Which D20/OGL game(s), or combination thereof, address the following objections I have to D&D? Since I've been out of the loop for so long (haven't touched the game since 1e), maybe D&D itself already does.
- Advancement by class/level, with level affecting a package of qualities central to the character's power including hit points, general offensive combat ability (to hit roll), and things like thief skills and magical spell slots, so that all those things go up in unison.
- (Related) The fact that you can look at the advancement table for your "inexperienced" character and know pretty much exactly what he has to look like at any point in his "career". I.e., a 1st-level fighter can look forward to becoming an 8th-level fighter and so on.
- Escalating HP in general as the method of representing character defensive ability
- Power jumps between levels, so that an 8th-level character is almost a different species from a 4th-level character, yet there are only four "notches" of difference between them.
Please don't argue with my criteria. If you want to know what any of them mean, they mean exactly how AD&D 1e works.
But what about these "Feats" that I hear of? Sounds like some sort of special ability that you can activate somehow. Tell me more! Do you get additional feats per level? Are you restricted by your class? Is the power of your feat a function of class and your absolute level, or of how long you've had it, or something else entirely?
If anyone has any other D&D (or especially AD&D) features or deficiencies they hate, please PM me and I'll think about adding them to my list so that RPGPundit and other D20 fans can tell me where they're fixed.
Incidentally I'm seriously interested in Spycraft, Conan OGL (though less so since I think there's going to be a RQ version at some point), True20, and Perfect20, so I'd love to hear how they or any other D20/OGL rules set will fit my tastes.
Quote from: Elliot WilenWhich D20/OGL game(s), or combination thereof, address the following objections I have to D&D? Since I've been out of the loop for so long (haven't touched the game since 1e), maybe D&D itself already does.
- Advancement by class/level, with level affecting a package of qualities central to the character's power including hit points, general offensive combat ability (to hit roll), and things like thief skills and magical spell slots, so that all those things go up in unison.
- (Related) The fact that you can look at the advancement table for your "inexperienced" character and know pretty much exactly what he has to look like at any point in his "career". I.e., a 1st-level fighter can look forward to becoming an 8th-level fighter and so on.
- Escalating HP in general as the method of representing character defensive ability
- Power jumps between levels, so that an 8th-level character is almost a different species from a 4th-level character, yet there are only four "notches" of difference between them.
Please don't argue with my criteria. If you want to know what any of them mean, they mean exactly how AD&D 1e works.
But what about these "Feats" that I hear of? Sounds like some sort of special ability that you can activate somehow. Tell me more! Do you get additional feats per level? Are you restricted by your class? Is the power of your feat a function of class and your absolute level, or of how long you've had it, or something else entirely?
If anyone has any other D&D (or especially AD&D) features or deficiencies they hate, please PM me and I'll think about adding them to my list so that RPGPundit and other D20 fans can tell me where they're fixed.
Incidentally I'm seriously interested in Spycraft, Conan OGL (though less so since I think there's going to be a RQ version at some point), True20, and Perfect20, so I'd love to hear how they or any other D20/OGL rules set will fit my tastes.
If it's levels you hate, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but... yeah.
That said, multiclassing is fairly easy, not to mention common.
THAC0 (not on your list) is fixified.
Feats you get at 1st level, 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter. Each one is a unique bonus or ability.
Fighters are one class *least* identical because of their progression of bonus feats.
Quote from: Elliot WilenWhich D20/OGL game(s), or combination thereof, address the following objections I have to D&D? Since I've been out of the loop for so long (haven't touched the game since 1e), maybe D&D itself already does.
- Advancement by class/level, with level affecting a package of qualities central to the character's power including hit points, general offensive combat ability (to hit roll), and things like thief skills and magical spell slots, so that all those things go up in unison.
- (Related) The fact that you can look at the advancement table for your "inexperienced" character and know pretty much exactly what he has to look like at any point in his "career". I.e., a 1st-level fighter can look forward to becoming an 8th-level fighter and so on.
- Escalating HP in general as the method of representing character defensive ability
- Power jumps between levels, so that an 8th-level character is almost a different species from a 4th-level character, yet there are only four "notches" of difference between them.
Please don't argue with my criteria. If you want to know what any of them mean, they mean exactly how AD&D 1e works.
