the years went on.

Regarding the problem of silver inflation, it wasn't until the Great Discoveries era when American silver started flooding Europe and, through the commerce with the Ming, China. Before then the silver supply was basically constant, which was a problem since the economy tended to grow; the Old World was facing the beginnings of a silver crisis due to deflation!
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 20, 2023, 05:41:55 PM
More items I pulled out today.



Item                                                      Year      Pound      Shilling      Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)      Gold(g)      DnD sp      DnD gp
Ship                                                      1354      20                                  400.00            4,800.00       5,328.000      464.111      117.462     10.232
Ship                                                      1354      10                                  200.00            2,400.00       2,664.000      232.056      58.731      5.116
Boat                                                      1354                 20                       20.00             240.00         266.400        23.206       5.873       0.512
Boat                                                      1354      4                                   80.00             960.00         1,065.600      92.822       23.492      2.046
Boat                                                      1354                 66            8          66.67             800.00         888.000        77.352       19.577      1.705
600 Oak boards (Wainscot) from Estland                    1354      4                                   0.13              1.60           1.776          0.155        0.039       0.003
4 ½ Lasts and 4 Ox-Hides (1 Last = 200 hides)             1354      83         4             8          1.84              22.10          24.528         2.137        0.541       0.047
19 Bales of Alum                                          1354      13                                  13.68             164.21         182.274        15.877       4.018       0.350
30 Bales of Madder (Plant for dyeing)                     1354      28         6             8          18.89             226.67         251.600        21.916       5.547       0.483
4 Bundles (meise) of Copper                               1354      7          15                       38.75             465.00         516.150        44.961       11.379      0.991
Cask 15 Cloths of divers colors of the fabric of Curtrik  1354      25                                  33.33             400.00         444.000        38.676       9.789       0.853
100 Oak boards (Wainscot) from Estland – 1 mark           1354                               160        0.13              1.60           1.776          0.155        0.039       0.003
6 barrels of 'wodaxes' (Potash)                           1354                 30                       5.00              60.00          66.600         5.801        1.468       0.128
2 Tuns Spanish wine                                       1354      8                                   80.00             960.00         1,065.600      92.822       23.492      2.046
120 Quarters of Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)             1354      30                                  5.00              60.00          66.600         5.801        1.468       0.128
200 stones of woad (indigo dye)                           1354      9          13            4          0.97              11.60          12.876         1.122        0.284       0.025
6 Tuns of wine from Harflete                              1354      6                                   20.00             240.00         266.400        23.206       5.873       0.512
6 Tuns of wine from Depe                                  1354      8                                   26.67             320.00         355.200        30.941       7.831       0.682
Boat                                                      1354                 20                       20.00             240.00         266.400        23.206       5.873       0.512
Little boat                                               1354                 60                       60.00             720.00         799.200        69.617       17.619      1.535
Gallon of wine sold in Taverns (was 6 pence)              1354                               8          0.67              8.00           8.880          0.774        0.196       0.017
Ship                                                      1354      10         13            4          213.33            2,560.00       2,841.600      247.526      62.647      5.457
Ship – 10 marks                                           1354                               1600       133.33            1,600.00       1,776.000      154.704      39.154      3.411
Ship                                                      1354      10                                  200.00            2,400.00       2,664.000      232.056      58.731      5.116
Ship                                                      1354      55                                  1,100.00          13,200.00      14,652.000     1,276.307    323.021     28.138
Ship                                                      1354      20                                  400.00            4,800.00       5,328.000      464.111      117.462     10.232
6 sacks of wool                                           1354      23         6             8          77.78             933.33         1,036.000      90.244       22.840      1.990
33 sarplars of wool                                       1354      52         12            4          31.89             382.67         424.760        37.000       9.364       0.816
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 11:40:40 PM
I did a bit more digging nd found some interesting tables in a book called The Chinese Market Economy 1000-1500. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. I can start a different one if LordBP wants.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 21, 2023, 05:47:29 AM
Quote from: Hzilong on February 20, 2023, 11:40:40 PM
I did a bit more digging nd found some interesting tables in a book called The Chinese Market Economy 1000-1500. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. I can start a different one if LordBP wants.

This one is fine.  Would be interesting to see costs in silver and gold at the same time period in different regions.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: RPGPundit on February 21, 2023, 07:39:01 AM
The price list in Lion & Dragon attempts to be as authentic as possible, though this requires making a number of calculated guesses and gross estimations.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Effete on February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/3/951S/4687053?login=false)
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: Effete on February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/3/951S/4687053?login=false)

Indeed, and considering the Romans were very fond of garlic (they even had a proverb ubi allium, ibi Roma: "Where there is (the scent of) garlic, there is Rome"), I find it extremely unlikely that you wouldn't find garlic in Roman Britain (assuming that Italy is not a typical European setting), and thence, Britain through the Middle Ages.

