Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 12:22:52 PMBut yeah, I don't have a checklist of how many sessions you miss, I mean life happens, right? But if it becomes noticeable thing, the axe has to fall, and I'll cut'em loose, no hard feelings etc. The Game(tm) must go on.

My criteria is up to 2 weeks missed without explanation. Up to 4 weeks with an explanation. Being late is OK but being absent isn't.

I have trouble grokking the idea that there is some big problem with 5e D&D at high level. It seems to run very smoothly to me.  3e/PF certainly breaks down, but that is obvious from mid level, around 7th IME. Edit: Not seen a problem with 1e AD&D or BECMI D&D either, really. BECMI has a bit of an issue with Fireball being too powerful in the teen levels - it gets very eggshells-with-hammers -but this doesn't ruin the game.

Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 12:22:52 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 03, 2022, 11:53:51 AM
A thing that has worked for me is asking that people have the next 3 months free in advance and also never skipping more then 1 week of game. Before long it becomes a habbit.

When I get an open spot at my table - I'm very upfront about the time-requirements. This, more than anything else usually ends the discussion. I play with a group of professional people, everyone has fairly serious day-jobs, some married with kids, in different job sectors. So we take our weekend game "serious", which I liken to a very active bowling/softball league. We play once a week, from 4pm to Midnight and we try to pack as much in there as possible.

It's a *huge* requirement, I realize, but that's my primary demand. I've had to turn away a lot of potentially good folks that couldn't make that schedule, and frankly it weirded me out for years before I realized people don't play like that very much any longer.

But yeah, I don't have a checklist of how many sessions you miss, I mean life happens, right? But if it becomes noticeable thing, the axe has to fall, and I'll cut'em loose, no hard feelings etc. The Game(tm) must go on.

On one hand, this is a game, not a job. I'm reminded of the MUSHes I played on back in the day that required an application to play a character, and the app could almost be like a term paper.

On the other hand, an inconstant or vanishing player is a pain in the ass, especially in games if you don't have someone to pick up the slack of the missing PC. What do you DO with a character whose player has gone walkabout? NPC him? Have someone else run him? What if they're someone necessary? We had that happen in the PF campaign I played in, where our wizard just nope'd out and never came back; I took the hit, shelved my existing PC, and rolled up a sorcerer to fill the hole.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2022, 01:32:05 PMOn one hand, this is a game, not a job

Its like being part of a hobby sports team/ theatre play. People still depend on you.

Attendance policy works both ways.  If the game has certain thresholds that need to be met to make it work, you can't include people who won't meet them.  Conversely, if the primary goal is to play a game with these specific people, then the game needs to be setup to handle what they can reasonably do.  Making it great that we aren't limited to one game, and can vary the group and rules according to the goal.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 03, 2022, 01:32:05 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 12:22:52 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 03, 2022, 11:53:51 AM
A thing that has worked for me is asking that people have the next 3 months free in advance and also never skipping more then 1 week of game. Before long it becomes a habbit.

When I get an open spot at my table - I'm very upfront about the time-requirements. This, more than anything else usually ends the discussion. I play with a group of professional people, everyone has fairly serious day-jobs, some married with kids, in different job sectors. So we take our weekend game "serious", which I liken to a very active bowling/softball league. We play once a week, from 4pm to Midnight and we try to pack as much in there as possible.

It's a *huge* requirement, I realize, but that's my primary demand. I've had to turn away a lot of potentially good folks that couldn't make that schedule, and frankly it weirded me out for years before I realized people don't play like that very much any longer.

But yeah, I don't have a checklist of how many sessions you miss, I mean life happens, right? But if it becomes noticeable thing, the axe has to fall, and I'll cut'em loose, no hard feelings etc. The Game(tm) must go on.

On one hand, this is a game, not a job. I'm reminded of the MUSHes I played on back in the day that required an application to play a character, and the app could almost be like a term paper.

On the other hand, an inconstant or vanishing player is a pain in the ass, especially in games if you don't have someone to pick up the slack of the missing PC. What do you DO with a character whose player has gone walkabout? NPC him? Have someone else run him? What if they're someone necessary? We had that happen in the PF campaign I played in, where our wizard just nope'd out and never came back; I took the hit, shelved my existing PC, and rolled up a sorcerer to fill the hole.

I remember some of those, they were ridiculous. But the dedication the players showed to something like PernMUSH was astonishing. Everyone would log in for something like the flight of a new queen.

There's a middle ground, but it can be really hard to thread that needle. I think a lot of it just falls back on relationships and those intangible social skills. Attendance can break an on-going serial campaign, so in those types of games it's important to set expectations, filter players, and have a mechanism to boot them out if it doesn't work. But the how can vary. But it's also useful to recognize when that's not achievable (often tied to changes in life stages), and just shift games.

