Quote from: robiswrong;701030Not arguing that at all.  I'm looking at two separate aspects of character creation in HERO:

1) The stats on the sheet at the end of the process
2) The process of spending points and adjusting things to buy those stats

What I'm asking as a kind of thought exercise (more than anything else) is:

What is the purpose of the point buy exercise, as opposed to simply saying what abilities you want?

I can see two possible reasons:

1) Balance
2) Providing an interesting character build system as a subgame of its own

If balance is the reason, and the point buy system does not provide it (to the extent that GM approval of characters is *still* generally required), then is it adding anything?  Would anything really be changed by just getting rid of the point buy mechanics, given that the GM *already* has to be in the position of ensuring that a character's power level fits well within the game?

If providing an interesting character build 'subgame' is the point, it does it well.

I'm not actually *criticizing* the HERO system here, BTW.  More of a thought experiment.



Indeed.  And you could do that whether powers were bought with points, or whether they were just 'declared'.



Terrible example - I find the 3.x games to be the *most* charop abusable games of any I've played.  One of the reasons I don't play 3.x is that I moved away from GURPS for simplicity and to get away from charop wankery, and found instead that 3.x was even worse.  Since I generally prefer a lot of the things that GURPS does compared to 3.x, if I have to deal with the charop crap, I'd rather stick with GURPS.

(And yes, the same arguments about point buy *do* apply to GURPS as well)

The problem with charop is the players, not the system.

Charoping is a choice.


The difference between hero and 3x dnd for me, is that hero lets you create the character you want, and once the character exists, the game system is just better mechanically during play.

I was also considering buying into Hero lately.
After some talking about it on a german forum, i am not so sure anymore. And this thread gave me some more to think about.

What i do not like, at all, is the weird starting values for skills via division of attribute values. This is much more elegant and reasonable in GURPS (where the attribute is the roll-under value for a skill you have taken at +0).

If you have to divide your attribute by 5 this means you have a lot of range that is exactly the same competence (for example the results from 1.6 to 2.4 yield the exact same skill competence -> roll 11 or under). Why on earth do you not collapse the scale in this instance? It's kind of weird if the guy with dex 8 is as good as i am with dex 12.

Anyway, i freely admit i am a noob in GURPS as much as in Hero. So i don't know if GURPS has the upper hand or not (maybe that'd be an interesting topic for an own thread).

I think (THINK) it's for cost reasons.  E.g. the steps between 5 and 10 don't matter mechanically, but you have to buy each one.  Leaving them granular lets you work slowly towards the improvement rather than having to save up and buy it all at once.  It's like making payments.

Quote from: Anglachel;701183What i do not like, at all, is the weird starting values for skills via division of attribute values. This is much more elegant and reasonable in GURPS (where the attribute is the roll-under value for a skill you have taken at +0).

If you have to divide your attribute by 5 this means you have a lot of range that is exactly the same competence (for example the results from 1.6 to 2.4 yield the exact same skill competence -> roll 11 or under). Why on earth do you not collapse the scale in this instance?

Both Hero and GURPS use the idea that the normal human scale for attributes has a similar range - roughly 3 to 18 in GURPS, and 0 to 20 in Hero.

However, GURPS makes attributes incredibly important. Characters will often spend over half their points in their attributes, because having a high attribute is absolutely vital.

Hero makes the points spent in skills to be more important. An expert character will spend most of their points on the skills of their expertise, and less than 10% on raw intelligence.

I prefer the Hero approach because it differentiates characters more. In GURPS, a bookish sage with high IQ can trivially become an expert outdoorsman and tracker with just a few XP. In Hero, the outdoorsman and the sage are differentiated more.

Quote from: daniel_ream;700710COM costs half a point per point of COM, but has no mechanical function in the system.  At all.  Anywhere.  If you don't care about how you look, you can buy it down to 0 and get a free five points.

It provides a Complimentary roll to Interaction skills (Seduction, Conversation, etc)

Edit: in Fourth through Fifth Edition anyway. It was dropping as an attribute in sixth.

Quote from: Novastar;700720And the inevitable fights over how to build something.

(I.e. when I started, I made a character that was a fighter pilot, so while in a vehicle, he increases the Defensive Value. Now, I figured since it only increased his DCV while in a vehicle, it gets a disadvantage, and I can buy it at reduced cost. Wrong. Since it's "affecting an outside entity", you have to buy a number of expensive advantages, which greatly increases the cost. My +2 DCV in a plane went from 7 points to 37 points, IIRC. It was cheaper to become a Kung-Fu Master, than make the plane a little harder to hit.)

Novastar:
Here you go...

Instinctive Pilot: The Pilot is able, on a subconscious level, to fly in and out of a hail of gunfire or the heaviest of enemy flack and come out without a scratch.

