Quote from: The_Shadow;4934114th edition? Came out in 1989, I believe. Since then there's been 5th and 6th which have rectified the problem. So what you're saying is kind of like lambasting D&D for having race-as-class.

In his defense race-as-class was such a dumb idea it is worthy of being lambasted even at this point. And any supers game that can't emulate Spider-man is equally at fault.

Quote from: Tetsubo;493415In his defense race-as-class was such a dumb idea it is worthy of being lambasted even at this point. And any supers game that can't emulate Spider-man is equally at fault.

Give me scatological invective, that I can take. Give me crudity and ad hominems! At least then I would know I was at the RPGsite. But this?  I think I'll go to some UFO forum where the folks are no doubt a little more logical. Weak sauce, sir, weak sauce.

I'm out.

Just checked and as of 5th ed, you still can't do it.  There's no simple way to have a line connecting you to an Entangled target. (The funniest way of modelling this I've ever seen was a heavily Limited Telekinesis Linked to the Entangle, Limited to current STR, only for pulling towards the character, Manifests as a 4 DEF 4 BODY line that can be cut, etc., etc....)

It derives from the fact that Champions at its heart is a tactical superhero wargame that lets you build your own attacks and defenses.  Champions has real problems with superpower concepts that can be described simply but have a lot of potential utility (like a grappling hook), because the system requires you to buy each thing you can do with your superpower as a separate effect, and the list of effects isn't quite large enough to handle superpower concepts that were common and popular even at the time the game debuted.

For many ex-Champions players I know, the Last Straw came when every single character had a Variable Power Pool to handle the clever things people might think of to do with their power.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493470Just checked and as of 5th ed, you still can't do it.  There's no simple way to have a line connecting you to an Entangled target. (The funniest way of modelling this I've ever seen was a heavily Limited Telekinesis Linked to the Entangle, Limited to current STR, only for pulling towards the character, Manifests as a 4 DEF 4 BODY line that can be cut, etc., etc....)

It derives from the fact that Champions at its heart is a tactical superhero wargame that lets you build your own attacks and defenses.  Champions has real problems with superpower concepts that can be described simply but have a lot of potential utility (like a grappling hook), because the system requires you to buy each thing you can do with your superpower as a separate effect, and the list of effects isn't quite large enough to handle superpower concepts that were common and popular even at the time the game debuted.

For many ex-Champions players I know, the Last Straw came when every single character had a Variable Power Pool to handle the clever things people might think of to do with their power.

Swinging is in Hero System.
Entange, Attached To Webline Character Can Pull On (+1/4)
And I have no idea where you got the idea that new powers, advantages and limitations can't be added to Hero System. So far, for Hero System, just about every book has introduced a few minor modifiers and there's been two Advanced Player's Guides that have introduced whole new mechanics.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493252I guess accelerating at five meters per meter isn't proper acceleration. (Seriously)

OTOH, using Flight as acceleration works well enough. Mass can be reperesented with a customer adder and custom multiplier, which results in even bigger ships with higher point totals going slower.

It is awkward, though.

Mass isn't the issue; the issue is that if I have 20" of flight, in phase 1, I'm declaring and moving up to 20" (40" noncombat).  Period.  I do not have to accelerate to that speed, I just am moving that fast.  I don't have to spend phase 1 moving from 0" to 5" of flight, then in phase 2 (or whichever phase I go on next) I'm now moving that squared, etc.  I am just moving at whatever speed (be it flight, walking, running, swimming etc.) from a dead standstill.

Note: this is not an enormous problem as my favorite RPG of all time* has far, far worse "problems"  so please don't think I'm system-warring here.


...

*=AD&D 1e.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;493472Mass isn't the issue; the issue is that if I have 20" of flight, in phase 1, I'm declaring and moving up to 20" (40" noncombat).  Period.  I do not have to accelerate to that speed, I just am moving that fast.  I don't have to spend phase 1 moving from 0" to 5" of flight, then in phase 2 (or whichever phase I go on next) I'm now moving that squared, etc.  I am just moving at whatever speed (be it flight, walking, running, swimming etc.) from a dead standstill.

Note: this is not an enormous problem as my favorite RPG of all time* has far, far worse "problems"  so please don't think I'm system-warring here.


...

*=AD&D 1e.

As I stated in that post, you do accelerate - At 5 meters per meter. It's not a very sensical acceleration, but you do accelerate/decelerate.