Quote from: RebelSky on February 02, 2022, 03:14:18 PM
Yesterday I watched a video podcast called The Grand Campaign. The first episode just came out. The focus of this podcast is all about playing and managing campaigns that last year's of in game time as well as IRL time. Really good discussion. Made me realize what I've been missing in my gaming.

Can you link it? I'm interested.

Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 12:22:52 PM

When I get an open spot at my table - I'm very upfront about the time-requirements. This, more than anything else usually ends the discussion. I play with a group of professional people, everyone has fairly serious day-jobs, some married with kids, in different job sectors. So we take our weekend game "serious", which I liken to a very active bowling/softball league. We play once a week, from 4pm to Midnight and we try to pack as much in there as possible.

[/quote]

Damn!  I wish I lived in your neighborhood.  I'd love to be involved in a hardcore campaign like that.  The last "regular" group I played with was 10 years ago and that was seldom more than twice a month due to everyone's schedules.  And we rotated DMing so it was basically a series of modules or 1-2 shot home brewed adventures.  After I moved away they started a regular campaign that ran for like 8-9 years until it wrapped up last year.  Not sure what they're doing now.

I play with family mostly and they're much more casual about it than me.  So we might go months without playing, then play 3 times in a week.  But it's hard to keep momentum that way.  And they greatly prefer stripped down games.  So these days it's mostly OSE or White Box, which is totally fine by me, but I'd like to play more.  We're hoping to do more of a campaign style with The One Ring (using White Box) as they have enough sense of the world, albeit mostly from the movies, that we can keep going without them forgetting a bunch of setting specific stuff.

Quote from: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 05:03:40 PMSystem wise, I just make it work for me. That's what the DM's hammer is for, and the Viking Hat. If D&D has a rule I don't like--I change it. If D&D doesn't have a rule I think is necessary, I create my own rules to cover whatever it is that I want covered. I have a vision for how my world works. I've been running my world of Thandor for decades now--so I know Thandor better than Greyhawk, better than Forgotten Realms, better than any commercial world presented out there. I always make the rules fit the world, and not the world fitting the rules. The World comes first, and the rules serve the world. You have to be absolutely ruthless about this kind of thing, or every 6 or 8 years some group of "game designers" will write a bunch of stupid shit that can absolutely fuck up everything you have spent literally decades creating.

I remain the Dungeon Master, and am always in absolute command.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What do you do if you want to make a change that your players don't want? Do you just do it anyway?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 03, 2022, 12:57:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 12:22:52 PMBut yeah, I don't have a checklist of how many sessions you miss, I mean life happens, right? But if it becomes noticeable thing, the axe has to fall, and I'll cut'em loose, no hard feelings etc. The Game(tm) must go on.

My criteria is up to 2 weeks missed without explanation. Up to 4 weeks with an explanation. Being late is OK but being absent isn't.

Attendance has been a problem of mine with some groups. People showing up late, with no warning -- now everyone else who's on time is wondering -- should we go ahead and start without them? Should we wait? How long should we wait? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? An hour? Should we just cancel? And when it happens over and over it starts to wear away at you mentally because you're never sure what you're doing that night in the game as a GM, or if you're even having the game that night.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 03, 2022, 05:56:14 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 02, 2022, 05:03:40 PMSystem wise, I just make it work for me. That's what the DM's hammer is for, and the Viking Hat. If D&D has a rule I don't like--I change it. If D&D doesn't have a rule I think is necessary, I create my own rules to cover whatever it is that I want covered. I have a vision for how my world works. I've been running my world of Thandor for decades now--so I know Thandor better than Greyhawk, better than Forgotten Realms, better than any commercial world presented out there. I always make the rules fit the world, and not the world fitting the rules. The World comes first, and the rules serve the world. You have to be absolutely ruthless about this kind of thing, or every 6 or 8 years some group of "game designers" will write a bunch of stupid shit that can absolutely fuck up everything you have spent literally decades creating.

I remain the Dungeon Master, and am always in absolute command.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What do you do if you want to make a change that your players don't want? Do you just do it anyway?

Greetings!

Well, yeah. I just do it anyway. *Laughing* It's my campaign, my world.

I am the person that has spent 40 years writing, organizing, and developing the game world. There are some things on occasion that I have consulted topics with them, and gain their input in on, for certain. However, the game world, and the different game rules, simply have to work for me, as a priority. If something isn't working for ME, it doesn't matter if the players love it. It gets changed or cut the fuck out. Players may love spells like Teleport, Raise Dead, Commune, and Fly--but in my campaign, they are cut out entirely or heavily restricted. Players often have a parochial, self-interested view in how things should work. Players often simply do not grasp the dozens of verisimilitude things and inner mechanics and workings that a DM must consider in how the game world runs.

