Quote from: Koltar;476855GURPS 4/e Lite is FREE for pity's sake!

Thats a much better price than all those boring first person-shooter X-Box games.


- Ed C.

Yup, and if I ever wanted to turn off a complete newbie from RPGs, I'd have them create a character in GURPS as their introduction to gaming.

Quote from: jeff37923;477086Yup, and if I ever wanted to turn off a complete newbie from RPGs, I'd have them create a character in GURPS as their introduction to gaming.

Hey man, my first ever RPG campaign was a GURPS game, and I'm still here.

Quote from: jeff37923;477086Yup, and if I ever wanted to turn off a complete newbie from RPGs, I'd have them create a character in GURPS as their introduction to gaming.

GURPS is only intimidating because of the sheer number of options. Using just the quick-start, or any of the chargen in the individual gamebooks (such as the Discworld RPG or The Hellboy Sourcebook & Roleplaying Game), making a character is incredibly easy. GURPs is a toolkit system, and a good GM would isolate out those elements that are relevant to their campaign  beforehand.

Or, just do it the way I do with new players: have them create a character simply by answering a few basic questions, and then translating that into game terms for them.

Quote from: Ramrod;477098Hey man, my first ever RPG campaign was a GURPS game, and I'm still here.

GURPS' complexity is front-loaded. Give the newb a pregen, explain 3d6-roll-under, and he (or she) is good to go.

Lots of people in Brazil got their start with GURPS (it was huge around here back in the early 90s).

My examples were only the lowest priced and most affordable Role Playing games that we tend to have on hand at the store.

Its not my fault that SJ Games is just a smidgeon smarter than WotC in that they offer a FREE version of their rules system.

Also, despite knee-jerk biases and such amongst some people responding - plenty of people start with GURPS as their first RPG and manage to figure it out just fine.

Did you actually look at at the cover page of GURPS Lite? There is that mini glossary or RPG terms  - that's why I like to hand it out. The majority of those terms are used in other games as well. It gets across basic concepts of gaming quickly.

Oh and now that I've been to the store since my earlier post I note that DELUXE SAVAGE WORLDS is $29.99 - that's still 5 bucks more affordable than the D&d players Handbook.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;477164My examples were only the lowest priced and most affordable Role Playing games that we tend to have on hand at the store.

Its not my fault that SJ Games is just a smidgeon smarter than WotC in that they offer a FREE version of their rules system.

- Ed C.

Actually, GURPS has been on the decline since oh, around when 4th ed came out (outside of that 'new edition' bump).

They quickly fell down on their boast of "one new hardback full color book each month".

For years in the "State of the Company", GURPS has been at the bottom of their "to do list" below just about every other thing they could list... and the goals are never met.

SJGames has taken GURPS out of the business of producing new physical books and gone all PDF available through e23 (I never looked to see if it was available on like DTRPG).

In my region (MT/OR/WA), the MIB team (SJ Games demo team) is begging people to run GURPS at cons and such. Because of all the changes and slow desctruction of the system no one wants to support GURPS (especially since they can't use their points to buy PDFs).

For THIRD ed the free 32-page rules worked well. now? It's a dying game.

Quote from: GamerDude;477172Actually, GURPS has been on the decline since oh, around when 4th ed came out (outside of that 'new edition' bump).

They had the worst timing in the universe for 4E, basically. A couple years earlier, they would have had had enough time to re-establish a solid product line before the RPG industry crashed. A couple years later and they would have known not to do a 4E.

As it is, all they managed to accomplish was destroying the one unique selling point and strength GURPS had in the market place (its immense line of support).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;477214They had the worst timing in the universe for 4E, basically. A couple years earlier, they would have had had enough time to re-establish a solid product line before the RPG industry crashed.................

Think larger scale - ALL of the retail business started to decline not just the RPG industry.

Of course GamerDude is just showing the kind of biased attitude that I was referring to.

The point was affordable entry points into roleplaying games. Whatever some old fart thinks - FREE product trumps stick in the mud attitudes every time.


- Ed C.

The problem with GURPS after 2nd edition is that the corebooks are too much of a toolkit. With GURPS 2nd Edition it was pretty easy to figure how to make a fantasy character and GURP Magic for 2nd edition wasn't too bad either.

What GURPS needs ready to run standalone books for Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and Horror. That includes the minimum needed to run a complete campaign using the standard tropes of the genre. For Fantasy that means orcs, elves, etc ,etc.


I debated this numerous times over on the SJ Games forums. Sean Punch views GURPS niche competing for the generic toolkit market. Other complaints include that no GURPS freelancer wants to write that those books, there is no time or resource to write any thing other then the toolkit product. Also the GURPS fail to understand that GURPS Fantasy as represented by 150 pts character is a great fantasy game and that you don't need to try to emulate D&D as they are trying to do with the Dungeon Fantasy Line. (Although DF has proven very useful and much appreciated).