I mean, it is true that even today, garlic is a lot more expensive (5×, perhaps?) than onions, which are a close cousin. But fifty days' worth of an unskilled labourer's salary for a single bulb is, perhaps, a bit much.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: mAcular Chaotic on February 21, 2023, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 21, 2023, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: Effete on February 21, 2023, 09:43:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

Ehhh... given that DnD is largely anachronistic and not historically accurate in the least, I'd be willing to concede this point in the broader context. But garlic has been very well documented in Greece since at least the 11th century BC, and in Rome since the 1st century AD. While true that the earliest records of it appearing in Europe date to 7th century, I find it difficult to believe that it took over 600 years to make it's way up from Rome, especially considering how important the plant was in medicinal applications. The migratory period of Europe was well known for having poor record-keeping, so it would make a lot of sense that no records appear until things started settling down.

Regardless, even if we accept that garlic only came to Europe in the 7th century, DnD features plate armor, which wasn't in use until at least the 12th-13th century. That is 500-600 years since garlic was introduced to the region, and considering how robust the plant is, it would not need to be imported.

Even of we ignore all of this (admittedly speculative) evidence, it still doesn't explain why the authors of core DnD rulesets included garlic as the only vegetable on the entire gear list. Why not saffron or cinnamon or other exotic, non-native herbs/spices? It's highly suggestive the reason was, in fact, as a tool against vampires. Same reason "mallet and stakes" and "wolfsbane" appear on the list.

SOURCE (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/3/951S/4687053?login=false)

Indeed, and considering the Romans were very fond of garlic (they even had a proverb ubi allium, ibi Roma: "Where there is (the scent of) garlic, there is Rome"), I find it extremely unlikely that you wouldn't find garlic in Roman Britain (assuming that Italy is not a typical European setting), and thence, Britain through the Middle Ages.

I mean, it is true that even today, garlic is a lot more expensive (5×, perhaps?) than onions, which are a close cousin. But fifty days' worth of an unskilled labourer's salary for a single bulb is, perhaps, a bit much.
I always imagined these as "adventurer's prices." You know, some out of towners with a lot of money show up, and are in dire need of some garlic to fight off a vampire -- of course the vendor is going to upsell them.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 21, 2023, 09:30:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 21, 2023, 07:39:01 AM
The price list in Lion & Dragon attempts to be as authentic as possible, though this requires making a number of calculated guesses and gross estimations.

What time frame is the Lion & Dragon based on?
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 22, 2023, 10:11:56 AM
Quote from: LordBP on February 21, 2023, 09:30:25 PM
What time frame is the Lion & Dragon based on?

The period of the War of the Roses, which is the second half of the 15th Century.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: tenbones on February 22, 2023, 10:19:55 AM
Big thumbs up on this thread. LOVE IT.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: estar on February 22, 2023, 03:52:54 PM
I have shared the following resources at various times.

Fantasy Demographics
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf

Majestic Wilderlands Price List for Swords & Wizardry
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Equipment%20Rev%202.pdf

MW Price List Full For GURPS
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MajesticWilderlandsPrice%20List.pdf

Herbs and Potions
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Herbs%20and%20Potions%20Rev_02.pdf

Magic Item Creation Costs consistent with the above
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf

Merchant Adventures
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Merchant%20Adventures%20Rev%2004.pdf

Paris Tax Roll 1292 (Excel)
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Tax%20roll%20Paris%201292%20Rev%202.xls

S. John Ross Medieval Demographics Made Easy
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Medieval%20Demographics%20Made%20Easy.pdf
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 22, 2023, 08:33:00 PM
Quote from: estar on February 22, 2023, 03:52:54 PM
I have shared the following resources at various times.

(snip!)