Here is the Build:
Instinctive Pilot: +2 DCV, Usable By Other (Any Vehicle of up to 50 Tons; +2 ½) (35 Active Points); Only For An Aircraft Character Is Flying (-2), Requires a Combat Pilot Roll (-1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4). Total 11 Active Points


The DCV can be increased if you want, but as you can see this costs 11 points in the end (ie: Active Points).  If a character were to buy +2 DCV just for themselves, then it would cost 10 Active Points.  So for a cost of +1 character point, the character can fly his fighter in between bullets & flack (or whatever).



I've been gaming for 35 years now, and there are not too many RPGs that I haven't played.  People look at one game and see complexity while others don't.  For example, some look at d20 (3.x & 4) and see a lot of options and streamlining, while others see pigeonholing and over complication.  The same can go for almost any game system.

"Sigh"  I've seen to many "This System Sux" or "This Edition Sux" comments & flame wars, when usually it comes down to what people are used to.  My personal preference is for my players to have fun, and that is how I have fun. If they aren't having fun, then no Game System is going to help with that.

I wish that we could all get together somewhere over a drink (Coke, Soda, Beer, whatever) and talk...it would make things a whole lot easier.

Peace.


~ M

Quote from: mcbobbo;701055I think this is pretty important, too, because all the players use the same set of rules to create characters.  So when jealousy happens you get to point to the pricing for the powers and the reasoning that went into that.

(Nod)  Spot on.  Fairness between Characters is important.  It doesn't matter if each character starts off "Low," "Medium," "High," or "God-Like" in power level.  What matters is that they all start off that way...at least in most games.  Some exceptions do exist -- and if you complain, then the Computer will know that you are a Commie Mutie!

Umm...sorry, had to take my Happy Pill there.

Honestly though, fairness between the characters is important.  Without it, the fun goes right out the window.  Start one character at "High" and the others at "Low" and see what happens.


~ M

Quote from: Nexus;701284It provides a Complimentary roll to Interaction skills (Seduction, Conversation, etc)

Edit: in Fourth through Fifth Edition anyway. It was dropping as an attribute in sixth.

Quote from: Bill;701008Yes.

There is a power called Faster than light travel, and for a character like the Flash, you would buy FTL travel with a disadvantage "Must run along a surface" or something like that.

It would be mainly for movement.

No...no FTL in the Atmosphere.  Only in Space.  For "Fast Movement" you would use Megascale.

~ M

Quote from: Endless Flight;701010So could he use that in combat too? Like to add to his defenses?

Yes. No FTL (Faster Than Light), which can only be used in space, but in the Hero System there is an Advantage called Megascale (Increases the Range/Area/etc tremendously depending upon how large the Megascale Advantage is).

Yes on the Use in Combat.  You make your Character the way you want, with input from the GM.  In this case a bonus to Combat Value, Only While Using Hyper Running Power (-1/2 Limitation ) - which effectively makes each +1 Combat Value cheaper...though you can only using them them while running.

Like all games, there is a learning curve.  If there are gamers in your area who know the system, then hook up with them and have some fun learning it (just like any system).  If not, and if you're interested, then ask around -- people can give you advise and when (if) you make the plunge, then there is help here and over at the Hero Forums.

Peace.


~ N

Quote from: Nadrakas;701334Novastar:
Here you go...

Instinctive Pilot: The Pilot is able, on a subconscious level, to fly in and out of a hail of gunfire or the heaviest of enemy flack and come out without a scratch.

Here is the Build:
Instinctive Pilot: +2 DCV, Usable By Other (Any Vehicle of up to 50 Tons; +2 ½) (35 Active Points); Only For An Aircraft Character Is Flying (-2), Requires a Combat Pilot Roll (-1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4). Total 11 Active Points


The DCV can be increased if you want, but as you can see this costs 11 points in the end (ie: Active Points).  If a character were to buy +2 DCV just for themselves, then it would cost 10 Active Points.  So for a cost of +1 character point, the character can fly his fighter in between bullets & flack (or whatever).



I've been gaming for 35 years now, and there are not too many RPGs that I haven't played.  People look at one game and see complexity while others don't.  For example, some look at d20 (3.x & 4) and see a lot of options and streamlining, while others see pigeonholing and over complication.  The same can go for almost any game system.

"Sigh"  I've seen to many "This System Sux" or "This Edition Sux" comments & flame wars, when usually it comes down to what people are used to.  My personal preference is for my players to have fun, and that is how I have fun. If they aren't having fun, then no Game System is going to help with that.

I wish that we could all get together somewhere over a drink (Coke, Soda, Beer, whatever) and talk...it would make things a whole lot easier.

Peace.


~ M

Nah, that all would make too much sense.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;701342Nah, that all would make too much sense.

JG

Sad, but true.  I remember meeting with many gamers over the years at Denny's (and other laaaaate night restaurants.  Or at the local B&M, many of which are disappearing ) and shooting the breeze.  Not all of them were in my group -- in fact, many weren't.  That was a blast.

"Sigh"...I'm getting too olde.


~ M

Now every system has its fans and its critics. And that's okay, we are all different people and we all like different things. Ive tried several different systems and HERO is my favorite. The math and complexity don't bother me, I find the freedom and choice inspire me and allow to me imagine anything I want to and build it into a system, and as a game it plays really well for me.

