TheRPGSite

:D :p

But seriously this is awesome news :

QuoteAnnouncing Champions Complete
July 23, 2012
The ultimate super roleplaying game returns to reclaim its crown in *Champions Complete!* All the legendary flexibility and power of the renowned *HERO System* rules engine, plus all the superhero goodness *Champions* has been famous for over 30 years, now in one pulse-pounding, senses-shattering, heroic handbook of superpowered action!
At 240 pages, *Champions Complete* includes everything superhero gamers need, and nothing they don't. New players will love the unmatched freedom of *Champions* that allows them to create and play exactly the hero they imagine. Longtime fans will appreciate the tight, concise new approach, presenting the full game system in a fraction of its former length.
HERO System 6th Edition
978-1-58366-145-1
HERO2000
Author: Derek Hiemforth
Cover: Sam R. Kennedy
Layout: Ruben Smith Zempel
PDF: $20.00
Print: $40.00
Print+PDF: $40.00
240pp B&W interior with color softcover.
PDF will be made available with every retail purchase
via Bits and Mortar
Look for Champions Complete in Fall of 2012!

http://www.herogames.com/home.htm

Back to the BBB.

Now if only SJgames would follow suit I'd be a happy man.

I was a HUGE HERO System fan once, but 6th edition killed it for me and I certainly have no interest in yet another cut paste 6E product from HERO Games, let alone something that is more 'cut' than 'paste'.

No sale here. Let me know if they go back to 5th edition and supporting the grid again.

It only took them 10 or so years to figure out that people want an all-in-one book. I'll probably pick this up!

240 pages? Sounds like a manageable game to me, unlike every post-4e incarnation. Color me intrigued.

I had heard that there was some movement towards simplifying mechanics and making the game more like Champions Online.  Ive been away from Champions for so long, I dont have a clue about this (I did place CO for a while though). Did that actually happen?

Quote from: The Butcher;567199240 pages? Sounds like a manageable game to me, unlike every post-4e incarnation. Color me intrigued.

There are a couple pretty big Hero fans in my weekly game, and they keep up with Hero news more than I do. Anyway, from what they've told me, apparently Hero isn't cutting any of the actual rules. Just a bunch of examples and stuff. Normally I'd be skeptical considering that at 240 pages they're cutting at least 75% of the text, but I've actually read a good amount of the first 6E book so I can believe it. Just cutting out the repeated references to "common sense, dramatic sense, etc." that crop up everywhere would be enough to significantly trim those books. It's a nice system from what I've read, but man are those guys verbose!

Quote from: Lynn;567259I had heard that there was some movement towards simplifying mechanics and making the game more like Champions Online.  Ive been away from Champions for so long, I dont have a clue about this (I did place CO for a while though). Did that actually happen?

No, definitely not. Ruleswise, 6e(and the upcoming Complete, which they claim will still contain all of the 6e rules) is still on par with 5e. Remember a large part of the 5e and 6e corebooks is advice and examples. Click here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74887-5E-To-6E-Character-Conversion-Summary) for a thread over at the Hero Games forums that has a character conversion thing that goes over the various changes.

40$ for such a cheap SC hardcopy in B/W?
Color me uninterested.

$40 does seem a bit much for 240pg B&W softcover.  It's not in the realm of insanity however.

Quote from: CRKrueger;567275$40 does seem a bit much for 240pg B&W softcover.  It's not in the realm of insanity however.

AD&D 1st Edition Reprint is $45, and that matches pretty well with the original price from the late 70s, factoring for inflation.  I don't think $40 is out of line for 240pgs.

$40 for both print and PDF via Bits & Mortar has me intrested.

Quote from: StormBringer;567362AD&D 1st Edition Reprint is $45, and that matches pretty well with the original price from the late 70s, factoring for inflation.  I don't think $40 is out of line for 240pgs.

The AD&D reprints are hardcover.  And $10 in 1979 is the equivalent of $29.64 in 2010 dollars.

So $40 for a softcover is pretty steep.

You can get the HERO Combat and Adventuring book, in hardcover, 80 more pages or so, and in color for $40 on Amazon now (until they run out of copies at least).

At Lulu and, my own Age of Heroes costs about $25 (my price) in hardcover with B&W interior, and it clocks in at around 50 more pages.

Given that this new book is basically a bunch of information contained in books they've released previously, I can't imagine how they justify $40.

Quote from: StormBringer;567362AD&D 1st Edition Reprint is $45, and that matches pretty well with the original price from the late 70s, factoring for inflation.  I don't think $40 is out of line for 240pgs.