I have seen some of those resources before, but they are really good nonetheless. Thanks for sharing them!  ;D
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
Boat                                                                                    1355                 60                    60.00             720.00         799.200     69.617
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
100 fishes of congre (Eels)                                                             1355                 30                    0.30              3.60           3.996       0.348
1,000 Cloves                                                                            1355                 20                    0.02              0.24           0.266       0.023
80 ells of canvas (1 ell = 45 inches = 100 yards)                                       1355                 40                    0.50              6.00           6.660       0.580
Boat                                                                                    1355                 36                    36.00             432.00         479.520     41.770
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885
2 sarplars of wool (1 sarplar = 80 tod = 2240 lbs)                                      1356                 100                   50.00             600.00         666.000     58.014
2 mattresses for a bed                                                                  1356                 11                    5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
7 coverlets of Flanders                                                                 1356                 10         6          1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
4 pigges wolles (blanket made of fine hairs of pigs)                                    1356                            20         0.42              5.00           5.550       0.483
2 reem and 5 quires of paper (1 reem = 500 sheets, 1 quire = 25 sheets, 1,125 sheets)   1356                 5          8          0.01              0.06           0.067       0.006
Broken silver                                                                           1356                            4          0.33              4.00           4.440       0.387
1 ridell (might be used to cleanse rye grain)                                           1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and perles and furred with 'demy Pure'   1356                 36         8          36.67             440.00         488.400     42.544
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and lined with cloth of 'murre'          1356                 2          6          2.50              30.00          33.300      2.901
1 pair of white shoes                                                                   1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 coverlet with tester of canvas spotted                                                1356                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 mail of white hide                                                                    1356                 2                     2.00              24.00          26.640      2.321
1 brown horse                                                                           1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
1 saddle with bridle                                                                    1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on February 23, 2023, 05:45:29 PM
Quote from: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885


Curiouser and curiouser...  ???
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 23, 2023, 05:45:29 PM
Quote from: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885


Well I screwed that one up by not dividing by the number of pipes.   

Going to have to fix a lot of stuff and repost it all once I get through the rest of the 400 pages for this time period.

I would say the difference in cost could be quality of wine as they vary.
Curiouser and curiouser...  ???
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Hzilong on February 23, 2023, 07:40:31 PM
No no. Clearly one is just red wine where the other is burgundy that is exactly the same but gets to be called something fancy because French laws.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Effete on February 23, 2023, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 23, 2023, 05:45:29 PM
Quote from: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885


Curiouser and curiouser...  ???

Would make sense if they were different vintage.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Rhymer88 on February 24, 2023, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
Boat                                                                                    1355                 60                    60.00             720.00         799.200     69.617
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
100 fishes of congre (Eels)                                                             1355                 30                    0.30              3.60           3.996       0.348
1,000 Cloves                                                                            1355                 20                    0.02              0.24           0.266       0.023
80 ells of canvas (1 ell = 45 inches = 100 yards)                                       1355                 40                    0.50              6.00           6.660       0.580
Boat                                                                                    1355                 36                    36.00             432.00         479.520     41.770
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885
2 sarplars of wool (1 sarplar = 80 tod = 2240 lbs)                                      1356                 100                   50.00             600.00         666.000     58.014
2 mattresses for a bed                                                                  1356                 11                    5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
7 coverlets of Flanders                                                                 1356                 10         6          1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
4 pigges wolles (blanket made of fine hairs of pigs)                                    1356                            20         0.42              5.00           5.550       0.483
2 reem and 5 quires of paper (1 reem = 500 sheets, 1 quire = 25 sheets, 1,125 sheets)   1356                 5          8          0.01              0.06           0.067       0.006
Broken silver                                                                           1356                            4          0.33              4.00           4.440       0.387
1 ridell (might be used to cleanse rye grain)                                           1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and perles and furred with 'demy Pure'   1356                 36         8          36.67             440.00         488.400     42.544
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and lined with cloth of 'murre'          1356                 2          6          2.50              30.00          33.300      2.901
1 pair of white shoes                                                                   1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 coverlet with tester of canvas spotted                                                1356                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 mail of white hide                                                                    1356                 2                     2.00              24.00          26.640      2.321
1 brown horse                                                                           1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
1 saddle with bridle                                                                    1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801


How much did an unskilled laborer earn on average per day? In 15th century Germany it was around 10-12 pfennigs (there were 252 pfennigs in a gulden). What I find interesting is that eggs could cost up to half a pfennig and were thus quite expensive. 
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 24, 2023, 10:55:53 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 24, 2023, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: LordBP on February 23, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Some more items