Thankfully, the players all enjoy the campaigns, and trust me that I know what the fuck I'm doing, and why I do what I do. Thus, it isn't really something that comes up.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: tenbones on February 03, 2022, 11:37:09 AM
.......  When others on this thread say "My campaign ran for 5+ years..." I know people at my LFGS that do *not* believe such things exist (and I'd generalize a bit and guess most of them got into the hobby in the latter-era of 3.x). 4e and 5e has only cemented this kind of attitude that high-level play only exists for a brief time you could count on a few encounters likely at the end of a Box Campaign set. At least that's the attitude I get from a lot of newer players.

For me I find it odd that people don't run multiyear campaigns, I mean that's why we are playing right?  To see how far down the rabbit hole goes?

I think some people are hooked on making characters but not actually playing one character in a living & breathing fantasy world.   One of the younger players in our group is always talking about "his next character he is thinking about playing"   He seems more excited about his new character than focusing on the one he is playing. 

Quote from: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 06:14:39 PM

Greetings!

Well, yeah. I just do it anyway. *Laughing* It's my campaign, my world.

I am the person that has spent 40 years writing, organizing, and developing the game world. There are some things on occasion that I have consulted topics with them, and gain their input in on, for certain. However, the game world, and the different game rules, simply have to work for me, as a priority. If something isn't working for ME, it doesn't matter if the players love it. It gets changed or cut the fuck out. Players may love spells like Teleport, Raise Dead, Commune, and Fly--but in my campaign, they are cut out entirely or heavily restricted. Players often have a parochial, self-interested view in how things should work. Players often simply do not grasp the dozens of verisimilitude things and inner mechanics and workings that a DM must consider in how the game world runs.

Thankfully, the players all enjoy the campaigns, and trust me that I know what the fuck I'm doing, and why I do what I do. Thus, it isn't really something that comes up.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is the way!

I'm the PermaGM for my group and if said, ok guys all spells in the next campaign will be rare and hard to find.   Half the group would still roll up spellcasters and play without complaint.  How do I know this?  Because our current campaign is just that!   The effect was just what I've read about in some of the old fantasy novels.   Wizards mistrust each other, horde spell knowledge and will go to great lengths to keep their spell books out of the wrong hands.   So, when they do defeat an enemy spellcaster, it's like having to send in the bomb squad in to make sure that the book is not trapped and if it is how do they disarm it to keep spell knowledge from going up in smoke.   Fun times

Quote from: Krugus on February 03, 2022, 07:13:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 03, 2022, 06:14:39 PM

Greetings!

Well, yeah. I just do it anyway. *Laughing* It's my campaign, my world.

I am the person that has spent 40 years writing, organizing, and developing the game world. There are some things on occasion that I have consulted topics with them, and gain their input in on, for certain. However, the game world, and the different game rules, simply have to work for me, as a priority. If something isn't working for ME, it doesn't matter if the players love it. It gets changed or cut the fuck out. Players may love spells like Teleport, Raise Dead, Commune, and Fly--but in my campaign, they are cut out entirely or heavily restricted. Players often have a parochial, self-interested view in how things should work. Players often simply do not grasp the dozens of verisimilitude things and inner mechanics and workings that a DM must consider in how the game world runs.

Thankfully, the players all enjoy the campaigns, and trust me that I know what the fuck I'm doing, and why I do what I do. Thus, it isn't really something that comes up.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is the way!

I'm the PermaGM for my group and if said, ok guys all spells in the next campaign will be rare and hard to find.   Half the group would still roll up spellcasters and play without complaint.  How do I know this?  Because our current campaign is just that!   The effect was just what I've read about in some of the old fantasy novels.   Wizards mistrust each other, horde spell knowledge and will go to great lengths to keep their spell books out of the wrong hands.   So, when they do defeat an enemy spellcaster, it's like having to send in the bomb squad in to make sure that the book is not trapped and if it is how do they disarm it to keep spell knowledge from going up in smoke.   Fun times

If they're so rare why don't they work together to combine all their spells?

I wanted a similar dynamic and that's what my players did instead. Either way I was pleased because of the teamwork.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on February 03, 2022, 07:52:20 PM

If they're so rare why don't they work together to combine all their spells?

I wanted a similar dynamic and that's what my players did instead. Either way I was pleased because of the teamwork.

I have a great bunch of players in that they just follow my lead when it comes to rule changes, and it helps when the change I lay down is from something their characters in a previous campaign did to cause such change to the world at large.   You see there are consequences to your actions in my world that can kick off unforeseen events that effect the next campaign.   Most of the time it's something small and other times is world changing