But what about these "Feats" that I hear of? Sounds like some sort of special ability that you can activate somehow. Tell me more! Do you get additional feats per level? Are you restricted by your class? Is the power of your feat a function of class and your absolute level, or of how long you've had it, or something else entirely?
If anyone has any other D&D (or especially AD&D) features or deficiencies they hate, please PM me and I'll think about adding them to my list so that RPGPundit and other D20 fans can tell me where they're fixed.
Incidentally I'm seriously interested in Spycraft, Conan OGL (though less so since I think there's going to be a RQ version at some point), True20, and Perfect20, so I'd love to hear how they or any other D20/OGL rules set will fit my tastes.
Check out D20 Call of Cthulhu. IIRC, it addresses vitually all of your objections.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceCheck out D20 Call of Cthulhu. IIRC, it addresses vitually all of your objections.
-clash
Clas if right, CoC d20 has a class/level structure, but not one that effects what you described. It's my favorite adaptation of d20 proper, hands down...and IMO the best d20 game ever developed.
It's also stand alone (no need for D&D stuff).
Mutants & Masterminds would work for this.
Point-based supers game with generic applications.
Quote from: joewolzClas if right, CoC d20 has a class/level structure, but not one that effects what you described. It's my favorite adaptation of d20 proper, hands down...and IMO the best d20 game ever developed.
It's also stand alone (no need for D&D stuff).
Since CoC D20 has only one "class", its really a "classless" system by most definitions of the word. Each and every character will be different and class has no bearing on how that difference manifests.
The only other D20 game that I can think of that is like this is Jonathan Tweet's "Omega World".
You might also like True20 quite a bit; in that game there are only three base classes (the warrior, the expert, and the adept) which are then heavily customized by each player into all kinds of combinations.
Mutants and Masterminds is a point-buy system that is classless, effectively.
RPGPundit
I could give you a bunch of examples like everyone else is doing, but instead I'll just suggest you join a game and find out for yourself on most of this. Judging from your post, I think you might be shocked to see how the game looks now.
On feats, though:
Feats are special abilities that you choose to build your character and make your character unique. They are nearly always rules oriented.
You start with at least one (two if you are human, and perhaps more depending on what class you are playing). They can alter your character in different ways and form interesting combinations. You get more feats as you go up in levels. Some feats are more powerful and have prerequisites.
For example- the disarming feat requires another feat that is predicated on intelligence score. So you could create a high Int/Dex fighter or rogue with 'expertise' and 'improved disarm' and possibly 'weapon finesse' to create a fighter that uses brains and speed to defeat enemies, rather than brawny thews.
Also, every new d20 book that comes out generally has a few new feats, so it's an ever-expanding list.
Some feats are purely tactical like 'power attack' which lets strong characters take a penalty on attack in order to inflict more damage.
Some feats are more 'colorful'. I have a gnome sorcerer in Living Greyhawk who is fascinated with dragons. He has the feat 'Draconic Heritage: Copper' which indicates a distant relative was a copper dragon. It gives him a bonus on some skills associated with copper dragons (bluff, for example) and a resistance against the types of energy that copper dragons use in their breath attacks, and it 'unlocks' a series of other feats that will make the character progressively more draconic as he rises in levels. By level 8 or so, I should have a breath attack.
:emot-rock:
Me, I hated the chargen of CoC d20. I preferred BRP's (though d20's skill system is superior). Were I to want to play CoC under d20, I'd take the mythos and magic material from CoC d20 and use d20 modern or Spycraft for chargen.
To the topic at hand:
It sounds like you specifically hate d20 level advancement. That's rejecting one of the fundamental aspects of d20, so I think it might be safe to say that d20 is not the game for you, with a few possible exceptions:
Mutants & Masterminds - No HP, "levels" only exist as a cap on your power level, but are dispensable (I wouldn't, since M&M lacks other balancing mechanisms like diminishing return cost schemes.)
BESM d20 - More or less "focussed point gen." It does have the "chunky advancement" you hate, but provides a lot of flexibility by providing some of a classes capability at each level by point buy. Has some of the "fidgetiness" that I hate in point buy, but if you don't happen to hate that, it might work for you.
