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I'd like your help finding a good, universal system.

Wait, wait!  Don't go.  I really need some help here.  I've done my own research, but there's so much out there now (compared to back when I was first gaming in the late 90s) and I can't possibly get a good survey of it on my own.  I'd really appreciate the opinions of people who know the Hobby a lot better than I do.  :)

I'm looking for a universal system with the following criteria:

1. It's a true universal system, meaning there's a core rulebook for it that's independent of any setting.

2. It dosen't suck*.

3. It's got settings for it, preferably a lot of settings...preferably a lot of awesome settings.

4. The system is capable of handling character power levels ranging from low-level dudes to almost-but-not-quite godlike.  This is the key point for my criteria.

5. Point (4) supersedes point (3).  If I can find a system that can handle very high power levels, but no settings, I'll consider it.

Right out of the barn, I'm eliminating the following systems: GURPS, HERO, and FATE.  Why?  For reasons.**

I'm somewhat familiar with Savage Worlds and EABA.  While my exposure is limited, I like both systems.  Has anyone used them in a high-powered campaign?

Beyond this, can you think of any other system besides these that might work?

I thank you for your time.  It's much appreciated.



* Note: You know perfectly well what sucks.  What does and dosen't suck has been conclusively proven through objective, logical analysis on this board, as well as the extrasensory geek powers many of us possess that are able to detect TTRPG suckery.

** Note: These are awesome systems that don't suck.  My rejection of said systems is a matter of personal preference, and not reflective in any way of the collective, inherent worth of those systems, their developers, or those who play them.

Big Eyes Small Mouth (BESM): Core book and a bunch of themed expansions.

Gurps: Go with 3rd ed for the most freedom. Lots and lots of setting books.

Mythic: No setting books. But it can cover about any setting. Can even be played without a GM.

FU: A GM-less system that like Mythic can cover alot of settings. Its had a few fan settings made like "FU you axe wielding Maniac" and others.

D&D!: No really! What hasnt it been adapted to?

And others like Meckton, Hero System, Amazing Engine, TFT, and so on.

Of these I like BESM the most. For some reason Gurps keeps turning me off after trying to work up interest. Usually turned off by some player being a little too stringent or fanatical. Mythic is great. But it has no setting books and is very dependant on the players creativity.

Quote from: noman;907420I'd like your help finding a good, universal system.

Which die mechanic do you prefer? And are you ok with skill-based resolution, or loathe it?

If you like the idea of GURPS, but hate the fiddliness, then SW is a great choice.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;907450Which die mechanic do you prefer? And are you ok with skill-based resolution, or loathe it?

I'm good with any dice mechanic, including diceless, except for dice pools.  I can't stand dice pools.*

* Note: My above mentioned aversion to dice pools has nothing whatsoever to do with the inherent worth of dice, dice pools, people who like dice pools, or people who identify as dice pools.

Quote from: robiswrong;907452If you like the idea of GURPS, but hate the fiddliness, then SW is a great choice.

That's the direction I'm leaning.  How does SW handle high-power (read: near-godlike) level games?

Eaba is fantastic, love it a lot.  But it doesn't really have a lot of developed setting material for it (yet).  I personally tend to use Gurps much more myself because of the extremely large among of developed material readily available.

Another possibility for you might be BRP.

I'm going to say - Savage Worlds.

In terms of high-powered, I've yet to personally run it at that level, but they certainly have plenty of rules for supers, and capital-ship combat. It has it's own "feel" at that scale. I tend to think it's a little lethal at that level.

If you have *any* desire to just use a basic system that will scale from normal everyday people and go to crazy-cosmic scales, I'd also offer up Advanced FASERIP (or any of it's knockoffs like ICONs, etc. But you'll have to do your own setting-work so this doesn't technically meet your criteria.)

Quote from: noman;907454I'm good with any dice mechanic, including diceless, except for dice pools.

Are your players role-players? Wargamers? Powergamers? Do they want to create stuff in their world? Do they want to sit quiet while you tell them a story and tell them what their character does, and they just roll dice for you?

I like the idea of universal systems.  Rarely, however, do I find they are better than systems that specifically target a setting.

BRP most definitely does not suck, though it is better for human and high adventure power levels than "not-quite-godlike" power levels.  It is far and away my favorite universal system.