1e reprints are ridiculously well-bound hardcover foil and color picture inlaid faux-leather, with gilt paper edges and a bookmark ribbon.

Not exactly a softcover. :D

Compare with the $50-some for softcover b&w RQ6 clocking in at 400+ (plus pdf).

Hero's about 10 bucks too high, they need to drop the price or toss in a pdf.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;567374The AD&D reprints are hardcover.  And $10 in 1979 is the equivalent of $29.64 in 2010 dollars.

So $40 for a softcover is pretty steep.

Quote from: CRKrueger;5673811e reprints are ridiculously well-bound hardcover foil and color picture  inlaid faux-leather, with gilt paper edges and a bookmark ribbon.

Not exactly a softcover. :D

Compare with the $50-some for softcover b&w RQ6 clocking in at 400+ (plus pdf).

Hero's about 10 bucks too high, they need to drop the price or toss in a pdf.

Ah, I thought they would put out a hardcover like the 5th edition.  Yeah, $40 is a bit high for softcover, unless it is as big as RQ6 there.  The AD&D reprints are almost exactly in line with the originals, but I don't recall anyone doing big rulebooks in softcover before Palladium, nor how much their book cost back then.

Do you think just maybe WotC are working with bigger volume discounts than Hero Games?

Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;567435Do you think just maybe WotC are working with bigger volume discounts than Hero Games?

Agreed but Loz and Pete did way better then Hero pricewise.

Quote from: CRKrueger;567381Hero's about 10 bucks too high, they need to drop the price or toss in a pdf.

They are offering the pdf with the print via bits and mortar.

I haven't played/run Champions since 4E. When i got Hero 5th, I got bored about 10 pages in, put it on my shelf, and never picked it up again.

This actually has me interested in checking it out again, as the buy in price isn't that steep, and I get both print and pdf copies.

Quote from: Piestrio;567172:D :p

But seriously this is awesome news :



http://www.herogames.com/home.htm

Back to the BBB.

Now if only SJgames would follow suit I'd be a happy man.

"Longtime fans will appreciate the tight, concise new approach, presenting the full game system in a fraction of its former length."

Sometimes circumcision is a good thing.

JG

Quote from: Piestrio;567172:D :p

But seriously this is awesome news :



http://www.herogames.com/home.htm

Back to the BBB.

Now if only SJgames would follow suit I'd be a happy man.

Why and what should SJGames follow?

I was publishing game books a decade ago, and the price scale we worked off of then was that for a book of that size, we'd sell it for $30. Here's the rub, though - since that time, the number of books that you can expect to sell dropped a lot, and the evergreen sales dropped to almost nothing. It was enough that I got out of the game industry. Still, I've worked with Hero Games. They're not pricing to screw the customer. I completely believe that $40 is the new price point that they've got to set to stay in business.

Gamers have always had unrealistic expectations when it comes to book prices.

Quote from: danbuter;567924Gamers have always had unrealistic expectations when it comes to book prices.

If someone thinks rpg books are way overpriced, don't buy college textbooks.

Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;567923Here's the rub, though - since that time, the number of books that you can expect to sell dropped a lot, and the evergreen sales dropped to almost nothing.

I think this is what their issue is. They can't sell enough books to pay for the time spent writing it, the art put into it (assuming there's a new art cost at all) or to get a good price on their print run- so they are forced to price it at a level significantly above that of similiar gaming books.

It's another sign that HERO 6E killed the product, what we're seeing here is death rattles.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;567925If someone thinks rpg books are way overpriced, don't buy college textbooks.

My Calc book back in 1994 cost $150. I can't imagine what it goes for now.

Quote from: danbuter;567928My Calc book back in 1994 cost $150. I can't imagine what it goes for now.

And I bet the 1995 class couldn't use it because a new one came out, despite the only changes being a slight variation in cover art.

Such a racket.

Quote from: danbuter;567928My Calc book back in 1994 cost $150. I can't imagine what it goes for now.

About $200 or a little more.  There seems to be a new-ish trend where schools are getting textbooks that are edited more closely for their own curriculum, so they are somewhat less expensive, as they drop out chapters the school doesn't want.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;567933And I bet the 1995 class couldn't use it because a new one came out, despite the only changes being a slight variation in cover art.

Such a racket.

Don't get me started.  Although the Trig instructor I had did set up book assignments from the current version and one or two earlier versions so students didn't necessarily need to purchase the new book all the time.