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
Boat                                                                                    1355                 60                    60.00             720.00         799.200     69.617
5 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
100 fishes of congre (Eels)                                                             1355                 30                    0.30              3.60           3.996       0.348
1,000 Cloves                                                                            1355                 20                    0.02              0.24           0.266       0.023
80 ells of canvas (1 ell = 45 inches = 100 yards)                                       1355                 40                    0.50              6.00           6.660       0.580
Boat                                                                                    1355                 36                    36.00             432.00         479.520     41.770
8 Pipes of French Wine (1 Pipe = ½ Tun = 128 Wine Gallons)                              1355                 18                    18.00             216.00         239.760     20.885
2 sarplars of wool (1 sarplar = 80 tod = 2240 lbs)                                      1356                 100                   50.00             600.00         666.000     58.014
2 mattresses for a bed                                                                  1356                 11                    5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
7 coverlets of Flanders                                                                 1356                 10         6          1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
4 pigges wolles (blanket made of fine hairs of pigs)                                    1356                            20         0.42              5.00           5.550       0.483
2 reem and 5 quires of paper (1 reem = 500 sheets, 1 quire = 25 sheets, 1,125 sheets)   1356                 5          8          0.01              0.06           0.067       0.006
Broken silver                                                                           1356                            4          0.33              4.00           4.440       0.387
1 ridell (might be used to cleanse rye grain)                                           1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and perles and furred with 'demy Pure'   1356                 36         8          36.67             440.00         488.400     42.544
1 hood of scarlet for a woman worked with gold and lined with cloth of 'murre'          1356                 2          6          2.50              30.00          33.300      2.901
1 pair of white shoes                                                                   1356                            18         1.50              18.00          19.980      1.740
1 coverlet with tester of canvas spotted                                                1356                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 mail of white hide                                                                    1356                 2                     2.00              24.00          26.640      2.321
1 brown horse                                                                           1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
1 saddle with bridle                                                                    1356                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801


How much did an unskilled laborer earn on average per day? In 15th century Germany it was around 10-12 pfennigs (there were 252 pfennigs in a gulden). What I find interesting is that eggs could cost up to half a pfennig and were thus quite expensive.

So, the stuff I'm looking at doesn't really have common laborer prices (it does have a lot of higher stuff related to the crown, but I haven't put any of that in my list as it seems to be a lot of politics).

The below is from the Medieval Price webpage.

                                  WAGES
Profession                      Wage        Date        Source  Page
Mercenaries:
  knight banneret               4s/day      1316        [4]     78
  knight                        2s/day       "           "       "
  man-at-arms or squire         1s/day       "           "       "
Regular Army
  Esquires, constables, and
    centenars                   1s/day      1346        [4]     79
  Mounted archers, armored
    infantry, hobilars,
    vintenars                   6d/day       "           "       "
  Welsh vintenars               4d/day       "           "       "
  Archers                       3d/day       "           "       "
  Welsh infantry                2d/day       "           "       "
  Captain                       8s/day      late 16 cen [4]     181
  Lieutenant                    4s/day        "          "       "
  Ensign                        2s/day        "          "       "
  Drummer or trumpeter          20d/day       "          "       "
  cavalryman                    18d/day       "          "       "
  infantry                      8d/day        "          "       "
Laborer                         L2/year max c1300       [3]     29
Crown revenues (at peace)       L30 000     c1300        "       "
Barons per year                 L200-500+   c1300        "       "
Earls  per year                 L400-L11000 c1300        "       "
Sergeant at Law (top lawyer)    L300/year   1455         "      47
Chief armorer                   26s 8d/month 1544       [5]     182
Other armorers in same shop     24s/month   1544         "       "
  except "Old Martyn" who made  38s 10d/month 1544       "       "
Apprentices in same shop        6d/day      1544         "       "
Master mason                    4d/day      1351        [2]     24
Master carpenter                3d/day       "           "       "
Carpenters' Guild stipend to
  a sick member                 14d/week    1333        [2]     156
Weavers                         5d/day, no  1407        [2]     146
                                food
Chantry priest per year         L4 13s 4d   1379        [2]     24
Squires per annum               13s 4d-L1   14 cen      [1]     116-117
Carters, porters, falconers     5s-8s 8d    14 cen      [1]     116-117
  grooms, messengers            per year
Kitchen servants                2s-4s/year  14 cen      [1]     116-117
Boys and pages                  1s-6s/year  14 cen      [1]     116-117
Wardens of London Bridges       L10/year    1382        [2]     128


Decade        Thatcher          Thatcher's mate
1261-70       2                 -
1271-80       2.5               1
1281-90       2.25              1
1291-1300     2.5               1
1301-10       2.5               1
1311-20       3                 1.25
1321-30       3                 1
1331-40       3                 1.25
1341-50       3                 1.25
1351-60       3.5               2
1361-70       3.5               2
1371-80       4.25              2.5
1381-90       4                 2.25
1391-1400     4.25              2.75
1401-10       4.5               3
1411-20       4.75              3
1421-30       4.5               3
1431-40       4.5               3.25
1441-50       5.25              4
1451-60       5.5               3.25
1461-70       4.75              3.75
1471-80       5.25              3.75
1481-90       6                 3.75
1491-1500     5.5               3.5
1501-10       5.75              4
1511-20       5.25              4
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: estar on February 24, 2023, 11:27:02 AM
A rule of thumb is that a medieval laborer earns 1d a day and works 24 days out of 30 in a month.
To figure out how that works in a different currency remember that 1d = 1/240th of a pound of silver. Find the metal content and weight of the other currency and that will tell you, roughly, the factor to use.


Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 24, 2023, 01:09:12 PM
Quote from: estar on February 24, 2023, 11:27:02 AM
A rule of thumb is that a medieval laborer earns 1d a day and works 24 days out of 30 in a month.
To figure out how that works in a different currency remember that 1d = 1/240th of a pound of silver. Find the metal content and weight of the other currency and that will tell you, roughly, the factor to use.
This is for the above rates for Thatcher.


Decade     Thatcher     Thatcher's mate     g of Silver
1261-70    2            -                   2.698
1271-80    2.5          1                   3.3725
1281-90    2.25         1                   3.03525
1291-1300  2.5          1                   3.3725
1301-10    2.5          1                   3.3725
1311-20    3            1.25                4.047
1321-30    3            1                   4.047
1331-40    3            1.25                4.047
1341-50    3            1.25                3.642
1351-60    3.5          2                   3.885
1361-70    3.5          2                   3.885
1371-80    4.25         2.5                 4.7175
1381-90    4            2.25                4.44
1391-1400  4.25         2.75                4.7175
1401-10    4.5          3                   4.995
1411-20    4.75         3                   4.27025
1421-30    4.5          3                   4.0455
1431-40    4.5          3.25                4.0455
1441-50    5.25         4                   4.71975
1451-60    5.5          3.25                4.9445
1461-70    4.75         3.75                4.27025
1471-80    5.25         3.75                3.77475
1481-90    6            3.75                4.314
1491-1500  5.5          3.5                 3.9545
1501-10    5.75         4                   4.13425
1511-20    5.25         4                   3.77475


Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Garlic was NOT hard to get in most parts of Europe. It's not a rare spice from the silk road.

And "not native to European settings"?! FFS, "Ubi allium, ibi Roma", my dude! It was literally the sacred vegetable of Mars, one of the most popular Roman gods. In England, the oldest English Language recipe book in the world (from the time of Richard II) made it clear that garlic was both an ingredient of common use for food and as medicine.


Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: APN on February 25, 2023, 11:17:34 AM
Just skimming through a book that arrived today and the cost of some items are listed in cows. That was the early middle ages as far as I can tell but war was clearly for rich people to wage whilst the rank and file would make do with a pointy stick or pitchfork or whatever.

(https://i.postimg.cc/859FxxVZ/1677341325492.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VvtSw4fm/1677341387910.jpg)

Book is 'Medieval Warfare' by H.W. Koch
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 25, 2023, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: APN on February 25, 2023, 11:17:34 AM
Just skimming through a book that arrived today and the cost of some items are listed in cows. That was the early middle ages as far as I can tell but war was clearly for rich people to wage whilst the rank and file would make do with a pointy stick or pitchfork or whatever.
Book is 'Medieval Warfare' by H.W. Koch

The early and high middle ages would still have high prices on steel products due to small foundries and water driven trip hammers not coming into heavy use until the early to mid 1300s.  Once the foundries get much larger and the trip hammers come into use, you can see the drop of the armor prices.

For example.
In 1150, a suit of mail would cost around 1,000 pence or 1,618.8 grams of silver.
In 1374, a knight's armor would cost around 3,920 pence or 4,351.2 grams of silver.
In 1441, ready made Milanese armor would cost around 2,000 pence or 1,798 grams of silver.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on February 25, 2023, 04:09:04 PM
Well I finally made it through the first book (only 26 more to go).  I may reformat items and repost it later, but here are the last additions.  It also included daily wages of certain laborers.


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Gentil Falcon (female falcon)                                                         1358                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Gentil Tiercel (trained male falcon)                                                  1358                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 Estor                                                                                 1358                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Tiercel Estor – ½ mark                                                                1358                            80         6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
1 Lanner – ½ mark (type of falcon)                                                      1358                            80         6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
Ship                                                                                    1359      200                              4,000.00          48,000.00      53,280.000  4,641.115
1 Old and weak Stumper Horse (Packhorse)                                                1360                 100                   100.00            1,200.00       1,332.000   116.028
1 Strong Stumper Horse (Packhorse) – 10 marks                                           1360                            1600       133.33            1,600.00       1,776.000   154.704
1 Bed of great assize of black worstede (high quality wool yarn)                        1359                 30                    30.00             360.00         399.600     34.808
10 ells of black cloth (1 ell = 45 inches = 12.5 yards)                                 1359                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
1 fur of black buget                                                                    1359                 4                     4.00              48.00          53.280      4.641