SW is probably closer to what you are describing - and many people think that it does not suck. It does have an impressive variety of unique and creative settings.  It goes from pulpy to super pulpy, but may leave off super low-level gritty and godlike.

Fudge can do just about anything, but it is not really a game, it is more of a game design kit, and it doesn't have many published settings that I am aware of.

D&D, mentioned above, is a pretty awesome option.  I never thought of it as a universal system. But yeah, there are tons of adaptations.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;907464Are your players role-players? Wargamers? Powergamers? Do they want to create stuff in their world? Do they want to sit quiet while you tell them a story and tell them what their character does, and they just roll dice for you?

I'll go with (C): All of the above.  :)

I have to deal with a variety of playstyles, but that's no big deal.

I'm going to suggest JAGS (Just Another Game System).  It's like a more structured GURPS that doesn't have some of the quirks that are endemic to GURPS.  It's pretty well supported for an independent game.

I'd suggest Star Cluster 3 but you probably want more of the low tech / fantasy end, for which there's a standalone version called The Book of Jalan.

I agree with Madprofessor: BRP is excellent, even at high levels (I have used it for some serious kick-axe Conan games) but probably not quite God-like level.

Quote from: noman;907468I'll go with (C): All of the above.  :)

I have to deal with a variety of playstyles, but that's no big deal.

I guess you just need any rules then that have all kinds of setting books for it. Just no GURPS and the others you mentioned. Find out from the players which setting/genre they want to play in. Then get the closest setting book that has separate rules in another book. I'm thinking Savage Worlds stuff.

SW has rules for supers but the scale feels off. There really isn't that much difference between strong and super strong in feel. Hero does universal well except for gritty. It can be done but it is such a hassle that it is easier to just go with Gurps. ORE handles the scaling well. I like EABA also but haven't plugged in Supers yet to see how it plays.

Sounds like Savage Worlds

Quote from: noman;9074201. It's a true universal system, meaning there's a core rulebook for it that's independent of any setting.

2. It dosen't suck*.

3. It's got settings for it, preferably a lot of settings...preferably a lot of awesome settings.

4. The system is capable of handling character power levels ranging from low-level dudes to almost-but-not-quite godlike.  This is the key point for my criteria.

5. Point (4) supersedes point (3).  If I can find a system that can handle very high power levels, but no settings, I'll consider it.

Hero systems fits all of these.  The corebook has no setting.  There is a ton of setting and genre stuff available for it.  It can handle a wide range of power levels.  It was originally a super hero system.

I think both EABA2 and Savage Worlds would deal with it, though arguably. Both have the issue that even fights between very powerful beings would be quite lethal, and it's even more a matter of outsmarting the opposition.
In the end, I think it depends on how much crunch you want, since EABA2 is slightly higher.

Here's me harping on about my favourite game again: go for Mythras, the recently renamed RuneQuest 6 iteration of BRP. Mythras Imperative, the 32 page quickstart, is available for free download to try it out. It's specifically system neutral, dealing with everything from Stone Age to far future. There are tons of good settings from The Design Mechanism, but conversion for any of the myriad other BRP settings is a breeze. Luther Arkwright, a supplement from TDM, specifically addressed genre-bending, reality-hopping play. The core system which is about to be rereleased as Mythras includes magic systems to model pretty much any fantasy you want. There are free firearms and vehicles rules.
The system is at its best I would say modelling fairly gritty human-level stuff, but I think it can play high powered characters as well. Particularly useful are the Mysticism rules to model characters with superhuman abilities in a way that makes sense. Luther Arkwright adds psionics.
Honestly, brilliant system if you like a bit of crunch, and lends itself to deep RPing and detailed backgrounds, characters developing as distinct individuals rather than class-bound.

Quote from: markfitz;907551Here's me harping on about my favourite game again: go for Mythras, the recently renamed RuneQuest 6 iteration of BRP. Mythras Imperative, the 32 page quickstart, is available for free download to try it out. It's specifically system neutral, dealing with everything from Stone Age to far future. There are tons of good settings from The Design Mechanism, but conversion for any of the myriad other BRP settings is a breeze. Luther Arkwright, a supplement from TDM, specifically addressed genre-bending, reality-hopping play. The core system which is about to be rereleased as Mythras includes magic systems to model pretty much any fantasy you want. There are free firearms and vehicles rules.
The system is at its best I would say modelling fairly gritty human-level stuff, but I think it can play high powered characters as well. Particularly useful are the Mysticism rules to model characters with superhuman abilities in a way that makes sense. Luther Arkwright adds psionics.
Honestly, brilliant system if you like a bit of crunch, and lends itself to deep RPing and detailed backgrounds, characters developing as distinct individuals rather than class-bound.