They did something like this before with the 5th edition "Hero Sidekick" - which was also the basis for the PS 238 Roleplaying Game.  It wasn't too bad, but I still thought 4th edition was better.

So, as someone who played a bit of 4e a long time ago; whose favorite supers RPG used to be Mayfair DC Heroes 3e; and who really likes the idea behind Hero's power system... should I give this a shot?

Quote from: jhkim;567962They did something like this before with the 5th edition "Hero Sidekick" - which was also the basis for the PS 238 Roleplaying Game.  It wasn't too bad, but I still thought 4th edition was better.

And this did it with 6th Edition already with a basic book (http://www.amazon.com/Hero-System-6th-Edition-Basic/dp/1583661220/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1344010765&sr=8-5&keywords=Hero+System+Basic). This likely just adds superhero setting fluff to that.

Quote from: The Butcher;567965So, as someone who played a bit of 4e a long time ago; whose favorite supers RPG used to be Mayfair DC Heroes 3e; and who really likes the idea behind Hero's power system... should I give this a shot?

If it has a compact, one-volume version of the rules (and yes, these days a single corebook for $40 IS the bargain price... my copy of Mutants & Masterminds 2nd Edition from 2005 was $39.95) with all that "superhero fluff" included, I'd say it's worth it.

JG

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;567916Why and what should SJGames follow?

It's been my contention for a while now that SJgames should release a few complete all in one games (books or boxes) for the most common genres, fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc...

Show people how to use the system without the requirement to do all the heavy
Lifting yourself.

Much like this new version of HERO or the Powered by GURPS stuff (only more general).

Something like "Banestorm: The role playing game (powered by GURPS)"

Everytime I bring this up I'm roundly shouted down by GURPSheads.

Gotcha.  SJGames could do with some "Powered by GURPS" marketing so writers can learn more about it if they haven't heard of the concept before.  I suspect that SJGames doesn't make it worth their while to write such books.  Could be a licensing problem on top of that (author has to deal with two IPs, GURPS and the subject matter).

I would like to see a Call of Cthulhu that is "Powered by GURPS".  But then two sets of lawyers are needed which eat up any money made doing the book.

I love the toolkit nature of GURPS and its supplements.

The problem is, there are too many toolkit supplements and they're all big and expensive.

I'd release a dialed-down GURPS core, and sell the bells and whistles as highly-specific PDF supplements at $5-$10 a piece, e.g. instead of one massive hulking GURPS Ultra-Tech, release GURPS Beam Weapons, GURPS Spaceships, etc.

Too me, a dialed-down GURPS core is GURPS Lite.  Don't know if there is any money to be made writing thin books for GURPS Lite.  Full-on GURPS books (128 pages each, in print still for 3rd edition) sell for $9.95.

"Powered by GURPS" books though use the core rules from GURPS.  They include just the skills and dis/advantages needed for the game setting rather than an encyclopedia worth.

Quote from: Piestrio;568185It's been my contention for a while now that SJgames should release a few complete all in one games (books or boxes) for the most common genres, fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc...

Show people how to use the system without the requirement to do all the heavy
Lifting yourself.

Much like this new version of HERO or the Powered by GURPS stuff (only more general).

Something like "Banestorm: The role playing game (powered by GURPS)"

Everytime I bring this up I'm roundly shouted down by GURPSheads.

And it's not like they haven't done it before.  I'm thinking specifically of the HELLBOY RPG and the GURPS Prime Directive corebook, which has basic rules.

JG

Quote from: CRKrueger;567275$40 does seem a bit much for 240pg B&W softcover.  It's not in the realm of insanity however.

$40 for a B&W softcover???

I don't normally comment on this site, but I stumbled across it and was so alarmed by some of the comments that I thought I had better post some information.

1) Though whether or not Hero System 6th Edition was a good idea can be argued either way, you should know the following facts: A) It had been 10 years since Steve Long had written 5th Edition, and thus was time for a new edition IMO (you learn new things over a ten year period), B) We went through a one year open process of soliciting input from fans through our website, C) We either had to reprint the old edition or create and new one - because we were completely out, and D) 6th Edition was financially successful. Granted not as successful as 5th Edition (we sold over 30,000 physical and electronic copies of the core book), but still profitable.