And if it does bother you - "Acceleration is limited to 5m per Phase -1/2".

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493471Swinging is in Hero System.
Entange, Attached To Webline Character Can Pull On (+1/4)
And I have no idea where you got the idea that new powers, advantages and limitations can't be added to Hero System.

The ability to reach out and bring things to you is explicitly the domain of Stretching (more generally, Telekinesis).  And up until 4th ed, it was Word of God that if there was more than one way to build a specific Power, you were supposed to choose the most expensive one.

I never said they can't be added; I said that the designers got into a mindset that they didn't need to be, because "the system was perfect and complete as it stood".  Even though some editions had guidelines for making up new powers, the writers were clear that You Should Not Do This.  That attitude pervaded the community of writers and designers around the game; I've been told by more than one freelancer that they were explicitly told they could not make up new Powers or Advantages when writing supplements for the game, they had to use the core RAW.  cf. Mystic Masters.

Of course anyone can add new Powers to any RPG, super- or otherwise.  But if the answer to any "how do I build this superpower when there's no rules for it" is always "It Just Works Like This (+1/4)", then why did I need that kevlar vest of a gamebook?

It would be one thing if we were talking about weird corner cases or things that aren't really superhero comic book tropes.  But we're not.  We're talking things that were right there on the newsstand when Champions came out.

OT, I asked this in the Supers thread, but got no reply. Narf (or anyone) stat blocks aside, do you have an opinion on the 5e supps Monster Island and Hidden Lands?

Question #2 is their a conversion guide for Champions--> Marvel FASRIP (I'm actually looking to use ICONS, but it is very similar to FASRIP in that it has 1-10 scale so anything converted over from one system could easily work with the other.  Basically, I just need to understand the relative power level of stuff in Champions, I can fudge the rest. (It's been too long since I played it and I remember nothing).

Quote from: daniel_ream;493481The ability to reach out and bring things to you is explicitly the domain of Stretching (more generally, Telekinesis).  And up until 4th ed, it was Word of God that if there was more than one way to build a specific Power, you were supposed to choose the most expensive one.

I never said they can't be added; I said that the designers got into a mindset that they didn't need to be, because "the system was perfect and complete as it stood".  Even though some editions had guidelines for making up new powers, the writers were clear that You Should Not Do This.  That attitude pervaded the community of writers and designers around the game; I've been told by more than one freelancer that they were explicitly told they could not make up new Powers or Advantages when writing supplements for the game, they had to use the core RAW.  cf. Mystic Masters.

Of course anyone can add new Powers to any RPG, super- or otherwise.  But if the answer to any "how do I build this superpower when there's no rules for it" is always "It Just Works Like This (+1/4)", then why did I need that kevlar vest of a gamebook?

It would be one thing if we were talking about weird corner cases or things that aren't really superhero comic book tropes.  But we're not.  We're talking things that were right there on the newsstand when Champions came out.

Again, 4th Edition was two editions ago.

Again, custom modifiers are part of the base mechanics. And the huge rulebooks are there so that most situations are covered - Perhaps more estensively than they need, but covered nonetheless.

I say "most", but I've yet to see something (where I know what that something is), where I can't emulate it in Hero System without prohibitive trouble.

As to "Spirit" in Hero System, in 6th Edition, that's only tangentally covered in the rulebooks, under "Transform", which details a "Spiritual" version of Transform. This is because the rulebooks, being generic, do not, in general, cover things that should be covered in specific by your setting.

I shall consider your current complaints answered, unless you add something substantial to them.

Quote from: Aos;493484OT, I asked this in the Supers thread, but got no reply. Narf (or anyone) stat blocks aside, do you have an opinion on the 5e supps Monster Island and Hidden Lands?

Question #2 is their a conversion guide for Champions--> Marvel FASRIP (I'm actually looking to use ICONS, but it is very similar to FASRIP in that it has 1-10 scale so anything converted over from one system could easily work with the other.  Basically, I just need to understand the relative power level of stuff in Champions, I can fudge the rest. (It's been too long since I played it and I remember nothing).

Unfortunately for that question, I own neither of those, sorry.

I'm not aware of any. That, of course, doesn't mean there isn't one. Possibly, someone on the Hero Games forums might know; that sounds like a question to ask in General Roleplaying.

I apologize; I get a little short-tempered when it seems like people aren't listening.

QuoteI say "most", but I've yet to see something (where I know what that something is), where I can't emulate it in Hero System without prohibitive trouble.