True20 - Also HP less. Has classes and levels, but parses out feats at every level, giving you a lot of flexibility in shaping your character without the fidgetiness of point buy that BESM d20 has.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen- Advancement by class/level, with level affecting a package of qualities central to the character's power including hit points, general offensive combat ability (to hit roll), and things like thief skills and magical spell slots, so that all those things go up in unison.
- (Related) The fact that you can look at the advancement table for your "inexperienced" character and know pretty much exactly what he has to look like at any point in his "career". I.e., a 1st-level fighter can look forward to becoming an 8th-level fighter and so on.
- Escalating HP in general as the method of representing character defensive ability
- Power jumps between levels, so that an 8th-level character is almost a different species from a 4th-level character, yet there are only four "notches" of difference between them.
It sounds like you might like BESMd20.
Point #1=Ignore the stuff at the start about character classes and treat BESMd20 like any other point build character system and you should be able to eliminate this point as a problem.
Point #2=Since you'll be ignoring the classes in the game, and treating the system as a pure point build character generation system, this point won't trouble you anymore either.
Point #3=In BESMd20, escalating HPs are not the only way to represent defensive ability. You can create characters with defensive skills and the norm in the game is for defense rolls to be used. However, excalating HPs are still a very valuable tool of the game. Your problem may or may not be addressed on this point.
Point #4=Since you'd be treating the system as a point build system, there wouldn't be a sudden leap in power every 13.3 adventures (unless that's what you wanted). Instead, each adventure would provide small character point rewards that players would more gradually upgrade their characters with.
CoC has two classes, active and defensive, and has many of the faults he complains of. A first level character makes a beginning BRP character look like something from Feng Shui, a high level character is a pulp hero. One of the key problems for me with CoC d20 is that the game essentially changes genre as you rise in level, from fragile survival horror to pulp action.
I mean, I appreciate there's a massive damage save with a low threshold but you do have escalating hit points still and your save improves, so that doesn't really fix the problem.
What about Levi's Perfect 20? That's won awards and I think avoids all these issues. CoC d20 I would definitely not recommend based on Elliott's preferences.
Quote from: GabrielIt sounds like you might like BESMd20.
Hit points would generally still go up though.
You can get a point based d20 out of BESM D20 but it will be so so. The book is poory put together on the whole. I like BESM and D20 but I wasn't impressed with their off spring, it felt rushed and poorly tested.
Elliot, Budhism might help you give up your hate more than a modified system. Just accept that that D20 isn't going to work for what you like and drop the hate.
Quote from: BalbinusCoC has two classes, active and defensive,
Active and defensive are two combat options, not classes.
Quoteand has many of the faults he complains of. A first level character makes a beginning BRP character look like something from Feng Shui, a high level character is a pulp hero.
If this is hyperbole to say that a low level D20 CoC character is actually WEAKER than a starting CoC BRP character, then that's true. Its something a lot of the rabid anti-d20 Coc fanboys refused to admit for a very long time.
QuoteOne of the key problems for me with CoC d20 is that the game essentially changes genre as you rise in level, from fragile survival horror to pulp action.
I mean, I appreciate there's a massive damage save with a low threshold but you do have escalating hit points still and your save improves, so that doesn't really fix the problem.
Dude, any hit that does 10 or more points of damage risks killing you instantly. That pretty much solves the problem. And if that's really not enough for you, you can just change the HP rules so that instead of rolling an extra die each level, you just get 1 or 2 hp per level, either modified by your CON or not as you choose.
Your argument has a couple of gaping holes larger than Boy George's well-used netherregions:
First: you make it sound like high level CoC D20 games would be like Dirk Handsome personally arm-wrestling cthulhu and giving him a noogie while smoking down a cigar. Its nothing like that.
Second: What the fuck are you doing, as a CoC DM, playing a game where any PC gets anywhere NEAR "high level"? Its CALL OF FUCKING CTHULHU; if your character survives 4 adventures without going nuts or dying he's a grizzled veteran. Where the fuck are you pulling all of these 20th level Doc Savage characters out of??
I ran a CoC D20 campaign for a year, where I houseruled that you went up a level
every time you survived an adventure, and even then the highest anyone in the entire game got was to 6th level; and by then that character was so fucked up mentally and by horrible things the mythos had done to his body and soul that in many ways he was considerably weaker at 6th level than he'd been at say, 3rd or 4th.
So what you're talking about here is really a non-issue.
