Quote from: RPGPundit;1040423The Dark Albion softcover is $22. That's cheap.

Agreed, it certainly is.

QuoteMuch of the other stuff on this thread is undervalued, which is different.

I would agree with that and I would happily pay more for some of them. For whatever reason, they have chosen not to and I think that in lieu of the cash, they should receive our thanks and admiration.

QuoteA few are probably the right price for the amateur production they are.

Possibly, although glossy pages, full cover plates and fancy full cover page borders do not increase the worth of the book for me, personally. If the content is good, the print is legible, the layout logical and the artwork suggestive and/or inspiring, then B&W is okey dokey with me. Case in point: FH&W is one of my most treasured hardbacks. So much so, I bought one to use and one just cos.

QuoteThe point is, as nice as the free material or super-cheap material might be; if you want people to design great games there needs to be some kind of financial incentive to go to the effort of the whole production.

Absolutely. I write educational material and I have some idea of how much work is involved in the planning, writing, editing, layout process et.al.

QuoteAny book I write takes literally at least a year of my life to get made. I try to keep the books as affordable as they can reasonably be, offering softcover/hardcover options, or full-color/B&W in the case of Lords of Olympus. That's reasonable.

Asking me to spend a year of my life making an RPG and then giving it away for $2 is not.

Damn right.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040424Note that this is not a criticism of some of the books being mentioned here,  or of all the people doing the mentioning either. Rob Conley's books, for exampled, are at a reasonable price for what they are, and people pointing those out as a reasonably-priced book are not wrong. Note that his Wilderlands book is $11.99.

I don't see it as criticism and I am aware that the thread may feel like it was putting other RPG writers in a bad light, but that was not my intent and you have my apologies if the thread did that.

Perhaps an example of the opposite end of the scale may introduce some balance:

Right this minute there is a chance to buy Dark Obelisk: Berinncorte for only $120 reduced from $190. Don't worry if that is a bit out of your range, cos the PDF is a snip at $70.

Oh and you need $50 worth of Pathfinder books to run it and they strongly advise you buy FlexTale Encounter Generator (was $65 but a bargain at $40 in the sales).
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/234225/Dark-Obelisk-2-The-Mondarian-Elective-Pathfinder?src=hottest

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040424(note also that the Lion & Dragon softcover is $15.81, is a full RPG, and (no offense to Rob, or credit to myself, but rather to Dominique Crouzet) has vastly better production values, particularly in terms of art)

Mentioned that one earlier. :cool: c.f. post #19

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040424Note that this is not a criticism of some of the books being mentioned here,  or of all the people doing the mentioning either. Rob Conley's books, for exampled, are at a reasonable price for what they are, and people pointing those out as a reasonably-priced book are not wrong. Note that his Wilderlands book is $11.99.

My methodology for pricing is to take the raw cost and add roughly $5. I multiply that by 100 sales, typically $500, as a figure for my expected gross profits. And from that allocate a certain amount to art and editing (the only things I can't do for myself). If I exceed that figure like with the recent Wilderlands releases, I allocate some of that to get more art or save for more editing. In recent years it more about getting somebody to edit as I built a decent library of art that I like. I always been able to do the layout, cartography, and writing myself. I also have to allocate sums for Judges Guild royalties (when relevant) and taxes.

Typically I get between $750 to a $1,000 in my first year and then it dwindles to a steady income in the low hundreds. I could make more if I devoted more time but my job is good enough along with other demands on my time that my current pace is good enough for now.

What important isn't a specific strategy, like mine, but rather you thought it through and come up with something that doesn't leave you in the hole after the first year.

http://basicfantasy.org/

I'll start by with agreeing with Mike about Matthew. Basic Fantasy RPG has incredible production values and all the PDFs/odt (think Open Source document editor) files are free. We ran Tales from the Laughing Dragon with my group using our homebrew, and it was a lot of fun. I've talked with Matthew and given feedback on the website, and he's great to work with. BFRPG is also Open Source.

http://dwdstudios.com/

DwD Studios has good production values and reasonable prices. For $10-15 in PDF in their lite games, you get one or more game manuals and one or two adventures. I prefer their "d00 lite" games like BareBones Fantasy or CovertOps. For the OSR gamer, WhiteLies is a fun spy version. They have newer crunchier d00 game FrontierSpace. WhiteLies is, of course, under an appropriate open license. Their other games are under a Creative Commons license. (Their website might not be 100% as they just had an outage with it.)

