Quote from: Kyle AaronYou cannot deny that Sorcerer or AD&D1e are much admired these days, but rarely played.

I'll deny it.

Sorcerer is often said to be a good game by those who actually play it, but confusing and ill-explained by those just reading it.

My perception of AD&D1e's reputation is that it's considered old and disorganized and uselessly outdated... except by the people actually playing it.

I don't know that my view is any more valid than yours, but it's certainly no slam-dunk "you cannot deny."

Quote from: Kyle AaronYou cannot deny that Sorcerer or AD&D1e are much admired these days, but rarely played. Exactly why that's so is very much up for discussion, and could certainly have different reasons for each game.

It's possible you're looking in places where that's the case.  I haven't seen any discussion of Sorcerer in a long time.  The only place I see any real AD&D1e discussion is Dragonsfoot or Jeff Rients blog.  In both cases I have no reason to believe those folk aren't playing it.

I definitely haven't seen anything that makes me think they're discussed much in excess of how often they're played.

And if you accept the figures WotC puts out about total #s of gamers, then the vast majority of them aren't posting on internet forums, and you have no idea what games they're playing... or talking about.

I'm talking also about gamers I know personally, or secondhand through interactions offline.

Last year, for example, I gamed with 14 different people. I met and discussed gaming with another dozen or so, and through both groups heard at length about another two dozen gamers. Previous years have similar numbers for me. It ain't scientific, but then neither is Uncle Ronny's anecdotal experience and he built a whole game theory, reputation and forum on it - whereas I'm just trying to describe my experiences in general terms, descriptive rather than prescriptive.

The ones who admire the indie games - apart from that one Burning Wheel group - just can't seem to get a game group together and keep it. They either actively scorn gamers generally as being ignorant fools, or they get a group together but then bombard them with Premise and Creative Agendas and Beliefs and so on and drive them away.

Notably, the Burning Wheel group is a very well-established group of three people, who also played over 150 sessions of Hackmaster, God knows how many of Cthulhu, several of Mage, and so on. They're also close friends outside gaming, sharing experiences of first children and so on. When you've a very well-established group of players who are close friends, I think it's a bit easier to try different sorts of games.

Most game groups I've seen are rather newer and looser than that.

The one who admire the excrutiatingly-detailed settings, the Tekumels and so on, they seem more intent on collecting books and planning the One True Perfect Campaign than playing anything.

I'd love to see more descriptions of play experiences for all these less-played games. There are a few - like Jorune - I wish I was playing myself. In my case, I set Jorune aside as a prospect for GMing because I think the true enjoyment of a very detailed setting comes when players are very into it - and because of the sorts of people I get along well with and therefore game with, I rarely get players who are going to read or listen to, remember and enjoy all that detail.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI'm talking also about gamers I know personally, or secondhand through interactions offline.

The problem with anecdotal evidence in this hobby is that two people can have wildly different experiences even when they've played with dozens or even hundreds of gamers, depending on the social circles that they move in, how they meet other gamers, and the games that they play.  That doesn't mean that your experience doesn't reflect the norm, but in the absence of more objective polling data and the presence of wildly conflicting experiences, it's difficult to tell who really represents the norm.

I already made the disclaimer about its being anecdotal experience - it's not perfect and scientific, but then neither is that of people making far grander and far-reaching claims than I do, and anyway we're just idly chatting about rpgs in a discussion forum which may disappear tomorrow, not writing doctoral theses, so I think we can be held to rather lower standards of proof.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI already made the disclaimer about its being anecdotal experience - it's not perfect and scientific, but then neither is that of people making far grander and far-reaching claims than I do, and anyway we're just idly chatting about rpgs in a discussion forum which may disappear tomorrow, not writing doctoral theses, so I think we can be held to rather lower standards of proof.

I'm not asking for proof and I'm not singling you out for this criticism.  I am simply commenting on the limited value of such anecdotal experience in this particular hobby because people rarely believe anecdotal experience that conflicts with their own anecdotal experience.  Basically, your anecdotal evidence will be convincing to someone who has similar experiences but probably not so convincing for someone with very different experiences, as several of the replies to you bear out.  That's why I tend to focus on sales as a form of success, because it's the best measure that we have in the absence of polling, though that doesn't distinguish between the games that are bought and read vs. the games that are bought and played, an important distinction to determine if a game is MARP or not.

QuoteWhereas if I sat down with Narmical or droog, they'd tell me I was wrong to want that, or just shake their heads sadly, get up from the table and walk away. Some gamers have an essentially egalitarian view of the whole thing, and some an essentially elitist view. Some like Narmical seem to think we're just naive but teachable, others like droog seem to think we're hopeless but amusing in a childlike way.

Well, you can't leave the punters hanging like that, Kyle. Now you'll have to play in a game of Sorcerer (or HQ), run by me. Hear that, RPG Site? It's a challenge.

If I was your friend — as opposed to a guy I know vaguely — we wouldn't have any problems. The thing is, I ain't. I don't even know if I like you.