2) Champions Complete isn't a cut-and-paste book – or at least not mostly one. It's origins are this: after Champions 6th Edition and Hero System 6th Edition Volume 1: Character Creation sold through, we had to make a choice: we could reprint them, or we could create something new. So the investors and I had a meeting and talked about our concerns. They were thus: A) by 6th Edition buying into the the Hero System cost something like $120 between 6E1, 6E2, and Champions, which was too much and was discouraging to new players, B) Most people (not all, but most) who play HERO play Champions, so we needed to focus on them for a while, and C) we all had fond memories of the 4th Edition Champions Big Blue Book (or BBB). It got a lot of new people to play the Hero System.

So we stepped outside of our comfort zone and hired an uber-fan (Derek Hiemforth) to re-envision the BBB as as 6th Edition product. We also told him to make the best version of Champions he could imagine, rather than strictly adhering to the two previous core 6th Edition books. While there is some cut-and-paste (re: it's the Hero System, not another system), he spent months editing and writing to create Champions Complete. Think of it as a variation of 6th Edition.

3) Champions complete is not Hero System Sidekick or  Hero System Basic with Champions stuck onto it. Please see above.

4) Forty Bucks (plus the PDF for free if your FLGS is a member of bits-and-mortar) is not too much for a core book. If you don't believe me, go to your local game store and have a look around.

5) Hero Games isn't in its death throws. It's quite solvent, and our Kickstarter for The Monster Hunter International Employee Handbook and Roleplaying Game just raised 80 Grand in 30 days.  


Thank your time and interest in the Hero System.


Jason Walters, General Manager

Quote from: Piestrio;568185It's been my contention for a while now that SJgames should release a few complete all in one games (books or boxes) for the most common genres, fantasy, Sci-Fi, etc...

Show people how to use the system without the requirement to do all the heavy
Lifting yourself.

Much like this new version of HERO or the Powered by GURPS stuff (only more general).

Something like "Banestorm: The role playing game (powered by GURPS)"

Everytime I bring this up I'm roundly shouted down by GURPSheads.

Same here. I got into several debates about this on SJ Games forum.

Quote from: James Gillen;568360And it's not like they haven't done it before.  I'm thinking specifically of the HELLBOY RPG and the GURPS Prime Directive corebook, which has basic rules.

JG

When do publish something it is for something that doesn't appeal to a large number of gamers. And they wonder they don't sell.

Quote from: Jason S. Walters;5976992) Champions Complete isn't a cut-and-paste book – or at least not mostly one. It's origins are this: after Champions 6th Edition and Hero System 6th Edition Volume 1: Character Creation sold through, we had to make a choice: we could reprint them, or we could create something new. So the investors and I had a meeting and talked about our concerns. They were thus: A) by 6th Edition buying into the the Hero System cost something like $120 between 6E1, 6E2, and Champions, which was too much and was discouraging to new players, B) Most people (not all, but most) who play HERO play Champions, so we needed to focus on them for a while, and C) we all had fond memories of the 4th Edition Champions Big Blue Book (or BBB). It got a lot of new people to play the Hero System.


Thank your time and interest in the Hero System.


Jason Walters, General Manager

I am a long time fan of the Hero System and it is good to read that you did this. I am wrapping up a 5th edition campaign and will recommend this to the folks looking to get into Champions.

It will be nice to see this done for Fantasy Hero as well.

Quote from: Jason S. Walters;597699Thank your time and interest in the Hero System.

Not a Hero fan per se, but I'm happy to learn that this classic is alive and well. Thanks for posting.

The only Hero books I own anymore are for Champions 4e, which I plan on keeping forever. I really do hope Hero Games can recapture the magic with a newer version of that.

Quote from: The Butcher;567965So, as someone who played a bit of 4e a long time ago; whose favorite supers RPG used to be Mayfair DC Heroes 3e; and who really likes the idea behind Hero's power system... should I give this a shot?

In my opinion, Hero(Champions) has two pluses and one minus.

Plus: You can create any character you imagine; insane flexability to customize powers.
 
Plus: Clean rules that work.


Minus: Has a learning curve to overcome before you can make full use of its flexability.



I am a huge fan of Hero (Supers and Starwars; I have not used it for non suped up settings)

HERO Designer is a godsend for me and my GM to come to consensus on character builds, as we never agree on the first, second...or sixth build.

Quote from: Bill;597881In my opinion, Hero(Champions) has two pluses and one minus.

Plus: You can create any character you imagine; insane flexability to customize powers.
 
Plus: Clean rules that work.


Minus: Has a learning curve to overcome before you can make full use of its flexability.