Not too much of a cheap plug, but the entirety of the Blackmoor MMRPG episodes, back from the d20 days, is available at the Comeback Inn. - That's about 60++ RPGA-style adventures. However, while RPGA-style publications usually demand prior knowledge of the setting, most Blackmoor episodes also feature introductory material - and if they happen to do not, most info can be found on the forum, or in another of the free PDFs that we host.

That's A LOT of gaming (if a tad wee bit old-fashioned) that goes completely for free.

Quote from: EOTB;1039830OSRIC is a free PDF and the books are printed at pretty much cost.  Don't know too many places you can get an all-in-one offset print hard bound book of close to 400 pages with tons of original art for $26.

True that.  The value of Black Blade's OSRIC is definitely higher than what we charge for it, and that's intentional:  it's a $50-60 book that we price-match to the Lulu POD version (because we got a great deal from our printer).  That's our way of trying to help folks in the community keep playing 1e, and can save folks newly discovering AD&D quite a bit vs. buying the original hardcovers (much less the WotC reprints).

Allan.

Many thanks Allan. I think what you guys do is great.

Case in point: the awesome scenario The Hyqeuous Vaults is free a sa PDF on Lulu.:cool:

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040675Many thanks Allan. I think what you guys do is great.

Case in point: the awesome scenario The Hyqeuous Vaults is free a sa PDF on Lulu.:cool:

Thanks Mike!  The print version of Hyqueous Vaults features a color map on the inside cover, with the cover as a separate piece---not stapled to the booklet.  THV is also sold at cost, for $2.  

Allan.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1040423The point is, as nice as the free material or super-cheap material might be; if you want people to design great games there needs to be some kind of financial incentive to go to the effort of the whole production.

100% agree.

However, the real value of a RPG book is its use in play. If people are just reading them in the bathroom, they're expensive graphic novels.

I suspect much of the price concerns are due to games being bought then read, but not played much.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1040879I suspect much of the price concerns are due to games being bought then read, but not played much.

That's where I was at, I have a bookshelf of games (plus boxes in the garage that im trying to sell), 95% of them with the intention of playing, or at least using as source material, that were not touched after purchase. Unfortunately, its the completest in me D&D 3.0/3.5, Werewolf/WoD, Cyberpunk, Hero Games, Warhammer 1st ed, Deadlands... each one held a huge chunk of real estate on my shelves... and took a huge chunk out of my bank account...

I feel the best value comes from Basic Fantasy.  Chris Gonnerman and all the great people over at the BF community- that part's priceless.

And what is great is that all of the Basic Famtasy stuff is compatible with the OSR D&D clone of your choice!:cool:

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1040426Well, but you are not self-published, which puts you in a different basket then most of the people posted here.

True. But that also doesn't change the value of my point. The reason I can find people (usually my choice of people) who are willing to publish my games is because they know they're going to be good.

Quote from: S'mon;1040428From the buyer perspective I'm not seeing the difference? Cheap = publisher makes profit, Undervalued = published as a loss leader?

Apart from Savage Worlds at $10, another impressively cheap product is the Pathfinder Beginner Box at around $30.

Cheap= a decent price for the value of what you get.

Undervalued= The publisher is selling the product for less than it's reasonably worth

Of course, there are some products that aren't really undervalued, they're just not good.

Maze Rats is actually free, short, and amazingly fun for its size:)!

Quote from: Larsdangly;1039912No one should ever complain about the cost of table top rpgs. There are dozens of good games with core rules that can be purchased for under 20 bucks (several of which are free), and the whole idea is supposed to be that the players create most or all of the characters, settings and adventures. Any money you spend on this hobby is optional.

Hundreds of free games, not merely dozen. But yes, you're right;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1041701True. But that also doesn't change the value of my point. The reason I can find people (usually my choice of people) who are willing to publish my games is because they know they're going to be good.

Thing is, some people don't see it as a business, but rather a hobby, and if they can cover costs, or just share, that's good enough for them.  And let's face it, if you can make a profit, even if it's just the equivalent to pennies, you're one up on most of this industry.