Didn't the OP specify no d100? Oh wait, it was no GURPS.

Then indeed - Mythras would be my suggestion as well!

Quote from: markfitz;907551Here's me harping on about my favourite game again: go for Mythras, the recently renamed RuneQuest 6 iteration of BRP. Mythras Imperative, the 32 page quickstart, is available for free download to try it out. It's specifically system neutral, dealing with everything from Stone Age to far future. There are tons of good settings from The Design Mechanism, but conversion for any of the myriad other BRP settings is a breeze. Luther Arkwright, a supplement from TDM, specifically addressed genre-bending, reality-hopping play. The core system which is about to be rereleased as Mythras includes magic systems to model pretty much any fantasy you want. There are free firearms and vehicles rules.
The system is at its best I would say modelling fairly gritty human-level stuff, but I think it can play high powered characters as well. Particularly useful are the Mysticism rules to model characters with superhuman abilities in a way that makes sense. Luther Arkwright adds psionics.
Honestly, brilliant system if you like a bit of crunch, and lends itself to deep RPing and detailed backgrounds, characters developing as distinct individuals rather than class-bound.

It is also very compatible with Legend, reasonably compatible with RuneQuest, BRP and OpenQuest and quite compatible with games such as Stormbringer, Hawkmoon and Ringworld, so supplements for those games can be used fairly easily with Mythras, which greatly expands the number of settings.

I love RQ and I think it handles hyper competency really well but I haven't seen an add on for hyper powered. (It does a good bastman/daredevil but Gandolf/Flash is weak.)

Quote from: yosemitemike;907504Hero systems fits all of these.  The corebook has no setting.  There is a ton of setting and genre stuff available for it.  It can handle a wide range of power levels.  It was originally a super hero system.

I'm unaware of any settings for Hero save for Champions.  A quick search didn't turn up anything.  Would you be willing to point me towards these settings you mentioned?  I'd be willing to consider using hero if it has a lot of settings.

Quote from: noman;907575I'm unaware of any settings for Hero save for Champions.  A quick search didn't turn up anything.  Would you be willing to point me towards these settings you mentioned?  I'd be willing to consider using hero if it has a lot of settings.

If you like Fantasy, Hero 5th had at least three settings: Turakian Age (fairly generic high fantasy), Valdorian Age (gritty, 'Swords & Sorcery') and Atlantean Age (magical war machines, archmages, basically good for people who liked Exalted but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat).

JG

I just want to jot down a quick thanks to those who have replied so far.  I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

I'm looking at every suggestion that's been made, including those that don't perfectly meet my criteria.

I'm hoping for more input, if anyone happens to have anything else to add.

Question: is there an OSR style game that would handle high-power gameplay?*

* Note: Runequest derivatives have already been mentioned, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if it qualifies for OSR.

Quote from: noman;907577Question: is there an OSR style game that would handle high-power gameplay?*

Godbound. It's perfect for both high-power and VERY high-power gameplay since it supports both heroic mortals and actual cult-forming, world-changing demigod play. You can even check out a free PDF version here: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185959/Godbound-A-Game-of-Divine-Heroes-Free-Edition (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185959/Godbound-A-Game-of-Divine-Heroes-Free-Edition)

Quote from: noman;907575I'm unaware of any settings for Hero save for Champions.  A quick search didn't turn up anything.  Would you be willing to point me towards these settings you mentioned?  I'd be willing to consider using hero if it has a lot of settings.

There are several settings for both 5th and 6th edition.  Narosia (http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/531-narosia-sea-of-tears-fantasy-rpg-book-pdf/) is the current fantasy setting for 6th edition.  Star Hero has several settings in one book. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/566-project-wyrmstar-seven-settings-for-star-hero-six-edition-pdf/)  There's quite a bit of setting material available for 5th edition. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/category/3-hero-system-5th-edition/)  Click the genre titles on the left to see them.  Hero system is best known for its toolkit books but there are several published settings beyond the Champions universe.

