Historical costs of various items during the Late Middle Ages

Steven Mitchell · February 25, 2023, 08:57:56 PM

Quote from: Lurkndog on February 25, 2023, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 19, 2023, 09:56:18 PM

A nice trick that helps is to go with a silver economy, leave historical prices as they were, but then read all gem and jewelry costs values as is, but in silver. So that 50 gp gem is now 50 silver. This means that gold is worth a lot, but finding a big bag of silver coins is worth something. Finding gems is still helpful, even if they aren't worth all that much "gold".

I was under the impression that gem prices in D&D were designed to provide a more portable form of higher wealth. For when the party hits the "going to build a castle" level of wealth. A chest full of gems is a way to avoid a state where moving your money requires feats of engineering.

They are--in an inflated economy because of a "Boom Town" thing where previous adventurers have already brought in hoards of coins and gems, thus making gold the basis of the economy. If you want to have a more restrained economy, all of that has to be addressed. It's all of a piece.

That's why WotC versions make money increasingly irrelevant. They've kept some of the earlier D&D conceits, but not the pieces that make it all work together, and then tried to stave off the consequences of those decisions with money sinks (e.g. magic item costs) divorced from the setting.

Point being, there's nothing wrong with having great hoards of coins and gems. If you do that in the AD&D style, it will work. OTOH, if you don't want to have great hoards of coins and gems, then you can't just decide to not have them and leave everything else unchanged. In a sense, if you take the AD&D assumptions, you don't need to do much of anything about adventurers dropping into the village with sacks of gold. The AD&D prices already take that into account.

If you want the more restrained version, then paying for a castle is difficult. That's part of the point, which is why most "castles" will be minor keeps, with the bigger castles reflecting great wealth over decades or even centuries. Or a concerted effort by someone with a lot of wealth and connections who can afford plenty of guards for the pay train of silver used to pay the construction workers.

LordBP · March 01, 2023, 07:17:50 PM

Finished another book.

Item Year Pound Shilling Pence Total Shilling Total Pence Silver(g) Gold(g)
1 Falcon Gentil (female falcon) 1360 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
1 Tiercel Gentil (trained male falcon) 1360 10 10.00 120.00 133.200 11.603
1 Goshawk (Lestor) 1360 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Tiercel Goshawk (Estor) – ½ mark 1360 80 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
1 Lanner – ½ mark (type of falcon) 1360 80 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
Wheat – 1 quarter (8 Bushels) 1360 6 6.00 72.00 79.920 6.962
Malt – 1 quarter (8 Bushels) 1360 5 5.00 60.00 66.600 5.801
Oats – 1 quarter (8 Bushels) 1360 2 6 2.50 30.00 33.300 2.901
Gallon of wine sold in Taverns – Gloucester 1360 6 0.50 6.00 6.660 0.580
Cow 1360 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
3 Beds 1362 30 10.00 120.00 133.200 11.603
2 Swans 1362 6 8 3.33 40.00 44.400 3.868
7 Sacks of clean wool (1 sack = 2 stone = 28 lbs) 1363 56 4 56.33 676.00 750.360 65.362
3 Stone of wool (1 stone = 14 lbs) 1363 2 2 2.17 26.00 28.860 2.514
2 Sacks of refuse wool (1 sack = 2 stone = 28 lbs) 1363 30 4 30.33 364.00 404.040 35.195
3 Stone of refuse wool (1 stone = 14 lbs) 1363 14 14.00 168.00 186.480 16.244
40 Weak woolfells (skin from which the wool has not been sheared or pulled) 1363 6 8 0.17 2.00 2.220 0.193

Ghostmaker · March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Garlic was NOT hard to get in most parts of Europe. It's not a rare spice from the silk road.

And "not native to European settings"?! FFS, "Ubi allium, ibi Roma", my dude! It was literally the sacred vegetable of Mars, one of the most popular Roman gods. In England, the oldest English Language recipe book in the world (from the time of Richard II) made it clear that garlic was both an ingredient of common use for food and as medicine.

https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Wtrmute · March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either. But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions.