But that's just me.

One thing i do find telling about all the arguments here so far is that they, almost exclusively, about character creation. And while I will definitely agree that character creation is more complex, more time consuming, and more "mathy" than most other systems out there the simple fact of the matter is that unless something is REALLY going wrong in your play group even if it takes you several HOURS to create a character (and it should take less than one once your comfortable with the system) that should represent a VERY small portion of time. Even if it takes you 4 hours to create a character (and to note my 8 yr old nephew can create one in under 2) if you are in a good group you should get DOZENS of hours of playtime out of that character, and yet there are almost no arguments here (or in most such posts that I have read) that deal with how the game PLAYS.

And frankly gameplay is far more important than character creation in ANY system if you plan to actually play it. There are literally hundreds of characters available in published sources, online, etc and trust me a simple request on the hero forums would have someone generate any kind of character you could want if you dont want to do it yourself. So where is the discussion on the REST of the time investment in this system?

Quote from: Nadrakas;701334Novastar:
Here you go...
{HERO Build]}

If the GM had been willing to work with me to get what you posted, I wouldn't be still all butthurt about it, nearly a decade later.

He simply would not allow me to buy the +2 DCV power for less than 27 points. No argument would sway him. And that's the problem with Point Buys; they really on an impartial Judge, and few of us are.

(He really believed that +2 DCV was worth 27 points. I didn't. I changed the build on my character, and life went on. I didn't stop playing with him, didn't flip the table, or some other kind of spectacular flip-out. We just didn't agree, and moved on from it.)

But IMHO, Point-Buy's foster more favoritism and CharOp than traditional RPG's.

EDIT: psyber624, I found the HERO CharGen program a blessing, for making HERO characters. I doubt I would have given HERO a try, if the GM hadn't shown me how easy it was to build characters on it (I was impressed enough to buy it the next day).

Quote from: Novastar;701354If the GM had been willing to work with me to get what you posted, I wouldn't be still all butthurt about it, nearly a decade later.

He simply would not allow me to buy the +2 DCV power for less than 27 points. No argument would sway him. And that's the problem with Point Buys; they really on an impartial Judge, and few of us are.

(He really believed that +2 DCV was worth 27 points. I didn't. I changed the build on my character, and life went on. I didn't stop playing with him, didn't flip the table, or some other kind of spectacular flip-out. We just didn't agree, and moved on from it.)

But IMHO, Point-Buy's foster more favoritism and CharOp than traditional RPG's.

EDIT: psyber624, I found the HERO CharGen program a blessing, for making HERO characters. I doubt I would have given HERO a try, if the GM hadn't shown me how easy it was to build characters on it (I was impressed enough to buy it the next day).

I get what you're saying. Unfortunately I've seen favoritism in every game, no matter the system.  IMO point-buy systems don't foster them any more than CharOp ones...Bad GMs/DMs do.  This is where an open dialogue between everyone at the "table" is important.  I've gotten up and walked out in the middle of games where overt favoritism was happening -- at least after it was brought up and discussed by the players.

I won't "second guess" that particular GM, but I will say that there is always more than one way to do things in every RPG.  I hope you're still playing Hero, or if you're not that you might give it a try again.

I don't know...after playing for so long (and making a whole lot of mistakes), I tend to ere on the side of fun for the players.  If a person comes up with an interesting character - and it doesn't run roughshod over other characters (ie: "I'm playing a Half-Vampire, Half-Werewolf, Half-Mage, Half-Fae, Full-Cyborg, with Force Powers!  Isn't that Coooooollll!" -- yeah...this came up with a "walk-in" player years ago...um no...).  Anyway, everyone should have fun, and character creation can be fun if done right.

Peace.


~ M

Good points. Hero doesn't come off well in forums, because it plays differently than how it reads.

Quote from: psyber624;701347Now every system has its fans and its critics. And that's okay, we are all different people and we all like different things. Ive tried several different systems and HERO is my favorite. The math and complexity don't bother me, I find the freedom and choice inspire me and allow to me imagine anything I want to and build it into a system, and as a game it plays really well for me.

But that's just me.

One thing i do find telling about all the arguments here so far is that they, almost exclusively, about character creation. And while I will definitely agree that character creation is more complex, more time consuming, and more "mathy" than most other systems out there the simple fact of the matter is that unless something is REALLY going wrong in your play group even if it takes you several HOURS to create a character (and it should take less than one once your comfortable with the system) that should represent a VERY small portion of time. Even if it takes you 4 hours to create a character (and to note my 8 yr old nephew can create one in under 2) if you are in a good group you should get DOZENS of hours of playtime out of that character, and yet there are almost no arguments here (or in most such posts that I have read) that deal with how the game PLAYS.

And frankly gameplay is far more important than character creation in ANY system if you plan to actually play it. There are literally hundreds of characters available in published sources, online, etc and trust me a simple request on the hero forums would have someone generate any kind of character you could want if you dont want to do it yourself. So where is the discussion on the REST of the time investment in this system?