I'd call the two options in CoC d20 classes after a fashion. They are a bit more flexible when it comes to skills, but I find I can't do a fair emulation of many BRP CoC with them. Like I said, I think the chargen sucks.

It might be a bit pulpier at high levels, but you are still pretty durn fragile given the MDT rules.

Quote from: Elliot Wilenthe real purpose here is to explore the possibility of a game that I can call D20, thus allowing me to tap into the name recognition and a number of familiar mechanics while recruiting players.

That would be my purpose in picking up something d20.

I don't hate the d20 thing. I think d20 CoC and SW look about as good mechanically as their forerunners. I think D&D assumptions about setting and character are a bit cheesy, but that's not a sin. It's just that I don't seem to need any d20 in my life, and the game costs a shitload compared to the IPR stuff.

I'd say that of the d20 offerings, the ones that picque my interest the most are Iron Heroes and Spycraft. But I'm looking at Burning Empires and 1001 Nights and Shock: and half a dozen other things, and they all work out as better value for me.

Ok, I won't say much good about d20, but even I have to admit it has some good points.

I read this product called 1001 scienfe fiction weapons and saw that in the d20 system it tells you how hard it is to break a weapon, which is kind of nice as gurps doesn't have it.

Likewise it tells you hoiw hard it is to conceal an object, again gurps doesn't have that.

So d20 has some nice touches. I may not like it but you don;'t have to hate it.

Quote from: beejazzIf it's levels you hate, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but... yeah.

That said, multiclassing is fairly easy, not to mention common.

Yeah, I'd like to know more about that. In 1e, IIRC, humans could multiclass by starting over at level 1 for their new class, but in so doing they had all sorts of weird restrictions whose purpose was unclear (can't use old class's abilities or something like that). I wonder if the explanation is that you can't "advance" as a Fighter unless you're "livin' a la vida guerrera" rather than doing thiefly stuff. Basically a nod to the Runequest idea that "experience" actually means doing the stuff you're getting better at, unlike "XP" which often seemed like a special kind of money  contained inside monsters, that you could spend however you liked. (Not only D&D but also Dragonquest, TFT, and GURPS gave that impression to varying degrees.)

Anyway, the other weird thing I remember about 1e multiclassing was that you didn't get any hitpoint benefits from the new class until you exceeded your old class's level and that you had some unusual way of deciding which combat table to use. I guess this was partially justified by the way that levels had a semi-exponential progression (?)

Meanwhile demihumans could multiclass differently. There was a different word for this, not sure which group used "multiclass" and which used the other word. Anyway, it meant having to split XP evenly between all classes, so once you started life as a Magic User/Fighter, you'd have little control or variation in future development: at 500,000 XP or whatever you'd be a 4th level MU/6th level Fighter, then a little later a 5th level MU/6th level Fighter and so forth depending on the level breakpoints.

I saw in Spycraft 2.0 they have something about unlimited multiclassing or something like that. What I'd like to see is something like Dragonquest where you could have multiple "professions" (meaning clusters of skills), but each one advanced independently and they generally didn't have a direct bearing on combat ability, which was handled separately.

QuoteTHAC0 (not on your list) is fixified.

Yeah? Tell me more!

Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, I'd like to know more about that. In 1e, IIRC, humans could multiclass by starting over at level 1 for their new class, but in so doing they had all sorts of weird restrictions whose purpose was unclear (can't use old class's abilities or something like that).

The nature of multiclassing has fundamentally changed. Which weirded me out at first, but even I had houserules some of the wierd stuff out of the old bizarre multiclass rules. In hindsight, it makes a lot more sense now.

In 3.x, the currency with which you advance in classes is levels, not XP. You get all the benefits of your various classes, and they add, so you don't need any fidgety little rules to prevent stacking of abilities from deriving benefits from levels in different classes because you don't get any more levels multiclassing.

In 1e/2e, if you were a single class you might be 10th level or 8th/8th, because you split XP, not levels. So you had to make fidgety little special rules to combine abilities, such as the "no HP from levels" thing you were talking about. In 3e, the same amount of XP results in the same level. A 10th level character can be 10th level in a single class or 5 levels in each of 2 classes, or any combination totalling 10. Since your total levels are the same, you add hp and bonuses from your two classes together, allowing you to forgo any fidgety rules.

QuoteI saw in Spycraft 2.0 they have something about unlimited multiclassing or something like that. What I'd like to see is something like Dragonquest where you could have multiple "professions" (meaning clusters of skills), but each one advanced independently and they generally didn't have a direct bearing on combat ability, which was handled separately.

The only blanket restriction about multiclassing in D&D is the "favored class" restriction. If your levels in two different classes differ by more than 1, you suffer a -20% XP penalty on all XP received, but classes that are favored classes for your race are not subject to this rule. This rule exists mainly to reinforce the flavor of races, but also acts to restrict some rules abuses and some wacky combinations.

Most OGL/D20 derived games -- including spycraft -- do away with the whole "favored class / 20% munchkin tax" thing and simply let you mix classes as you will. Some rely on this (like d20 modern.)

Quote(regarding THAC0)

Yeah? Tell me more!

Most rolls in d20 fall under the unified mechanic: d20+mods >= Difficulty Class. Skill rolls, attack rolls, saving throws all follow this pattern. Instead of giving you target numbers for things like THAC0 and saves, you have bonuses for everything that follow this pattern (attack bonus, save bonus, skill bonuses.) In the case of attacks, Difficulty Class (DC) is armor class.

THAC0 is no longer part of the game.

Quote from: BalbinusRPGPundit,

CoC does not have to be a bloodbath every few sessions, some of the best CoC gaming IMO comes when characters have scope to develop and become real to the players.  I've run multiple session CoC campaigns which, if ran in D20, certainly would have ended up with high level investigators.  They still ended up mad, imprisoned or dead, but we took our time getting there.  A party hosing every few sessions in my experience does not best build tension.

As for the massive damage save, your save bonuses increase with levels.

Mine wasn't a bloodbath, either, and my d20 CoC game ran for a year and a half or so, every other week.  Two of the original characters survived until the end, and with advancement every 4 sessions, they ended up around 6th level with 20-30 SAN remaining.  At that point, there was a wonderful campaign-fulfilling TPK.  (You can see my blog on this site for details.)

Instead of MDT, we used VP/WP, and had anything they couldn't react to deal WP damage.  Never once in the entire game did I hear anything like "No, I don't need to worry about that - I have plenty of hit points!"  It just didn't happen.

I did run a one-shot with the MDT in place.  Sure, your save bonuses increase, but it's not like there are any magic items to boost them down the road.  So what if your Fortitude Save is +8?  If the DC is still 15, that's a pretty huge chance for character death.

-O

re: CoC D20 and levels, there's nothing that says you have to have advancement at anywhere near the rate of D&D.  You can set it to once every 10 sessions or whatever.

I see different levels as differences in play style.  If you want a mildly pulpish game, start at level 5-6.  For pulpy heroes, start at 10 or so.