Ghostmaker · March 06, 2023, 11:08:36 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either. But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions.

True. The point, however, still stands. Those of us who live in a modern society sometimes miss how much things are changed by concepts like food preservation and mass transportation of goods. Hence why certain things are going to cost more if they're not native to an area or region.

LordBP · March 12, 2023, 06:06:59 PM

Finished the third book.

Item Year Pound Shilling Pence Total Shilling Total Pence Silver(g) Gold(g)
1 Pair of gilded spurs 1364 2 2.00 24.00 26.640 2.321
2 Pockets of wool 1364 26 8 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
99 Woolfells 1364 16 6 0.17 2.00 2.220 0.193
1 Load of brushwood 1364 16 16.00 192.00 213.120 18.564
2 Oxen 1364 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Falcon Gentil (female falcon) 1365 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
1 Tiercel Gentil (trained male falcon) 1365 10 10.00 120.00 133.200 11.603
1 Goshawk (Lestor) 1365 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Tiercel Goshawk (Estor) – ½ mark 1365 80 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
1 Lanner – ½ mark (type of falcon) 1365 80 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
1 Pipe of red wine (1 Pipe = 128 Wine Gallons) – 4 marks 1368 640 53.33 640.00 710.400 61.882
1 Pipe of woad (indigo dye) – 5 marks 1368 800 66.67 800.00 888.00 77.352
3 Casks of waddasse (Used to produce lye) 1368 20 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
28 Wey of large "grossi" salt (1 wey = 14 stone = 175lbs) 1368 20 14.29 171.43 190.286 16.575
7 Quarters of pease (peas) (1 quarter = 8 Bushels) 1368 14 2.00 24.00 26.640 2.321

Man-at-arms – 12d per day
Archer – Horse - 6d per day
Mounted Hobbler – 6d per day
3 Mounted footmen called "kernes" - 6d per day for all

Wtrmute · March 13, 2023, 10:16:51 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 11:08:36 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 06, 2023, 07:21:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Sure, but wheat is not native to Europe either. But by Classical times, it had already been introduced to most of Europe where it remained in cultivation through the Middle Ages into the present day. Same with garlic, and onions.
True. The point, however, still stands. Those of us who live in a modern society sometimes miss how much things are changed by concepts like food preservation and mass transportation of goods. Hence why certain things are going to cost more if they're not native to an area or region.

No, my point remains. It doesn't matter that garlic is not originally native to Europe; it had been introduced in Classical times, and by the Middle Ages, it was as easy to find as lettuce or sage. It was (and still is, even today) grown by farmers and gardeners throughout Europe, and thus should not be expensive. Now, if you are talking about coffee, tea or clover, then sure, things should be a great deal more expensive than they would be today with refrigeration and diesel-powered ships. But only if they had to be imported from elsewhere, which wasn't the case with garlic.

LordBP · March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM

Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

Wtrmute · March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM

Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.

LordBP · March 15, 2023, 06:13:53 PM

Quote from: Wtrmute on March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.

I think it would be named "white wine" instead of just wine.

Rhymer88 · March 16, 2023, 05:15:44 AM

Quote from: LordBP on March 15, 2023, 06:13:53 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on March 15, 2023, 05:24:27 PM
Quote from: LordBP on March 14, 2023, 10:59:38 PM
Did learn a new thing today.

When they talk about wine, it may be cider instead of wine, so I think in my lists, when they mention "red wine" that is actual wine like we think of it.

I don't know about that; that would imply that white wine did not exist then, but Wikipedia says that white wine has existed for 4 000 years.

I think it would be named "white wine" instead of just wine.

I don't know about England, but in 15th century Germany, wine was often diluted with water (unless the intention was to actually get drunk). However, the consumption of beer was downright phenomenal and even children drank it.

LordBP · March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM

Another book is done.