To check out high powered SW, look no farther than:
Superpowers Companion (Supers, duh! But very adaptable)
Shaintar (Epic Fantasy)
Rifts (it's...err...Rifts? No seriously.)

There are probably other examples I'm not aware of. SW can definitely do high-powered. The trick is tooling the entire system upwards. That does make the tweaks less compatible with standard, low powered settings.

One thing I really like about SW is that it is FUN! You might look at all the fiddildy bits and wonder how, with its bennies and aces and wild dice and everything, but it all comes together in one damn good time for players and GMs alike. And that's the highest compliment I can give the game.

Quote from: James Gillen;907576If you like Fantasy, Hero 5th had at least three settings: Turakian Age (fairly generic high fantasy), Valdorian Age (gritty, 'Swords & Sorcery') and Atlantean Age (magical war machines, archmages, basically good for people who liked Exalted but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat).

JG

  Also Tuala Morn, a quasi-Celtic setting. I'd note that Kenneth Hite's review of Turakian Age described it as "vanilla, but high-quality, well-crafted French vanilla."

  For science fiction, Hero 5th had two--Terran Empire, which seemed to have something of a 'Traveller/classic gaming sci-fi' vibe, and Alien Wars for straight-up 'bug hunting'. Pulp Hero and Dark Champions contained setting information in their supplements.

  Black Wyrm Games also did a whole bunch of third-party Star Hero settings, and you can get them in a bundle on DriveThruRPG.

Again, thanks to everyone who's replied.  :)

I'm going to dismiss BRP-related systems.  No expert by far, but a little reading has led me to believe it would break under the pressure of the sort of very high-power campaign ideas I'm playing around with.  Excellent system otherwise, though.

I had no idea about Godborn (despite the giant thread about it).  Looks exactly like what I'm looking for.  I've downloaded the free version and will read it when I get some time.  At the very least, I may use it to supplement a primary-use system.

I'm leaning towards Savage Worlds.  Savage Suzerian seems to mod Savage Worlds in such a way as to allow for the power levels I'm looking for.  I'm having some problem getting to it though.  I tried to download Suzerian Continum (the free version) and the damn thing won't load.  That, plus I have no idea where to begin to get started with this line.  Annoying.

Hero 6E.  Okay, I stand corrected; there are some pretty good-looking settings for this.  Hero is back on the table for consideration.  I have a major point of concern, however:

What's the status of the company itself?  I get that Hero is less popular, but is the system still active?  Is the company still strong?  I don't care if it's not as popular as, say, Savage Worlds or FATE.  That's actually a plus for me.  I'm concerned about the life-cycle of the game itself.  I don't want to start throwing my cash at them only to discover the system has reached its end of life.

I did my own research on this and came up with nothing of any use.  I'd welcome any feedback for someone who's more in the know.  More than likely, my concerns are based on ignorance, and I'd like that ignorance rebutted.

Unfortunately, Hero Games is having some rough times. Most of the support has moved over to third-party (or hybrid first/third-party) Kickstarters and smaller PDFs. Many of those supplements are good (Larger Than Life, Strike Force), though, and are also including M&M and Savage Worlds stats as options or appendices.

As noted above, the famous Strike Force superhero setting had a Kickstarter for a revised version launched earlier this year, and the PDF will probably be out to the public very soon.

You might want to check out Palladium system also known as Rifts it can get pretty wild.
That is with the caveat that i have never personally used it.

Quote from: David Johansen;907472I'm going to suggest JAGS (Just Another Game System).  It's like a more structured GURPS that doesn't have some of the quirks that are endemic to GURPS.  It's pretty well supported for an independent game.

I'd suggest Star Cluster 3 but you probably want more of the low tech / fantasy end, for which there's a standalone version called The Book of Jalan.

So... Uh... I went to check out JAGS out of curiosity.  On the web site I found, it specifically links to two books on Amazon.

$80 for the first book. (https://www.amazon.com/JAGS-Revised-Hardcover-Marco-Chacon/dp/099693300X/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_img_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=AJ43PH7KNSPBP81S3RFH)  $120 for the second book. (https://www.amazon.com/JAGS-Archetypes-Hardcover-Marco-Chacon/dp/0996933026/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=61P7UZnsyAL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL480_SR354%2C480_&psc=1&refRID=AXYNS05QB8B0C0QAZ427)

Must be some game.