RPGPundit
Awesome responses, folks! Including a couple games that I never would have thought to look at.
As for the Buddhism option, I'll give it some thought but the real purpose here is to explore the possibility of a game that I can call D20, thus allowing me to tap into the name recognition and a number of familiar mechanics while recruiting players.
RPGPundit,
CoC does not have to be a bloodbath every few sessions, some of the best CoC gaming IMO comes when characters have scope to develop and become real to the players. I've run multiple session CoC campaigns which, if ran in D20, certainly would have ended up with high level investigators. They still ended up mad, imprisoned or dead, but we took our time getting there. A party hosing every few sessions in my experience does not best build tension.
As for the massive damage save, your save bonuses increase with levels.
Quote from: BalbinusRPGPundit,
CoC does not have to be a bloodbath every few sessions, some of the best CoC gaming IMO comes when characters have scope to develop and become real to the players. I've run multiple session CoC campaigns which, if ran in D20, certainly would have ended up with high level investigators. They still ended up mad, imprisoned or dead, but we took our time getting there. A party hosing every few sessions in my experience does not best build tension.
As for the massive damage save, your save bonuses increase with levels.
I played in a CoC d20 campaign that lasted about a year. The party numbered 6. By the time the campaign ended - with my PC's nervous system and still-aware head removed and grafted into a living machine for all eternity and other PCs fighting amongst themselves - we were about 6th level. This was playing once a week. The PCs seemed pretty fragile at that level, which, admittedly, is at the low end of mid-level. But we were still hesitant to get into a fight with a dogpack, let along shoggoths and the like.
I'd call the two options in CoC d20 classes after a fashion. They are a bit more flexible when it comes to skills, but I find I can't do a fair emulation of many BRP CoC with them. Like I said, I think the chargen sucks.
It might be a bit pulpier at high levels, but you are still pretty durn fragile given the MDT rules.
Quote from: Elliot Wilenthe real purpose here is to explore the possibility of a game that I can call D20, thus allowing me to tap into the name recognition and a number of familiar mechanics while recruiting players.
That would be my purpose in picking up something d20.
I don't hate the d20 thing. I think d20 CoC and SW look about as good mechanically as their forerunners. I think D&D assumptions about setting and character are a bit cheesy, but that's not a sin. It's just that I don't seem to
need any d20 in my life, and the game costs a shitload compared to the IPR stuff.
I'd say that of the d20 offerings, the ones that picque my interest the most are
Iron Heroes and
Spycraft. But I'm looking at
Burning Empires and
1001 Nights and
Shock: and half a dozen other things, and they all work out as better value for me.
Ok, I won't say much good about d20, but even I have to admit it has some good points.
I read this product called 1001 scienfe fiction weapons and saw that in the d20 system it tells you how hard it is to break a weapon, which is kind of nice as gurps doesn't have it.
Likewise it tells you hoiw hard it is to conceal an object, again gurps doesn't have that.
So d20 has some nice touches. I may not like it but you don;'t have to hate it.
Quote from: beejazzIf it's levels you hate, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but... yeah.
That said, multiclassing is fairly easy, not to mention common.
Yeah, I'd like to know more about that. In 1e, IIRC, humans could multiclass by starting over at level 1 for their new class, but in so doing they had all sorts of weird restrictions whose purpose was unclear (can't use old class's abilities or something like that). I wonder if the explanation is that you can't "advance" as a Fighter unless you're "livin' a la vida guerrera" rather than doing thiefly stuff. Basically a nod to the Runequest idea that "experience" actually means doing the stuff you're getting better at, unlike "XP" which often seemed like a special kind of money contained inside monsters, that you could spend however you liked. (Not only D&D but also Dragonquest, TFT, and GURPS gave that impression to varying degrees.)
Anyway, the other weird thing I remember about 1e multiclassing was that you didn't get any hitpoint benefits from the new class until you exceeded your old class's level and that you had some unusual way of deciding which combat table to use. I guess this was partially justified by the way that levels had a semi-exponential progression (?)
Meanwhile demihumans could multiclass differently. There was a different word for this, not sure which group used "multiclass" and which used the other word. Anyway, it meant having to split XP evenly between all classes, so once you started life as a Magic User/Fighter, you'd have little control or variation in future development: at 500,000 XP or whatever you'd be a 4th level MU/6th level Fighter, then a little later a 5th level MU/6th level Fighter and so forth depending on the level breakpoints.