I am a huge fan of Hero (Supers and Starwars; I have not used it for non suped up settings)

I think overall the curve is worth it.  Apparently it isn't worth it for a lot of people.  And in some respect the problem that I (and others) had with 6E is that it increased the steep of that learning curve without a commensurate increase in the rewards.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;598172I think overall the curve is worth it.  Apparently it isn't worth it for a lot of people.  And in some respect the problem that I (and others) had with 6E is that it increased the steep of that learning curve without a commensurate increase in the rewards.

JG

How is 6E steeper?

It seemed to have a few minor fixes to 5e.

Or did I miss something?

Two big hardcovers, the first of which has been out of print for over 2 years...

Quote from: Jason S. Walters;5976994) Forty Bucks (plus the PDF for free if your FLGS is a member of bits-and-mortar) is not too much for a core book. If you don't believe me, go to your local game store and have a look around.

Which books are YOU comparing to?

Quote from: kythri;598244Which books are YOU comparing to?

I have to agree here. The only $40 books I know of are hardcovers or color.

Quote from: brettmb;598251I have to agree here. The only $40 books I know of are hardcovers or color.

Armageddon from Eden Studios isn't color, and is $40.00. The art is grey scale, not B&W though. It's also 354 pages. Armed Forces, a supplement for Armageddon, costs $43.00 from Lulu in hardcover, is also gray scale, and is 382 pages.

Those are the only 2 that come to mind that I own. All the other ones range between $30.00 - $35.00

Quote from: urbwar;598394Armageddon from Eden Studios isn't color, and is $40.00. The art is grey scale, not B&W though. It's also 354 pages. Armed Forces, a supplement for Armageddon, costs $43.00 from Lulu in hardcover, is also gray scale, and is 382 pages.

Those are the only 2 that come to mind that I own. All the other ones range between $30.00 - $35.00

Yeah, but Armed Forces is hardcover. My point. Is Armageddon soft or hard?

Quote from: brettmb;598398Yeah, but Armed Forces is hardcover. My point. Is Armageddon soft or hard?

Armed Forces has both hard and softcover. Armageddon is hardcover only.

I also realize I misunderstood your earlier post.

Quote from: Bill;598210How is 6E steeper?

It seemed to have a few minor fixes to 5e.

Or did I miss something?

The big thing that got me was not simply divorcing "figured" (secondary) Characteristics from Primary Characteristics, but splitting the formerly DEX-based OCV (how well you can hit) and DCV (how hard it is to hit you) into two separate stats both of which have to be bought up from a base of 3.
And doing the same thing with the formerly EGO-based Mental Combat stats.

Whatever the reasoning, the result was having to juggle more numbers and needing more points to make a character, and even though those points were provided, you get into a situation I call point inflation - where it takes more points- and therefore, more decisions and more calculation- to get a character that was basically at the standard you expected of 5th Edition.

Now, if I felt that way, and a lot of grognards felt that way, you can imagine how all the point-buy haters on this site and The Banning Place would feel about having to navigate new Hero for the first time having no practical experience with the earlier editions.

As I've said elsewhere, I have no respect for the opinion "Hero System requires a Ph.D in math."  I CAN respect the opinion "I COULD do all this math, but I shouldn't HAVE to."

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;598453The big thing that got me was not simply divorcing "figured" (secondary) Characteristics from Primary Characteristics, but splitting the formerly DEX-based OCV (how well you can hit) and DCV (how hard it is to hit you) into two separate stats both of which have to be bought up from a base of 3.
And doing the same thing with the formerly EGO-based Mental Combat stats.

Whatever the reasoning, the result was having to juggle more numbers and needing more points to make a character, and even though those points were provided, you get into a situation I call point inflation - where it takes more points- and therefore, more decisions and more calculation- to get a character that was basically at the standard you expected of 5th Edition.

Now, if I felt that way, and a lot of grognards felt that way, you can imagine how all the point-buy haters on this site and The Banning Place would feel about having to navigate new Hero for the first time having no practical experience with the earlier editions.

As I've said elsewhere, I have no respect for the opinion "Hero System requires a Ph.D in math."  I CAN respect the opinion "I COULD do all this math, but I shouldn't HAVE to."

JG

I am not sure I agree that seperating ocv and dcv is more math.

In fact, you no longer have to divide dex and ego by three at all.

You just buy the ocv and dcv you want, and thery do not have to be the same. Good for variety.

The 6e changes are excellent in my opinion.