I stumbled on EABA. It looks like it has a lot of setting books for it. It has a generic/universal vibe to it. Reminds me more of algebra than of role-playing. But some people seem to swear by it and not at it.

Quote from: Celestial;907830So... Uh... I went to check out JAGS out of curiosity.  On the web site I found, it specifically links to two books on Amazon.

$80 for the first book. (https://www.amazon.com/JAGS-Revised-Hardcover-Marco-Chacon/dp/099693300X/ref=pd_rhf_se_p_img_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=AJ43PH7KNSPBP81S3RFH)  $120 for the second book. (https://www.amazon.com/JAGS-Archetypes-Hardcover-Marco-Chacon/dp/0996933026/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=61P7UZnsyAL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL480_SR354%2C480_&psc=1&refRID=AXYNS05QB8B0C0QAZ427)

Must be some game.

Yeah, small print run, lots of pages.

Here's a link to the free pdf on their web page: http://media.wix.com/ugd/0cf371_b65757fe93684024b559a8ed10b0d8bc.pdf

Hi!

I recommend looking at the Cypher System. I absolutely love it and the latest supplement "Gods of the Fall" amazing. I'm not sure how much crunch you want, but as a GM the Cypher System is an absolute dream. If you love to just GM and spew all the awesome from your head without a bunch of mechanical clutter, it's fantastic. If your players like to have agency and use their imaginations to narratively tweak their characters, it's awesome. At first glance it can seem "samey" or really sparse, but after digging in a seeing the brilliance of it, it's my new love.

Either way, have some great gaming!

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;907858Hi!

I recommend looking at the Cypher System. I absolutely love it and the latest supplement "Gods of the Fall" amazing. I'm not sure how much crunch you want, but as a GM the Cypher System is an absolute dream. If you love to just GM and spew all the awesome from your head without a bunch of mechanical clutter, it's fantastic. If your players like to have agency and use their imaginations to narratively tweak their characters, it's awesome. At first glance it can seem "samey" or really sparse, but after digging in a seeing the brilliance of it, it's my new love.

Either way, have some great gaming!

Thanks!

I'm looking at cypher system now.  And, oh, look at that.  Gods of the Fall.

Quote from: noman;907672I'm going to dismiss BRP-related systems.  No expert by far, but a little reading has led me to believe it would break under the pressure of the sort of very high-power campaign ideas I'm playing around with.  Excellent system otherwise, though.

It's your view, but I have been playing/running high level RuneQuest campaigns for years with very few problems.

Quote from: soltakss;908063I have been playing/running high level RuneQuest campaigns for years with very few problems.

Can you give an example of something 'high level' from one of your games? I think there's some context to what 'high level' means that varies from person to person... like, our Superworld games were generally low-powered stuff... pulp era heroes and such... but I did play in a one-off with cosmic types flying between worlds and battling asteroid golems and such, and that seemed to go just fine.

Quote from: soltakss;908063It's your view, but I have been playing/running high level RuneQuest campaigns for years with very few problems.

My view is based on relative ignorance.  I acknowledge this.

I haven't played much BRP or related outside of COC over a decade ago.  No doubt the system's changed.  Reading up on the current system, Mythras Imperative, has left me, to be honest, less than inspired.

But, I'm coming from a position of bias.  I'm aware of that.  I know BRP gets a lot of love at this forum, all of it deserved, but I'm that rare creature who's disliked every COC game he's ever been in.

I'll give it second look. :)

Quote from: Simlasa;908071Can you give an example of something 'high level' from one of your games? I think there's some context to what 'high level' means that varies from person to person... like, our Superworld games were generally low-powered stuff... pulp era heroes and such... but I did play in a one-off with cosmic types flying between worlds and battling asteroid golems and such, and that seemed to go just fine.

I assume your question was directed at soltakss, and not me.  That being said, I'll clarify my 4th criteria:

4. The system is capable of handling character power levels ranging from low-level dudes to almost-but-not-quite godlike. This is the key point for my criteria.

Almost-but-not-quite godlike.  Demigod level power levels.  Superman or Thanos level supers would be the low end.  The key here is an element of divinity.  I'm looking for a system that can handle high-level demigods to low-level gods or cosmic powers without breaking under the strain.