Wages are all from 1359

King's Farrier – 3d per day. 10s once per year for robes/shoes
King's Other keepers of horses – 2d per day. 10s once per year for robes/shoes
King's Falconer – 3.25d per day
King's Horse Groomer – 2d per day
Bannerets - 4s per day
Knights - 2s per day
Squires - 12d per day
Archer – Horse - 6d per day
Archer – Foot - 3d per day
Warders (guard?) - 6d per day

Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Lurkndog on February 25, 2023, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.  So that 50 gp gem is now 50 silver.  This means that gold is worth a lot, but finding a big bag of silver coins is worth something.  Finding gems is still helpful, even if they aren't worth all that much "gold".


I was under the impression that gem prices in D&D were designed to provide a more portable form of higher wealth. For when the party hits the "going to build a castle" level of wealth. A chest full of gems is a way to avoid a state where moving your money requires feats of engineering.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Steven Mitchell on February 25, 2023, 08:57:56 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog on February 25, 2023, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver.  So that 50 gp gem is now 50 silver.  This means that gold is worth a lot, but finding a big bag of silver coins is worth something.  Finding gems is still helpful, even if they aren't worth all that much "gold".


I was under the impression that gem prices in D&D were designed to provide a more portable form of higher wealth. For when the party hits the "going to build a castle" level of wealth. A chest full of gems is a way to avoid a state where moving your money requires feats of engineering.

They are--in an inflated economy because of a "Boom Town" thing where previous adventurers have already brought in hoards of coins and gems, thus making gold the basis of the economy.  If you want to have a more restrained economy, all of that has to be addressed.  It's all of a piece.

That's why WotC versions make money increasingly irrelevant.  They've kept some of the earlier D&D conceits, but not the pieces that make it all work together, and then tried to stave off the consequences of those decisions with money sinks (e.g. magic item costs) divorced from the setting. 

Point being, there's nothing wrong with having great hoards of coins and gems.  If you do that in the AD&D style, it will work.  OTOH, if you don't want to have great hoards of coins and gems, then you can't just decide to not have them and leave everything else unchanged.  In a sense, if you take the AD&D assumptions, you don't need to do much of anything about adventurers dropping into the village with sacks of gold.  The AD&D prices already take that into account.

If you want the more restrained version, then paying for a castle is difficult.  That's part of the point, which is why most "castles" will be minor keeps, with the bigger castles reflecting great wealth over decades or even centuries.  Or a concerted effort by someone with a lot of wealth and connections who can afford plenty of guards for the pay train of silver used to pay the construction workers. 
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 01, 2023, 07:17:50 PM
Finished another book.


Item                                                                                    Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Falcon Gentil (female falcon)                                                         1360                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Tiercel Gentil (trained male falcon)                                                  1360                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 Goshawk (Lestor)                                                                      1360                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Tiercel Goshawk (Estor) – ½ mark                                                      1360                            80         6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
1 Lanner – ½ mark (type of falcon)                                                      1360                            80         6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                                                           1360                 6                     6.00              72.00          79.920      6.962
Malt – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                                                            1360                 5                     5.00              60.00          66.600      5.801
Oats – 1 quarter (8 Bushels)                                                            1360                 2          6          2.50              30.00          33.300      2.901
Gallon of wine sold in Taverns – Gloucester                                             1360                 6                     0.50              6.00           6.660       0.580
Cow                                                                                     1360                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
3 Beds                                                                                  1362                 30                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
2 Swans                                                                                 1362                 6          8          3.33              40.00          44.400      3.868
7 Sacks of clean wool (1 sack = 2 stone = 28 lbs)                                       1363                 56         4          56.33             676.00         750.360     65.362
3 Stone of wool (1 stone = 14 lbs)                                                      1363                 2          2          2.17              26.00          28.860      2.514
2 Sacks of refuse wool (1 sack = 2 stone = 28 lbs)                                      1363                 30         4          30.33             364.00         404.040     35.195
3 Stone of refuse wool (1 stone = 14 lbs)                                               1363                 14                    14.00             168.00         186.480     16.244
40 Weak woolfells (skin from which the wool has not been sheared or pulled)             1363                 6          8          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Garlic was NOT hard to get in most parts of Europe. It's not a rare spice from the silk road.