I really have no interest in anything Hero does; nor can I imagine anyone new will either.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598772I really have no interest in anything Hero does; nor can I imagine anyone new will either.

RPGPundit

Except presumably anybody who saw the announcement for Derek's book and said "Hey!" :)

JG

So, as someone who just recently funded the new MHI RPG that Hero kickstarted, its got me interested in HERO as a system. I've not played Champions since 3rd edition.

This sounds like a good place to start until the MHI book is out next year.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598772I really have no interest in anything Hero does; nor can I imagine anyone new will either.

RPGPundit

You're a sour fuck, aren't you?

Quote from: RPGPundit;598772I really have no interest in anything Hero does; nor can I imagine anyone new will either.

While I believe that it wont' be wildly popular there is always going to be a subset of gamers that systems like Hero and GURPS will appeal to. The main problem is they both took the idea of being a generic toolkit to an unnecessary extreme. Which alienated 3/4 of those gamers. They want to play a complete RPG and not have to build one themselves. This caused Hero Games and GURPS to decline to decline in comparison to their competition. And compounded with the smaller RPG market this was a very bad things for both games.

Math heavy, tactically detailed system are not going to be appealing as Fate/Fudge, Savage Worlds to do it yourselfers.  By releasing the all in one Champions RPG book, Hero Games returned to what made the game so great. A complete RPG where you can make any type of superhero with a lot of details. With the added bonus of being able to mix and match other genres in the Hero System.

Now if only GURPS would do the same.

Quote from: estar;598813Now if only GURPS would do the same.

I would buy GURPS Banestorm Complete in a heartbeat

They also need to support their settings better...

but thats just me...

Long time Hero System player here.

I think the campaign books that came out for Hero 5 were the best they'd ever done.  I know a lot of people love the Big Blue Book of Hero 4 but for me, 5 was the sweet spot and Star Hero, Fantasy Hero etc. for Hero 5 (which would totally work with 4 or even 3, mind you - that's the beauty of Hero system up thru version 5) were amazing.  I always thought the Hero 4 genre books were just blah.  F'rex I think the ball was badly dropped on Robot Warrior - so much potential, wasted.

This..."Hero 6.5", if you will, seems intriguing.  But I'll stick with 5 as the ultimate version for me.

With that said, let me also say that the sales numbers listed do my heart a great deal of good and of course knock Pundit's statement into a cocked hat.  It wasn't that long ago that a company could sell 5000 of any given RPG book and it be a runaway success but to know Hero can still move 30k copies does my heart well.  At $30 a copy that's very nearly a million bucks and that ain't bad.

From a psychological standpoint, 4e had a lot of "chunking" which was basically undone by 6e. 5e was already showing too many bolts for straightforward builds. Uncoupling the secondary characteristics in 6e just worsened the problem. You went from having a half dozen sets of numbers with 5-10 entries, and a dozen poowers and skills, to a large number of primary characteristics with little organization and hugely detailed power writeups. Also, Steve Long is a writing machine, but he definitely did not play Hero the way I did.

I'm cautiously interested in the book, but the price does seem high for a small softcover book. If that's the pricing reality, why not just go print-on-demand?

Quote from: pawsplay;599066From a psychological standpoint, 4e had a lot of "chunking" which was basically undone by 6e. 5e was already showing too many bolts for straightforward builds. Uncoupling the secondary characteristics in 6e just worsened the problem.

Spot on analysis. I'm also a long-time Hero player who wants to like 6e (and owns it) but the lack of said "chunking" means it is pretty tough going.

Take the 1200 pages of Hero 6e Vols 1,2 and Fantasy Hero. Forge a set of campaign guidelines specific to your campaign. It will be awesome but you will have produced a small book in addition to all of those rules.

Quote from: pawsplay;599066From a psychological standpoint, 4e had a lot of "chunking"

What does "chunking" mean in the context of RPG design?

The thing is, aside from being an awful, overly complex point-buy system, HERO (Champions) was actually godawful at effectively emulating the superhero genre.  That's the sin that's unforgivable to me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;599309The thing is, aside from being an awful, overly complex point-buy system, HERO (Champions) was actually godawful at effectively emulating the superhero genre.  That's the sin that's unforgivable to me.

RPGPundit

And, yet, there are thousands of Champions players who think it does a great job of emulating the superhero genre.

Imagine that- different opinions.

There's a simple answer to that: they're wrong.  The system focuses on the wrong things.

RPGPundit

Wrong, I tell you!

WRONG!!!!