EDITED TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY SNARK: No need to escalate a non-issue.

If you feel like tackling them, here's some well-known problematic powers:

Soul Jar, or anything that works like it.

Similarly, Katana's katana.

Spider-Man routinely uses both webshooters on two different opponents simultaneously with no loss of effectiveness.

Spider-Man snares two punks on either side of him, then yanks and leaps into the air, causing the two punks to slam into each other as he flips out of the way.

Spider-Man snares a punk and then yanks him into a nearby wall or (better yet) another punk.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493499EDITED TO REMOVE UNNECESSARY SNARK: No need to escalate a non-issue.

If you feel like tackling them, here's some well-known problematic powers:

Soul Jar, or anything that works like it.

Similarly, Katana's katana.

Spider-Man routinely uses both webshooters on two different opponents simultaneously with no loss of effectiveness.

Spider-Man snares two punks on either side of him, then yanks and leaps into the air, causing the two punks to slam into each other as he flips out of the way.

Spider-Man snares a punk and then yanks him into a nearby wall or (better yet) another punk.

Soul Jar: I'm going to assume (since you didn't provide a definition), that you mean something that traps a soul. In that case, Transform (Person with a soul into Person without a soul; break the jar) handles it.

No definition provided for Katana's Katana; I shall Wikipedia. Ok, then, the DC Comics character's sword: Summon Specific Being +1 (Last being killed); Must Kill "Summon" first, One "Summon" At A Time. Hearing voices is handled with, perhaps, a Physical Complication, "Hears Voice Of Sword's Last Trapped Victim". Edit: Complications can be added by items, by giving the item a Side Effect that inflicts that Complication on the wielder/user.

That is exactly the kind of effect a Multiple-Power Attack (for which he would take a small OCV penalty) is for.

Multiple-Power Attack: Stretching + Grab + Grab + Throw. Possibly two throws, but one throw and SFX handles it.

Again, Multiple-Power Attack: Stretching + Grab + Throw.

I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

On the other hand, Hero definitely does have some interesting ways to structure magic by putting in requirements on how spells are built--as shown in Nystul & Allston's Spell Book for Fantasy Hero. Somewhat of a specific example can be seen in the sorcery rules for The Valdorian Age. So I'm not sure about the magic criticism.

I'm probably getting in too deep, I really don't know the system very well.

General points here:

1) I've played in lots of very successful HERO games in many genres outside of superheroes: modern-day action, pulp, space opera, hard sci-fi, fantasy, and martial arts.  I don't know about sales figures, but it seems to me that the other genres got plenty of attention and play.  So I think it qualifies as generic.

2) With a huge line of products released over nearly 30 years, the HERO System is probably in the top dozen RPG lines considered over all time - up there with GURPS and Call of Cthulhu.  It may be fading now, but it's had a hugely successful run.  

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

While many HERO system fans enjoy playing around with the power system to come up with effects - and perhaps create sped bumps for themselves, there isn't a need to come up with point values any more than in any other RPG.  Certainly in games that I played in, we didn't feel bound by the powers system more than in other RPGs.  

To be fair, there are fanatics for the system.  For example, I ran an original series Star Trek game at a convention once using the HERO system, and one of the players walked out when he heard that I hadn't written up phasers as HERO powers - they were just automatic one-shot, one-kill.  However, the other 7 players were fine with this and we had a lot of fun.  His attitude was something he brought to the game, not inherent in the rules.  

Although I've never had Spiderman per se, I've had no problems with Spiderman-like characters, who would do all sorts of tricks with their powers like what was mentioned.  (I'm not sure what the point is about sticky lines, for example.  4th edition in 1989 introduced "Swinging" as a core power, and before then it was a limited version of Flight, just like running on water and up walls.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493539I think Daniel's overall point is something I've felt (even though admittedly I haven't studied Hero too closely): the need to come up with a points value for any given power or effect not only creates unnecessary speed bumps on the way to creativity, but also leads to fictitious values that have to be handwaved instead of actually being charged against your account.

(I seem to recall something similar in GURPS where they sort of caved on Disadvantages and just recommended giving everyone more points as an option.)

I have no idea what you mean. I've never even heard of "fictitious values" on the Hero Games forum.

Unless you mean Everyman abilities? Those aren't fictitious, though; they're just free, on the principle that charging people for an 8- familiarity with Conversation is just plain silly.