Item Year Pound Shilling Pence Total Shilling Total Pence Silver(g) Gold(g)
1 Oxen 1369 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen) 1369 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Cart Horse 1369 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat 1369 107 2 7.75 4.13 49.54 54.990 4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat 1369 125 4 3.75 5.08 60.96 67.662 5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat 1369 37 8 5.50 66.00 73.260 6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat 1369 134 15 7.00 84.00 93.240 8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas 1369 8 16 3.67 44.00 48.840 4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye) 1369 72 4.00 48.00 53.280 4.641
147 Quarters of Oats 1369 19 12 2.67 32.00 35.520 3.094
545 Quarters of Malt 1369 181 13 4 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
120 Bowstrings 1370 4 2 0.03 0.42 0.463 0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man 1371 0.75 0.06 0.75 0.833 0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse 1371 2 0.17 2.00 2.220 0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat 1371 8 1.33 16.00 17.760 1.547
4 Bushels of Malt 1371 4 1.00 12.00 13.320 1.160
1 Ox 1372 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse) 1372 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206

The Spaniard · March 19, 2023, 08:15:10 PM

Great thread! I've been thinking about revamping the monetary system in my campaign and this is a big help.

GeekyBugle · March 31, 2023, 10:12:15 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 06, 2023, 05:27:27 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 24, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 21, 2023, 08:08:12 AM
Quote from: Effete on February 19, 2023, 09:35:44 PM
Yeah, a bulb of garlic cost 5 gold. I guess "because vampires, her-dee-der", but then geezus DnD must have a huge vampire problem to inflate costs that high.
It's not the vampires. It's that certain spices and vegetables were hard to get in a pre-freight or industrialization world. Garlic isn't native to typical European settings, so it makes sense it'd be more expensive. Some exotic spices can be literally worth their weight in gold.

(Whatever its flaws, 2E's Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue actually illustrates this, with merchandise from further out being unusually expensive. Even in a magic heavy setting like FR, they can't ship barrels of tofu.)

Garlic was NOT hard to get in most parts of Europe. It's not a rare spice from the silk road.

And "not native to European settings"?! FFS, "Ubi allium, ibi Roma", my dude! It was literally the sacred vegetable of Mars, one of the most popular Roman gods. In England, the oldest English Language recipe book in the world (from the time of Richard II) made it clear that garlic was both an ingredient of common use for food and as medicine.
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:528796-1

Granted, it spread like a weed, but it wasn't originally native to Europe.

Yeah, it was only known in Europe since the Ancient Romans/Greeks.

GeekyBugle · March 31, 2023, 10:18:59 PM

Quote from: LordBP on March 17, 2023, 06:26:23 PM
Another book is done.

Item Year Pound Shilling Pence Total Shilling Total Pence Silver(g) Gold(g)
1 Oxen 1369 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
1 Stot (Castrated male Oxen) 1369 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Cart Horse 1369 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206
519 Quarters of Wheat 1369 107 2 7.75 4.13 49.54 54.990 4.790
493 Quarters of Wheat 1369 125 4 3.75 5.08 60.96 67.662 5.894
136 Quarters of Wheat 1369 37 8 5.50 66.00 73.260 6.382
385 Quarters of Wheat 1369 134 15 7.00 84.00 93.240 8.122
48 Quarters of Beans and Peas 1369 8 16 3.67 44.00 48.840 4.254
18 Quarters of Maslin (mix of Wheat and Rye) 1369 72 4.00 48.00 53.280 4.641
147 Quarters of Oats 1369 19 12 2.67 32.00 35.520 3.094
545 Quarters of Malt 1369 181 13 4 6.67 80.00 88.800 7.735
120 Bowstrings 1370 4 2 0.03 0.42 0.463 0.040
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man 1371 0.75 0.06 0.75 0.833 0.073
Ferry ride across a river – 1 man and 1 horse 1371 2 0.17 2.00 2.220 0.193
6 Bushels of Wheat 1371 8 1.33 16.00 17.760 1.547
4 Bushels of Malt 1371 4 1.00 12.00 13.320 1.160
1 Ox 1372 13 4 13.33 160.00 177.600 15.470
1 Hackney (Riding horse) 1372 20 20.00 240.00 266.400 23.206

Dude, thanks! Are you making a document of all this?