Time's short when you're working and have a family. Time's definitely too short at my age to be spending it (week after week after week) with people who aren't my kind of people. Doesn't make any of them bad people (maybe I'm the bad one), it just means they're not my people.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI'm talking also about gamers I know personally, or secondhand through interactions offline.

Last year, for example, I gamed with 14 different people. I met and discussed gaming with another dozen or so, and through both groups heard at length about another two dozen gamers. Previous years have similar numbers for me. It ain't scientific, but then neither is Uncle Ronny's anecdotal experience and he built a whole game theory, reputation and forum on it - whereas I'm just trying to describe my experiences in general terms, descriptive rather than prescriptive.

The ones who admire the indie games - apart from that one Burning Wheel group - just can't seem to get a game group together and keep it. They either actively scorn gamers generally as being ignorant fools, or they get a group together but then bombard them with Premise and Creative Agendas and Beliefs and so on and drive them away.

Notably, the Burning Wheel group is a very well-established group of three people, who also played over 150 sessions of Hackmaster, God knows how many of Cthulhu, several of Mage, and so on. They're also close friends outside gaming, sharing experiences of first children and so on. When you've a very well-established group of players who are close friends, I think it's a bit easier to try different sorts of games.

Most game groups I've seen are rather newer and looser than that.

The one who admire the excrutiatingly-detailed settings, the Tekumels and so on, they seem more intent on collecting books and planning the One True Perfect Campaign than playing anything.

I'd love to see more descriptions of play experiences for all these less-played games. There are a few - like Jorune - I wish I was playing myself. In my case, I set Jorune aside as a prospect for GMing because I think the true enjoyment of a very detailed setting comes when players are very into it - and because of the sorts of people I get along well with and therefore game with, I rarely get players who are going to read or listen to, remember and enjoy all that detail.

Kyle, I don't want to pile on you or anything, but I find this time you are talking completely out of your ass

This last saturday, I went to my gamers' reunion. Some of these people I had not seen for 14 to 17 years. I also had news thanks to them of other gamers that I know but could not attend and are now based in Ottawa, London, France and Oregon.

I can tell you very detailed game/settings like Harn/Harnmaster are still played, not just admired. If Traveller counts, you can add that as well. If Ars Magica tied to Mage: The Ascension counts, you can also add that.

AD&D1e? It is still VERY MUCH played around here. Not just discussed in nostalgia. I myself played in several campaigns just last year and discussed it. I'm not talking about a single isolated DM either. I see those old hardcovers all the time and there's a lot of AD&D1e being played, as well as other popular games (lots of GURPS 3e, D&D3, WoD, Warhammer, etc...)

Maybe it's because I started playing over a quarter of a century ago (and thus know a lot of old time gamers ) but my anecdotal experience seems to differ from yours. At the very least, I think it is unwise to make claims based on forums you frequent against your local gaming circle.  

And of course, in my case, I introduce all the other fringe games, indie or not. So CORPS, Story Engine, BESM, QAGS, Kult, Over The Edge as well as a crapload of indie games like Primetime Adventures and The Mountain Witch are introduced either by me or through my recommendations. And they are all played at least a few times.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI'm just trying to describe my experiences in general terms, descriptive rather than prescriptive.

Unlike other forms of analysis, there's no way for someone to use this to either make better games, select games they're more likely to enjoy, or find ways to enjoy the games they're already playing even more.  It's only purpose is as a obscure derogatory comment.

Quote from: Kyle AaronLast year, for example, I gamed with 14 different people. I met and discussed gaming with another dozen or so, and through both groups heard at length about another two dozen gamers.

The Internet and RPG Discussion Forums is an International community.  You're seeing discussion about games on the International level, and comparing that to what you're personally seeing on the Local / Regional level.

Online I see a lot of mentions of GURPS, Exalted, and Rifts -- but I don't see people around here playing those games.  I do see lots of groups playing Serenity, All Flesh Must Be Eaten and Legends of the Five Rings.  All that means is that, just like film, tv, books, clothes, music, or whatever else, different areas can have variations in the type of things that area popular.

What you're describing isn't "much admired and rarely played" it's "much admired and rarely played In Kyle's Area:

Marpika

Which makes me think of some new girl at your school who you're being mean to and making up gossip about.

"Did you hear about Marpika?!  She thinks she's so cool, but I don't think she has any friends.  Who'd want to hang out with her anyway?  Let's go write things about her on the bathroom walls."

Please channel your energies into something positive, like Cheetoism, rather than picking on poor Marpika.

I have just been reading round on RPG.net and I think they are on the whole getting the game they deserve :-)

Quote from: Kyle AaronYeah, I'm not sure about Jorune. Like Tekumel and Harn, it's more setting than system. So we're probably looking at something different compared to a MARP system.

I could be OK with Harn the world. I'd just avoid the world hoping ability of the Godstones, it seemed like an excuse to play a different game....if I wanted to do that I'd just play a different game.  But I was completely underwhelmed with the system. Among other things the combat could just drag on and on.