Quote from: soviet;567647I'm not sure what playing from a first person POV but with your own persona would look like. I feel like I nearly understand you but we're still talking past each other a bit.

Playing from a first-person POV but with your own persona is imagining yourself in situation. As though you were there, and reacting to the events in the game as though you were in front of them, live.

It's what I was talking about there.

Quote from: sovietI'm not sure what playing from a first person POV but with your own persona would look like. I feel like I nearly understand you but we're still talking past each other a bit.

Sanc covers it pretty closely here.  Jack is using first person POV descriptors, and the GM is trying to break him from it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;567637Jack, playing his character named Thrud
Bill, playing the DM
Penny: playing her character Illandria


Jack: I slowly open the door and peer inside.
Bill: The room is an inky pitch black.  You can't see anything
Jack: I slowly put one foot in front of the other feeling my way in.  Do I feel anything?
Bill:  Well, Thrud feels something slippery on the floor, but nothing major.
Jack:  Ok, well I slowly make my way into the room, axe at ready.
Penny: Be careful.
DM: As you enter, Thrud suddenly feels a slimy appendage creep up his leg.
Jack:  Holy!  Illandria!  Get in here!  I feel something attacking me!
DM: Well, no.  Thrud feels something attacking him.  You don't feel anything do you?
Jack:  Well....no I guess.
DM:  Ok.  Well anyway, The slimy warm tentacle slowly makes its way up Thrud's leg.  You feel a tingly probing sensation, as the tentacle seems to be covered by hundreds of little knobs, each one coated with some sort of anesthetic.  The probes work further upward.  The tingly sensation reaches Thrud's testicles.  Then his anus.  They...
Jack:  Whaoh!  Now I totally feel something, and it's called major awkward discomfort.
Penny:  So you do feel what Thrud feels.  Argument solved.

Quote from: CRKrueger;567650and there I would agree with you.

However, a lot of times, someone (a deep immersion roleplayer) tries to explain how a mechanic can be metagame, dissociated, immersion-breaking, and gets downright curbstomped for being anything from dishonest (you're just inventing shit to justify "not liking it"), to downright insane (as in delusional).

Do some searching on the topic, key poster the 4venger Seanchai, you'll see what I mean.

Morrow, Ben, Vreeg, me, Traveller, et al might sound crazy sometimes, but we've had entire thousand post threads where people went to the mattresses fighting tooth and nail every inch to try to prevent the kind of communication and agreement you and I just had in a few posts.  I'm not joking or exaggerating either.

Heh. Well, I think sometimes words like dissociated and immersion breaking are taken as insults and ways to label something as 'not proper roleplaying'. Whether they're meant that way or not. I think this may be an example of where putting a label on something is counter-productive. Say something interferes with your immersion due to the way you like to play? Cool. Say that thing is a dissociated metagame mechanic? TO THE MATTRESSES!

Quote from: soviet;567651See what I mean?

I see I wouldn't like to cross you in a playground. This

Quote from: CRKruegerHowever, a lot of times, someone (a deep immersion roleplayer) tries to explain how a mechanic can be metagame, dissociated, immersion-breaking, and gets downright curbstomped for being anything from dishonest (you're just inventing shit to justify "not liking it"), to downright insane (as in delusional).

doesn't even begin to cover the level of vicious nastiness many of your fellow shared narrative gamers have regularly displayed in every forum they've managed to pollute.

Quote from: Benoist;567652Playing from a first-person POV but with your own persona is imagining yourself in situation. As though you were there, and reacting to the events in the game as though you were in front of them, live.

It's what I was talking about there.

I think this is how I roleplay, whether in a storygame or something more traditional. I am imagining myself in that situation and reacting to the events as though they were happening live. What I can't do, and maybe some of you can, is turn off that little part of my brain that says 'this is what's tactically advantageous, or this is what would be most dramatically interesting'. I can ignore what it says, but I can't stop the signal (no, I'm not hearing voices).

That's all that I see when my group plays a storygame. We're imagining ourselves in the situation, we're reacting to events, but at the back of our mind there's that thought 'what would be most dramatically interesting?'. Which we can act upon or not. And yeah occasionally there's a bit of metagame discussion about stakes or something, but it's only a minor part of the session and it's not enough to break that fundamental experience of imagining ourselves in the situation and reacting to events.

Quote from: The Traveller;567657I see I wouldn't like to cross you in a playground.

Dude, what the fuck are you doing in a playground?

Quote from: The Traveller;567657This ... doesn't even begin to cover the level of vicious nastiness many of your fellow shared narrative gamers have regularly displayed in every forum they've managed to pollute.

There are assholes on every side of the fence.

Quote from: soviet;567663Dude, what the fuck are you doing in a playground?

Apparently jousting over the internet with one of the natives. Seriously though, try letting go and just being the character, its a lot of fun. Many see it as being the very heart of the experience, the point of the operation - its not easy sometimes, but the rewards are worth it. I find myself roleplaying even in non roleplaying games, to the amusement of others and myself, voice-overing a gruff Prussian general in Risk for example.

Quote from: soviet;567661I think this is how I roleplay, whether in a storygame or something more traditional. I am imagining myself in that situation and reacting to the events as though they were happening live. What I can't do, and maybe some of you can, is turn off that little part of my brain that says 'this is what's tactically advantageous, or this is what would be most dramatically interesting'. I can ignore what it says, but I can't stop the signal (no, I'm not hearing voices).