Pretty much all universal games can handle the low-mid-high-supers power levels easily.  I'm want to retain that functionally, and push it higher into low-mid-high-supers-demigod levels.

Quote from: noman;9074201. It's a true universal system, meaning there's a core rulebook for it that's independent of any setting.

2. It doesn't suck*.

3. It's got settings for it, preferably a lot of settings...preferably a lot of awesome settings.

4. The system is capable of handling character power levels ranging from low-level dudes to almost-but-not-quite godlike.  This is the key point for my criteria.

5. Point (4) supersedes point (3).  If I can find a system that can handle very high power levels, but no settings, I'll consider it.

Savage Worlds

1) You can run a ton of genres right out of the core book.

2) Been playing and running for 3+ years, really enjoying it for the most part.

3) Savage Worlds has an insane number of settings across a large swath of genres.

4) Savage Worlds characters are competent out the gate and granularly get better with every advance. However, certain settings such as the high fantasy Shaintar, Suzerain which adds Demigod rank, and Necessary Evil which treats super powers far differently than the core rules take characters to far greater heights of power.

5) I haven't read/played EABA so I can't give an opinion.

As for Savage Worlds I've run Shaintar and Necessary Evil. I've played a bit of Suzerain. The characters in all three have a bit more oomph than the ones in the more traditional 50 Fathoms (Lots of chase-based or large-scale ship combat in this one though) and Deadlands games that I played (although Harrowed were a bit overpowered compared to the rest of us.) Shaintar's characters start with 3 character points, more than the 2 standard and have access to much stronger edges by race. The power level starts higher but gets progressively bigger and bigger as you head into Heroic and Legendary. Suzerain has your characters bounding about time and space for the gods. To that end you get Telesmae that grant your characters additional abilities and serve as a way to communicate and teleport to their gods and in between realms. It also adds the Demigod rank and play far into the 100+ experience realm that most Savage Worlds settings have campaigns already wrapped up by the time you reach here. Necessary Evil has you starting with ten-twenty power points of super powers at Novice which make them much stronger than most Savage Worlds characters.

Savage Worlds also has Savage Rifts, which based on the old Rifts I've read, may have extreme power level differences from character to character that can make it well over the top. I haven't read Savage Rifts though.

Another thing about Savage Worlds is that it can be very cheap to get into. The core book is only 10 bucks. An entire table of 4 players and a GM could all have the core books for 50 bucks. A setting like 50 Fathoms or Necessary Evil might cost you as the GM 20 bucks, and you are good to go with a whole campaign. Once you are done, buy a new setting book and repeat.

Quote from: noman;908080Almost-but-not-quite godlike.  Demigod level power levels.  Superman or Thanos level supers would be the low end.  The key here is an element of divinity.

Superman seems pretty much god-like to me... short of creating the universe and planets... and straight up magical stuff like turning water into wine. I can't say I've encountered a game where Superman would be the 'low end', except maybe some 'god game' like Nobilis or Amber.

Hey, noman. We're about to start our Gods of the Fall game this weekend. I'm more than happy to chat about it or anything you'd like to know about the Cypher System.

Quote from: noman;907420Right out of the barn, I'm eliminating the following systems: GURPS, HERO, and FATE.  Why?  For reasons.**

Uh, isn't that like the entire list of them?  

Maybe a better question I should ask, what do you define as a 'universal' system, then?

Because to me, although you can make as many settings for it as you can, Savage Worlds isn't very 'generic' it promotes a pretty pulpy style, best suited for not quite superheroic level of comic fun.  (Which is not a bash on it, I love the system, personally, it's my go to when I do an Eberron game, and I've got a hit Pirates of The Spanish Main series, which blows my little mind.)

noman, I wanted to add that the Cypher System's got both Numenera and The Strange as stand-alone settings which are both tied extremely well to the system. I mention them because, if you're interested (in the system and Gods of the Fall), they made cheap PDFs (around two bucks) that give cool advice on mixing things together. I've mined gear, Foci, creatures and setting pieces from my entire collection and have tons of great bits that are both cool and remarkably easy to use.

Quote from: Simlasa;908100Superman seems pretty much god-like to me... short of creating the universe and planets... and straight up magical stuff like turning water into wine. I can't say I've encountered a game where Superman would be the 'low end', except maybe some 'god game' like Nobilis or Amber.

I seem to keep tripping over your posts, Sim.  I'm sorry.