I saw in Spycraft 2.0 they have something about unlimited multiclassing or something like that. What I'd like to see is something like Dragonquest where you could have multiple "professions" (meaning clusters of skills), but each one advanced independently and they generally didn't have a direct bearing on combat ability, which was handled separately.
QuoteTHAC0 (not on your list) is fixified.
Yeah? Tell me more!
Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, I'd like to know more about that. In 1e, IIRC, humans could multiclass by starting over at level 1 for their new class, but in so doing they had all sorts of weird restrictions whose purpose was unclear (can't use old class's abilities or something like that).
The nature of multiclassing has fundamentally changed. Which weirded me out at first, but even I had houserules some of the wierd stuff out of the old bizarre multiclass rules. In hindsight, it makes a lot more sense now.
In 3.x, the currency with which you advance in classes is levels, not XP. You get all the benefits of your various classes, and they add, so you don't need any fidgety little rules to prevent stacking of abilities from deriving benefits from levels in different classes because you don't get any more levels multiclassing.
In 1e/2e, if you were a single class you might be 10th level or 8th/8th, because you split XP, not levels. So you had to make fidgety little special rules to combine abilities, such as the "no HP from levels" thing you were talking about. In 3e, the same amount of XP results in the same level. A 10th level character can be 10th level in a single class or 5 levels in each of 2 classes, or any combination totalling 10. Since your total levels are the same, you add hp and bonuses from your two classes together, allowing you to forgo any fidgety rules.
QuoteI saw in Spycraft 2.0 they have something about unlimited multiclassing or something like that. What I'd like to see is something like Dragonquest where you could have multiple "professions" (meaning clusters of skills), but each one advanced independently and they generally didn't have a direct bearing on combat ability, which was handled separately.
The only blanket restriction about multiclassing in D&D is the "favored class" restriction. If your levels in two different classes differ by more than 1, you suffer a -20% XP penalty on all XP received, but classes that are favored classes for your race are not subject to this rule. This rule exists mainly to reinforce the flavor of races, but also acts to restrict some rules abuses and some wacky combinations.
Most OGL/D20 derived games -- including spycraft -- do away with the whole "favored class / 20% munchkin tax" thing and simply let you mix classes as you will. Some rely on this (like d20 modern.)
Quote(regarding THAC0)
Yeah? Tell me more!
Most rolls in d20 fall under the unified mechanic: d20+mods >= Difficulty Class. Skill rolls, attack rolls, saving throws all follow this pattern. Instead of giving you target numbers for things like THAC0 and saves, you have bonuses for everything that follow this pattern (attack bonus, save bonus, skill bonuses.) In the case of attacks, Difficulty Class (DC) is armor class.
THAC0 is no longer part of the game.
Quote from: BalbinusRPGPundit,
CoC does not have to be a bloodbath every few sessions, some of the best CoC gaming IMO comes when characters have scope to develop and become real to the players. I've run multiple session CoC campaigns which, if ran in D20, certainly would have ended up with high level investigators. They still ended up mad, imprisoned or dead, but we took our time getting there. A party hosing every few sessions in my experience does not best build tension.
As for the massive damage save, your save bonuses increase with levels.
Mine wasn't a bloodbath, either, and my d20 CoC game ran for a year and a half or so, every other week. Two of the original characters survived until the end, and with advancement every 4 sessions, they ended up around 6th level with 20-30 SAN remaining. At that point, there was a wonderful campaign-fulfilling TPK. (You can see my blog on this site for details.)
Instead of MDT, we used VP/WP, and had anything they couldn't react to deal WP damage. Never once in the entire game did I hear anything like "No, I don't need to worry about that - I have plenty of hit points!" It just didn't happen.
I did run a one-shot with the MDT in place. Sure, your save bonuses increase, but it's not like there are any magic items to boost them down the road. So what if your Fortitude Save is +8? If the DC is still 15, that's a pretty huge chance for character death.
-O
re: CoC D20 and levels, there's nothing that says you have to have advancement at anywhere near the rate of D&D. You can set it to once every 10 sessions or whatever.
I see different levels as differences in play style. If you want a mildly pulpish game, start at level 5-6. For pulpy heroes, start at 10 or so.