Speaking of which, I managed to get my hands on a copy of Villainy Amok and judging by my so far quick skim, it is indeed awesome. My sense is that it could be revamped for icons in just a few hours.

Quote from: Aos;493117Your summary looks great, but a huge part of the complexity is hardwired into character generation, which with games like HERO is either something you love or hate.

*Shrug* For anyone who's memorized the D&D 3.5 PHB and DMG, Hero System should be easy.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493128*Shrug* For anyone who's memorized the D&D 3.5 PHB and DMG, Hero System should be easy.

That's faint praise, at best.

Well, I haven't done that, but even if I'm a dummy who couldn't play D&D 3.5*, I agree with Aos that the problem with games like Hero (and GURPS) is the complexity of character generation. Templates might help somewhat, I know GURPS introduced them, but even then I don't think they'd be so great if customization requires you to recalculate using the standard system.

And if you don't have templates, then there's a lot of work for the GM to develop them beforehand.

This is a shame, because I think the fundamentals of actually playing either game are pretty nifty. (Well, I haven't played Hero, but the way it handles stunning vs. killing damage seems neat.)

Then again, the main draw of both games originally was that "you can do anything".

What I'd like to see (but can't really be bothered to do myself) is a setting book for either game that provides an alternate character creation/experience system--something more like BRP or Talislanta/Omni--but then lets you loose with the combat/skill mechanics of Hero/GURPS.

I am also that dummy.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492930Owning the company doesn't mean you own the IP though.  The IP is a product you can sell or lease.

Novastar, I know about the IP deal, it's just that I don't think that the Champions Universe has ever really had much value as IP.  The characters in it aren't very original and there's no great plotlines to mine.  It's just a bunch of background snippets scattered through sourcebooks and kept deliberately vague so GMs can insert their own ideas.  I can't see any reason Cryptic would go after it - rather than developing it in house or hiring some actual comics writers - unless there was a fan on staff.

Cryptic's CEO, Jack Emmert, is an ex RPG author (http://rpggeek.com/rpgdesigner/4234/jack-emmert). So yeah, fan on staff.

Quote from: Aos;493130That's faint praise, at best.

Not according to the fifty million people on char-op boards!

...Ok, yeah, it is.

The template/alternate character progression system idea sounds good to me, too. I'm writing up a Fantasy Hero system + setting thing; think I should post that in game dev for reviews?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493162Not according to the fifty million people on char-op boards!

...Ok, yeah, it is.

The template/alternate character progression system idea sounds good to me, too. I'm writing up a Fantasy Hero system + setting thing; think I should post that in game dev for reviews?

Why not? At the very least I'd be interested in seeing the setting.

Quote from: Aos;493170Why not? At the very least I'd be interested in seeing the setting.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=493175#post493175 - The setting is kindof a mess at the moment, but I've made a thread.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493132Then again, the main draw of both games originally was that "you can do anything".

Not to start a flame war, but this has never actually been true.  Champions character creation system has been unable to handle a number of common superhero concepts since its initial release.  The odd thing about this is that the developers and fans seemed to develop a blind spot about this, leading to my Sapir-Whorf theory of RPG character generation.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493240Not to start a flame war, but this has never actually been true.  Champions character creation system has been unable to handle a number of common superhero concepts since its initial release.  The odd thing about this is that the developers and fans seemed to develop a blind spot about this, leading to my Sapir-Whorf theory of RPG character generation.

As I pointed out, the late summer/early autumn game of Sci-Fi horror (Aliens with touches of Lovecraftian horror plus some Event Horizon like stuff thrown in), when I was trying to "build" the ships working backwards from the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual I found out that Champions cannot "do" proper acceleration.  You can kludge it on, but ultimately it's clunky and just doesn't "feel" right in play.

That's not just for spaceships - it's everything from 25 point normals through Death Star sized monstrosities.  You're either moving at up to your maximum ability (you don't have to full move, or move all the inches you can, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it - like proper acceleration rules) or sitting still.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;493245As I pointed out, the late summer/early autumn game of Sci-Fi horror (Aliens with touches of Lovecraftian horror plus some Event Horizon like stuff thrown in), when I was trying to "build" the ships working backwards from the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual I found out that Champions cannot "do" proper acceleration.  You can kludge it on, but ultimately it's clunky and just doesn't "feel" right in play.

That's not just for spaceships - it's everything from 25 point normals through Death Star sized monstrosities.  You're either moving at up to your maximum ability (you don't have to full move, or move all the inches you can, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it - like proper acceleration rules) or sitting still.

I guess accelerating at five meters per meter isn't proper acceleration. (Seriously)

OTOH, using Flight as acceleration works well enough. Mass can be reperesented with a customer adder and custom multiplier, which results in even bigger ships with higher point totals going slower.

It is awkward, though.

So, on the other poster - What sort of superheroes can Hero not do?

Quote from: stu2000;493054Depends on whether you take it as a skill or a power.

Really, it's more of a Talent.

JG

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;493252So, on the other poster - What sort of superheroes can Hero not do?

Canonical example?  As late as 4th edition, you can't (simply) build Spider-Man.  There's no simple, reasonable cost way to build a grappling hook or sticky line.  But that's just something that requires a lot of system-mongery, not an actual full-stop-no-rules-for-this.  However, the game just has no mechanics at all for dealing with souls, spirits, or magic as something distinct from psionics, so a whole swath of characters from the comics can't be built in any way at all.  Katana, from the Outsiders, for instance.  

The root of the problem is that around Champions III, the system metastasized when the designers decided it was perfect as is and any superpower could be described by these rules.  Nobody was allowed to come up with any new Advantages or Powers.  The endgame of that philosophy was the supplement Mystic Masters, where rather than simply admit that the recommended way of creating an Astral Projection spell didn't work for the genre and make up a new one, the author proceeded to stat up a 300+ Active Point, 75 Real Point monster power out of the "approved" Powers and Advantages - and then recommend that the GM just give the power to every PC for free, since in a mystic comic book everyone has Astral Projection.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493406Canonical example?  As late as 4th edition, you can't (simply) build Spider-Man.  

4th edition? Came out in 1989, I believe. Since then there's been 5th and 6th which have rectified the problem. So what you're saying is kind of like lambasting D&D for having race-as-class.