I don't think you understand what immersion is at all, because you don't seem to have experienced it like, ever, by your own admission. It's very hard to explain from there, because really it's sort of a matter-of-fact thing to me and, judging from the zillions of conversations we've had here about it, to others as well. When I tell you "you close your eyes and you are in situation and you just react to what you see as though you were there" that's it: you either get it, or you don't. When you construe what I'm saying as being compatible with a 3rd person stance where you consider the "dramatic implications" of your choices as a player on something like "a story" that you would participate in "building" from participating to it from your chair, that tells me you don't get it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;567650However, a lot of times, someone (a deep immersion roleplayer) tries to explain how a mechanic can be metagame, dissociated, immersion-breaking, and gets downright curbstomped for being anything from dishonest (you're just inventing shit to justify "not liking it"), to downright insane (as in delusional).

I agree that metagame and dissociated mechanics are troublesome, but they affect far more than just deep immersion role-players. They effect anyone attempting to play with a focus on in-game reality, be it from the first or third person viewpoint.

Quote from: soviet;567655Heh. Well, I think sometimes words like dissociated and immersion breaking are taken as insults and ways to label something as 'not proper roleplaying'. Whether they're meant that way or not. I think this may be an example of where putting a label on something is counter-productive. Say something interferes with your immersion due to the way you like to play? Cool. Say that thing is a dissociated metagame mechanic? TO THE MATTRESSES!

See I think it's good definition that prevents the problem.  Take for example, 4e.

Now a lot of people weren't die hard 3ers, or proto-OSR grognards, but for them 4e was a weird experience.  They couldn't define it so, they went with inaccurate terms based on how it "felt".
It's like a MMOG.
With the powers it plays more like Magic.
It's not a Roleplaying game.

Such things are not true. 4e is a role-playing game, it is not a boardgame, cardgame or MMOG.  It IS however, a Role-playing game with a laser-like focus (or Forge-like Coherence) on a single-mode of play, that namely being of the character as a construct holding a set of powers that was meant to interact with the world in set-piece units of encounters to deliver a very tight, exact, tactical experience.  (For not being influenced at all by the Forge, which is claimed often here, 4e sure did a PERFECT job of delivering in GNS terms a Coherent Gamist experience).

Now if people knew the game theory terms behind all that, they may have been able to define exactly what was rubbing them the wrong way.  Instead they mistakenly said, "it's not a RPG" and the curbstomping did commence.

Language can be used to obfuscate, and definitions can be intentionally used to muddy the waters rather then clarify things.  However, with any communication medium, if you start with the premise that everyone is going to lie to suit their own ends, they why attempt to communicate at all?  Verbal sparring as sport?  Shits & Giggles?

When it comes to roleplaying/storygaming, there is more then a difference of opinion, there is a difference of perception.  The only way to try and decode that difference is to define it I think.

Quote from: gleichman;567670I agree that metagame and dissociated mechanics are troublesome, but they affect far more than just deep immersion role-players. They effect anyone attempting to play with a focus on in-game reality, be it from the first or third person viewpoint.

Correct, it just affects to different degrees.  To some it might be part of that "smoothing over" we were talking about, to others it effectively becomes a different activity altogether.

Quote from: Benoist;567666I don't think you understand what immersion is at all, because you don't seem to have experienced it like, ever, by your own admission.

I don't think one needs to experience something to understand another's description of it. A person can give me a good enough mental image of a rattlesnake for me to know one if I should cross paths with it in the future (and that I shouldn't grab it up like it was a kitten).

Myself, I'm not a 'deep immersion' player, never have been and never will be. But I know enough about them that I wouldn't want to be in their games, or have them in mine.

There's very little common ground with a deep immersion player and other types. Many of them (like yourself) don't think any method other than their own is role-playing at all, and thus the well starts poisoned. Others (like John Morrow) have standards that I likely couldn't meet.

Come on Ben, cut off this "deep immersion" bullshit. We sit to play a fucking game, not to reach nirvana or have a fucking spiritual journey inside a fucking alter-ego or some crap like that. Tell me: when you play soccer or basketball do you also seek to be "one with the ball" or some nonsense shit like that ? Because I play to have fun with my friends and sweat a little bit. Stop making this seem like a spiritual experience or shit like that.

This is a fucking game, caralho!

Quote from: silva;567685Come on Ben, cut off this "deep immersion" bullshit. We sit to play a fucking game, not to reach nirvana or have a fucking spiritual journey inside a fucking alter-ego or some crap like that. Tell me: when you play soccer or basketball do you also seek to be "one with the ball" or some nonsense shit like that ? Because I play to have fun with my friends and sweat a little bit. Stop making this seem like a spiritual experience or shit like that.

This is a fucking game, caralho!

I used to do a bit of sports and i would compare immersion to being in the zone, where everything is just naturally flowing. But i dont think a sports analogy is all that apt since the goal of a sport is to play it and win, but rpgs are more about getting into a character.

I am not going to tell people there is one way or a best way to do it, but for me the fun starts when you feel like you are the character (even as a gm playing npcs this is where i start to enjoy myself). Again it is primarily about feel for me than what may actually bd going on.

Quote from: silva;567685This is a fucking game, caralho!

silva, old chap, take a break from the computer, have a cafezinho, chill the fuck out. Swearing in English or in Portuguese won't help you get a point across.