And "not native to European settings"?! FFS, "Ubi allium, ibi Roma", my dude! It was literally the sacred vegetable of Mars, one of the most popular Roman gods. In England, the oldest English Language recipe book in the world (from the time of Richard II) made it clear that garlic was both an ingredient of common use for food and as medicine.
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:332110-2). But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:527795-1).
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:332110-2). But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:527795-1).
True. The point, however, still stands. Those of us who live in a modern society sometimes miss how much things are changed by concepts like food preservation and mass transportation of goods. Hence why certain things are going to cost more if they're not native to an area or region.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 12, 2023, 06:06:59 PM
Finished the third book.


Item                                                        Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Pair of gilded spurs                                      1364                 2                     2.00              24.00          26.640      2.321
2 Pockets of wool                                           1364                 26         8          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
99 Woolfells                                                1364                 16         6          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
1 Load of brushwood                                         1364                 16                    16.00             192.00         213.120     18.564
2 Oxen                                                      1364                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Falcon Gentil (female falcon)                             1365                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Tiercel Gentil (trained male falcon)                      1365                 10                    10.00             120.00         133.200     11.603
1 Goshawk (Lestor)                                          1365                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Tiercel Goshawk (Estor) – ½ mark                          1365                 80                    6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
1 Lanner – ½ mark (type of falcon)                          1365                 80                    6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
1 Pipe of red wine (1 Pipe = 128 Wine Gallons) – 4 marks    1368                            640        53.33             640.00         710.400     61.882
1 Pipe of woad (indigo dye) – 5 marks                       1368                            800        66.67             800.00         888.00      77.352
3 Casks of waddasse (Used to produce lye)                   1368                 20                    6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
28 Wey of large "grossi" salt (1 wey = 14 stone = 175lbs)   1368                 20                    14.29             171.43         190.286     16.575
7 Quarters of pease (peas) (1 quarter = 8 Bushels)          1368                 14                    2.00              24.00          26.640      2.321




Man-at-arms – 12d per day                                         
Archer – Horse - 6d per day                                       
Mounted Hobbler – 6d per day   
3 Mounted footmen called "kernes" - 6d per day for all

Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on March 13, 2023, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:332110-2). But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions (https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:527795-1).
True. The point, however, still stands. Those of us who live in a modern society sometimes miss how much things are changed by concepts like food preservation and mass transportation of goods. Hence why certain things are going to cost more if they're not native to an area or region.

No, my point remains. It doesn't matter that garlic is not originally native to Europe; it had been introduced in Classical times, and by the Middle Ages, it was as easy to find as lettuce or sage. It was (and still is, even today) grown by farmers and gardeners throughout Europe, and thus should not be expensive. Now, if you are talking about coffee, tea or clover, then sure, things should be a great deal more expensive than they would be today with refrigeration and diesel-powered ships. But only if they had to be imported from elsewhere, which wasn't the case with garlic.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.


Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Wtrmute on March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wine) that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 15, 2023, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wine) that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.

I think it would be named "white wine" instead of just wine.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Rhymer88 on March 16, 2023, 05:15:44 AM
Quote from: LordBP on March 15, 2023, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wine) that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.

I think it would be named "white wine" instead of just wine.

I don't know about England, but in 15th century Germany, wine was often diluted with water (unless the intention was to actually get drunk). However, the consumption of beer was downright phenomenal and even children drank it.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM
Another book is done.


Item                                              Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Oxen                                            1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen)                      1369                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Cart Horse                                      1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      107        2          7.75       4.13              49.54          54.990      4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      125        4          3.75       5.08              60.96          67.662      5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      37         8                     5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      134        15                    7.00              84.00          93.240      8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas                     1369      8          16                    3.67              44.00          48.840      4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye)      1369                 72                    4.00              48.00          53.280      4.641
147 Quarters of Oats                              1369      19         12                    2.67              32.00          35.520      3.094
545 Quarters of Malt                              1369      181        13         4          6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
120 Bowstrings                                    1370                 4          2          0.03              0.42           0.463       0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man                 1371                            0.75       0.06              0.75           0.833       0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse     1371                            2          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat                                1371                 8                     1.33              16.00          17.760      1.547
4 Bushels of Malt                                 1371                 4                     1.00              12.00          13.320      1.160
1 Ox                                              1372                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse)                          1372                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: The Spaniard on March 19, 2023, 08:15:10 PM
Great thread!  I've been thinking about revamping the monetary system in my campaign and this is a big help.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 10:12:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Garlic was NOT hard to get in most parts of Europe. It's not a rare spice from the silk road.