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;599431good to see them publishing

classless games I have never tried, it sounds like a powergamers dream come true

Not really. Hero has been gone over with a fine tooth comb and it's very hard for an ambitious player to game the system.

For better or worse, Hero works in that respect. It's balanced. Not to the ultimate, but robustly.

And to Pundit: Champions emulates comics like DnD emulates Leiber, and Tolkein. In other words it hits some of the same notes but plays out as its own thing. That's what RPGs are to me. Not attempts to be other media, but something distinct.

Quote from: RPGPundit;599404There's a simple answer to that: they're wrong.  The system focuses on the wrong things.

RPGPundit

Well we have to disagree. What appealed about the Hero system back in the day and was does now is it flexibility in allowing you to be build the exact type of hero complete with game stats.

I get where you are coming from, this long been a dispute in super-hero RPGs going back to its first days.

To me Champions always feels like the natural way to player superheroes as an RPG. Icons, Marvel Superheroes always felt too well fuzzy for my taste.

Mind you, I really don't think any supers game started to things right until very very recently, and the first rpg to really do things excellently is ICONS.

So its not against HERO/Champions in particular in that sense of the emulation argument; I'd say the same thing about mutants & masterminds, Silver Age Sentinels, Heroes Unlimited, the DC and Marvel games, etc.
Of course, when you go into mechanics, I think Champions is also very much on the lower half of that bad bunch.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;599476And to Pundit: Champions emulates comics like DnD emulates Leiber, and Tolkein. In other words it hits some of the same notes but plays out as its own thing. That's what RPGs are to me. Not attempts to be other media, but something distinct.

With the Knockback and barrier rules, you get a lot of mindless property damage, and if that isn't superhero genre simulation, I don't know what is.

JG

ICONS does it better, where the central feature is not what points you've put into what kind of clever attack, but how you are representing the key traits of your character (and note, "can fly and fire energy bolts" is not what I mean by key traits).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;599839ICONS does it better, where the central feature is not what points you've put into what kind of clever attack, but how you are representing the key traits of your character (and note, "can fly and fire energy bolts" is not what I mean by key traits).

There's a lot Fate gets wrong, but Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. (Which is why I'm using them in my own little action-movie RPG.)

What about them do you think ICONS did right?

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;599871ok so how does it work
How do you keep powergamers from making death machine characters without much weakness?

You have limited points to build a character.

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;599871ok so how does it work
How do you keep powergamers from making death machine characters without much weakness?

Basically a bunch of little things that persuades them to play the game as a comic book rather than just a personal power fantasy.

For example
I require players to describe their characters first then find the mechanics that fit that description.

I will and have vetoed builds as exploiting known Hero System loop holes.

I been playing Hero System in various forms for 30 years and the player know it.

It is primarily an issue of communication and effective teaching. The object of which is to show them how much more interesting and fun RPGs are when you play them as if your character was really there rather than just as a game to be mastered.

The biggest issue I run across isn't power gaming but rather getting across the idea that while the Hero System can allow just about any type of character the fact we start at X point level means they won't be able to do everything they want. At First.  

Also that while Hero System is flexible it is not infinitely flexible so your powers will be close but not exact. Most players accept this when I point out the different origin stories where the hero was exploring how his powers work. While Marvel and DC share a lot of common elements, details work differently for the same power.  The same with my comic book universe.  But now and again I get the player who just won't accept that.

The most recent was a guy who wanted to make a hero that had powers that worked by stealing kinetic energy. He expected to have a bunch of side effects and just couldn't get it into his head that he needed to factor all that in his powers. They don't come for free. It didn't helped he wasn't very forthcoming on explaining the specifics of what he was looking to do despite my repeated attempts get more details. It got the point where his best friend stepped in and told him stop being a prick about it.

Quote from: estar;598813The main problem is they both took the idea of being a generic toolkit to an unnecessary extreme. Which alienated 3/4 of those gamers. They want to play a complete RPG and not have to build one themselves. This caused Hero Games and GURPS to decline to decline in comparison to their competition. And compounded with the smaller RPG market this was a very bad things for both games.

I may have to agree with this.  Enough with the giant GURPS and HERO core books.  You don't see gamers flocking to them or the BRP core book do you?  No.  They flock to the Call of Cthulhu and Gaslight books.  If they do flock to a core book, it's something lite-ish like Savage Worlds' small format book.

Just make a game book called Champions.  Don't even mention HERO on the cover.  Just make a game book called Space 2889.  Don't even mention GURPS on the cover.