Thanks to D20, there is no room for a RPG to stand on the merits of being a toolkit. A company can market a toolkit RPG but it needs to have compelling implementations with is the one area that SJ Games has always been weak on, settings and adventures.

Free product is nice, but GURPS as an introductory RPG is not good. An introductory RPG should have as one of its hallmarks, easy to create characters with a self-explanatory system for gamers who must teach themselves - GURPS does not have that.

Quote from: Koltar;477258Of course GamerDude is just showing the kind of biased attitude that I was referring to.

Um, I could be as assuming and rude as you are but I won't.

I had pretty much gotten tired of RPing and was ready to just drop it when I discovered GURPS, and downloading GURPS lite 3rd ed showed me a fun game - to the point that I went on to be running three weekly campaigns simultaneously and had purchased just about every book available. My wife and I both going on disability forced me to sell a majority of the collection but I still own a sizible portion of the GURPS 3e physical books plus many PDFs.  I also own just about every GURPS 4th ed book and twice tried to start campaigns that failed because of individuals who don't understand "Firefly/Serenity" does not mean "Lie so your daughter can rip-off Inuhashu (however its spelled) and claim it to be her original idea.

I also have a few cons in my region I go to every year and play in several of the GURPS sessions run by a great GM I know.

QuoteThe point was affordable entry points into role playing games. Whatever some old fart thinks - FREE product trumps stick in the mud attitudes every time.
- Ed C.

Honestly, you're avatar pic looks pretty old, older than mine. That being said "affordable"? GURPS Lite is presented as a "hey, here's a tiny portion of the game - hopefully it looks good enough you'll buy it" Nice concept and I applaud it.

Finally, my comments are all facts back up by the SJ Games "State of the Company" and their forums, etc. I never said the game was bad or unworthy etc I said it was declining.

And I love that "stick in the mud" comment. Yeah I think I hear it from D&D 4th ed players who love it but hate on anyone stating the truth about the game or it's sales problems, or from people who blindly see nothing but a universe which revolves around their favored system (you). How about "Free quality well supported product" beats "Free decent but almost dead as far as the publisher is concerned product?"

BTW, while you are honest that you are "Openly GURPS Loving" it should say "Openly GURPS Fanatic in Deep Denial Concerning Any of the Unfortunate Negatives About the Game".

Oh yeah, I still recommend GURPS to people who want a nicely crunchy generic system. But I can see how being honest about the positives and negatives while promoting the system makes me some old fart  negative stick in the mud. Better that then the mindless zealot who sees evil in any who don't agree with your tiny narrow clouded viewpoint.

Quote from: jeff37923;477086Yup, and if I ever wanted to turn off a complete newbie from RPGs, I'd have them create a character in GURPS as their introduction to gaming.

Quote from: jeff37923;477263Free product is nice, but GURPS as an introductory RPG is not good. An introductory RPG should have as one of its hallmarks, easy to create characters with a self-explanatory system for gamers who must teach themselves - GURPS does not have that.

I'm with Jeff - GURPS is a lego set.  A kit of peices that you have to assemble yourself to get a working game.  It is for experienced role-players who want lots of options, a fair amount of crunch, and have a very sim-y system.

GURPS Lite is almost the exact opposite of what a good introductory RPG is, IMO.  It's a good preview of the 4e system for experienced role-players (in fact, too good - I know a lot of people who found it superior to the full GURPS 4e system and simply use it instead of buying the books), but it's lousy for interested kids.


A good introductory RPG, IMO, is one that is tightly-defined, low-priced, and written for an audience that has no clue what they are reading.

If you want to grow the hobby/industry, you need something tightly-defined.  Kids need to be able to easily identify what the point of the game is.  "You can do anything!" isn't tight enough - you have to know where the lines are before you can learn to color outside them.  Thus, I think GURPS and SWEE both suck as introductory games.

Low price is also essential IMO.  The point isn't whether or not other forms of entertainment are expensive, the point is that in the end, if an RPG is just a book, then people are going to expect it to be priced like a mass-produced fiction book.  Fair or not, a RPG without playing peices or awesome computer graphics is simply not going to be thought to be of the same value as a boardgame or a computer game.  Careful viewers may note that a good majority of the adults in the hobby already have this POV, so I'm not sure why kids (who are much more literal minded) would think any differently.

I have to agree that GURPS lite is a great introduction to GURPS, but not a great introduction to roleplaying.

In any case, if you guys want to keep discussing the state of GURPS, or SJG's treatment of it, or other GURPS topics, feel free to start 1, 2, 5 or 20 GURPS threads on the forum, but do it, instead of continuing to chat about it here... except, of course, if you want to argue that GURPS is a great introductory product (though you could do that in a new thread too).

RPGpundit

Speaking of great introductions to TRPG, I am pretty fond of this father's intro for his 8 year old son and friends:

http://jamesstowe.blogspot.com/2011/09/dnd-for-8-year-olds.html