And "not native to European settings"?! FFS, "Ubi allium, ibi Roma", my dude! It was literally the sacred vegetable of Mars, one of the most popular Roman gods. In England, the oldest English Language recipe book in the world (from the time of Richard II) made it clear that garlic was both an ingredient of common use for food and as medicine.
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Yeah, it was only known in Europe since the Ancient Romans/Greeks.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 10:18:59 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM
Another book is done.


Item                                              Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Oxen                                            1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen)                      1369                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Cart Horse                                      1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      107        2          7.75       4.13              49.54          54.990      4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      125        4          3.75       5.08              60.96          67.662      5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      37         8                     5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      134        15                    7.00              84.00          93.240      8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas                     1369      8          16                    3.67              44.00          48.840      4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye)      1369                 72                    4.00              48.00          53.280      4.641
147 Quarters of Oats                              1369      19         12                    2.67              32.00          35.520      3.094
545 Quarters of Malt                              1369      181        13         4          6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
120 Bowstrings                                    1370                 4          2          0.03              0.42           0.463       0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man                 1371                            0.75       0.06              0.75           0.833       0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse     1371                            2          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat                                1371                 8                     1.33              16.00          17.760      1.547
4 Bushels of Malt                                 1371                 4                     1.00              12.00          13.320      1.160
1 Ox                                              1372                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse)                          1372                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206


Dude, thanks! Are you making a document of all this?
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: LordBP on March 31, 2023, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 10:18:59 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM
Another book is done.


Item                                              Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Oxen                                            1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen)                      1369                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Cart Horse                                      1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      107        2          7.75       4.13              49.54          54.990      4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      125        4          3.75       5.08              60.96          67.662      5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      37         8                     5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      134        15                    7.00              84.00          93.240      8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas                     1369      8          16                    3.67              44.00          48.840      4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye)      1369                 72                    4.00              48.00          53.280      4.641
147 Quarters of Oats                              1369      19         12                    2.67              32.00          35.520      3.094
545 Quarters of Malt                              1369      181        13         4          6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
120 Bowstrings                                    1370                 4          2          0.03              0.42           0.463       0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man                 1371                            0.75       0.06              0.75           0.833       0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse     1371                            2          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat                                1371                 8                     1.33              16.00          17.760      1.547
4 Bushels of Malt                                 1371                 4                     1.00              12.00          13.320      1.160
1 Ox                                              1372                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse)                          1372                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206


Dude, thanks! Are you making a document of all this?

Yeah, I have it all in a spreadsheet, though I need to go back through it and do more research on it for certain items and make sure my calculations on the currency is correct.  Still have over 20 books to go through though.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 31, 2023, 10:30:18 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2023, 10:18:59 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM
Another book is done.


Item                                              Year      Pound      Shilling   Pence      Total Shilling    Total Pence    Silver(g)   Gold(g)
1 Oxen                                            1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen)                      1369                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Cart Horse                                      1369                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      107        2          7.75       4.13              49.54          54.990      4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      125        4          3.75       5.08              60.96          67.662      5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      37         8                     5.50              66.00          73.260      6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat                             1369      134        15                    7.00              84.00          93.240      8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas                     1369      8          16                    3.67              44.00          48.840      4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye)      1369                 72                    4.00              48.00          53.280      4.641
147 Quarters of Oats                              1369      19         12                    2.67              32.00          35.520      3.094
545 Quarters of Malt                              1369      181        13         4          6.67              80.00          88.800      7.735
120 Bowstrings                                    1370                 4          2          0.03              0.42           0.463       0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man                 1371                            0.75       0.06              0.75           0.833       0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse     1371                            2          0.17              2.00           2.220       0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat                                1371                 8                     1.33              16.00          17.760      1.547
4 Bushels of Malt                                 1371                 4                     1.00              12.00          13.320      1.160
1 Ox                                              1372                 13         4          13.33             160.00         177.600     15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse)                          1372                 20                    20.00             240.00         266.400     23.206


Dude, thanks! Are you making a document of all this?

Yeah, I have it all in a spreadsheet, though I need to go back through it and do more research on it for certain items and make sure my calculations on the currency is correct.  Still have over 20 books to go through though.

Dang, that's a lot of work.
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: Scooter on September 11, 2023, 03:20:38 PM
Thanks.  Saved it as a PDF landscape 65%.  Nice addition
Title: Re: Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages
Post by: grodog on October 10, 2023, 12:40:46 PM
Some additional (and excellent!) resources worth checking out, from Lisa Steele:

- Town:  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/203213
- Fief:  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/203213
- Medieval France:  https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/296112

The first two were reprinted by S. John Ross' Cumberland Games, and Lisa released the third after SJR folded up Cumberland.

Allan.