But this all academic anyway.  PDF's and iPad-like app readers are all the rage now.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;598849I would buy GURPS Banestorm Complete in a heartbeat.

Ooh.  Good pick.

Quote from: RPGPundit;599404There's a simple answer to that: they're wrong.  The system focuses on the wrong things.

RPGPundit

I'm mixed on the supers genre.  I would like to GM a supers game.  But I don't yet know whether to run the campaign as a comicbook framed page, a comicbook world, or as a real-world with super-powered characters in it?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;599915I'm mixed on the supers genre.  I would like to GM a supers game.  But I don't yet know whether to run the campaign as a comicbook framed page, a comicbook world, or as a real-world with super-powered characters in it?

I don't gm Supers any differently than swords and sorcery fantasy.

A dnd wizard with fly, fireball, and fireshield is not all that different than the human torch.

People may roast me for saying it, but I dont think trying to gm a supers game 'like a comic book' is particularly fun.



I am a huge comic book fan, by the way.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599843There's a lot Fate gets wrong, but Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. (Which is why I'm using them in my own little action-movie RPG.)

What about them do you think ICONS did right?

That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building; that the emphasis is not on the powers but on the defining characteristics of the hero, that the mechanics are an actual effort to emulate what happens in comics.

RPGPundit

Quote from: estar;599895Basically a bunch of little things that persuades them to play the game as a comic book rather than just a personal power fantasy.

For example
I require players to describe their characters first then find the mechanics that fit that description.

I will and have vetoed builds as exploiting known Hero System loop holes.

I been playing Hero System in various forms for 30 years and the player know it.

It is primarily an issue of communication and effective teaching. The object of which is to show them how much more interesting and fun RPGs are when you play them as if your character was really there rather than just as a game to be mastered.

The biggest issue I run across isn't power gaming but rather getting across the idea that while the Hero System can allow just about any type of character the fact we start at X point level means they won't be able to do everything they want. At First.  

Also that while Hero System is flexible it is not infinitely flexible so your powers will be close but not exact. Most players accept this when I point out the different origin stories where the hero was exploring how his powers work. While Marvel and DC share a lot of common elements, details work differently for the same power.  The same with my comic book universe.  But now and again I get the player who just won't accept that.

The most recent was a guy who wanted to make a hero that had powers that worked by stealing kinetic energy. He expected to have a bunch of side effects and just couldn't get it into his head that he needed to factor all that in his powers. They don't come for free. It didn't helped he wasn't very forthcoming on explaining the specifics of what he was looking to do despite my repeated attempts get more details. It got the point where his best friend stepped in and told him stop being a prick about it.

It IS in fact, very good at simulating the superhero theme "Responsibility of Power."  Because if the PLAYER doesn't have any such sense of responsibility, then the GM has to teach it to him.  :p

JG

Quote from: RPGPundit;600113That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building; that the emphasis is not on the powers but on the defining characteristics of the hero, that the mechanics are an actual effort to emulate what happens in comics.

RPGPundit

I realize this is dragging things further off topic but, based on this, Pundit, I think you might want to check out Capes Cowls and Villains Foul.  I think it does most of this better than ICONS.  But if someone thinks "emulating a comic book" is not a worthwhile goal, then feel free to stay away.

Quote from: RPGPundit;600113

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;599843Aspects and most of how they're used are done very, very right. What about them do you think ICONS did right?

That there isn't a pointbuy system that focuses on power-building;

I was asking specifically about Aspects. Those seem to be the focus of your admiration for ICONS, I was wondering what about Aspects you find superior to the standard Fate implementation.

Also, re: Retcons. Isn't that the kind of Narrativist mechanic that you find aggravating? What about ICONS makes you overlook it?

(This isn't an argument, BTW. I find Declarations and other "players write the world" mechanics to be wrong-headed, IMHO. They make the game world malleable for players, less real. I prefer a more traditional approach (http://daddywarpig.wordpress.com/2012/09/23/destiny-is-not-a-story-game/).)

Quote from: drkrash;600350I realize this is dragging things further off topic but, based on this, Pundit, I think you might want to check out Capes Cowls and Villains Foul.  I think it does most of this better than ICONS.  But if someone thinks "emulating a comic book" is not a worthwhile goal, then feel free to stay away.

They could always send me a review copy; but for the moment I'm pretty satisfied with ICONS.

RPGPundit

Well I tend to agree with most of you and the rest of you I dis-agree with.  As I own every Supers game known to man almost or owned at one time or another.