You're right.  Supes is a bad example.  Wonder Woman or Green Lantern would have been a better example.

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread.  :)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908121Uh, isn't that like the entire list of them?

I don't believe so, no.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908121Maybe a better question I should ask, what do you define as a 'universal' system, then?

From my OP:

Quote from: noman;907420It's a true universal system, meaning there's a core rulebook for it that's independent of any setting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908121Because to me, although you can make as many settings for it as you can, Savage Worlds isn't very 'generic' it promotes a pretty pulpy style, best suited for not quite superheroic level of comic fun.  (Which is not a bash on it, I love the system, personally, it's my go to when I do an Eberron game, and I've got a hit Pirates of The Spanish Main series, which blows my little mind.)

"Generic" or "Universal", in this context, would refer to a game system's mechanical ability to handle a variety different types of settings.  For example, film-noir, high-fantasy, space opera, etc.  SW seems to be able to do that, so it falls under my definition of "universal".

I can't speak to the pulp element of the game, as I'm not experienced enough to judge.  As pulp is more a style of storytelling than anything else, I consider it a moot point.  My only concern is if it can mechanically do the job.  If by "pulpy" what is actaully meant is "Best for low-level characters" then that's another matter.  However, I've so far seen no evidence that SW can't handle high-level characters well, based only from my own reading of the rules (and not on extensive experience).

Another sincere thanks to everyone who's posted.  I'm reading up on everything everyone suggested.

I'll let this thread run for a few more days before calling it quits.  I'll write a final post to summarize my conclusions, so that anybody else who has a similar question can read both what's been suggested so far as well as my own decisions on the matter.

Another thing that you might give some thought to is if you find the perfect system that you like, you might take a look at setting books written for other systems to mine for ideas and/or simply convert.  There are a good number of conversion guides out on the web for a fair number of the major systems mentioned in this thread.  A not small number of people out there have Gurps settings books in their game library even if they have never played Gurps.  That also applies to many other settings books for other systems.

Quote from: noman;908078I know BRP gets a lot of love at this forum, all of it deserved, but I'm that rare creature who's disliked every COC game he's ever been in.

I liked one CoC game that I played in and disliked all the others, so I am with you there.

Quote from: Simlasa;908071Can you give an example of something 'high level' from one of your games? I think there's some context to what 'high level' means that varies from person to person... like, our Superworld games were generally low-powered stuff... pulp era heroes and such... but I did play in a one-off with cosmic types flying between worlds and battling asteroid golems and such, and that seemed to go just fine.

If you have every played RQ you might follow the examples.

Our RQ2 game had Rune Lords/Priests with between 150% and 250% skills, between 20 and 50 points of Rune Magic, one of my PCs had 300 points of POW Storage, we had special abilities that stacked with spells so that we were running with 20 APs when tooled up, which meant that most normal NPCs couldn't touch us, we had a recurring dream dragon NPC and after several encounters the GM had to tool him up so that he remained a challenge.

Our follow-up RQ3 campaign had the PCs going into Dorastor where they slowly cleaned it out. If you have ever seen the Dorastor Pack then you would know how difficult this is.

In our current campaign, the PCs have awakened dead deities, ventured into the Eternal Battle and Chaos Voids and survived, have fought giants 100 feet tall, have defeated dragons and have killed the Crimson Bat in such a way that it is unlikely to return in its previous form, they have raised the Sky Boat, HeroQuested to Heaven and Hell, can manipulate the runes as though they were playthings and more.

Now, we use the basic RQ3 ruleset, with some additions from HeroQuest and a few odds and sods. Very few house rules are required to allow for high level play, in my opinion. More info can be found at http://www.soltakss.com (http://www.soltakss.com).

I've run a bunch of Savage world's and it's a very good system. I'm not a fan of the Benny mechanic, I don't think the skills are granular enough, and players can quickly get to the point of auto succeeding.

Cypher system is cool but it's very coarse - your character only has a handful of special abilities / powers / skills

I'd love to use a D100 type system but there isn't really a currently supported finished generic system yet. BGB is not supported anymoreally. Mythras will hopefully become the basis of a generic system with genre packs but those dont exist yet.

CORPS!!!!

Which, um, may violate numba 2, possibly, and certainly violates numba tree.  And may even be a precursor to EABA, or at least vaguely related to it, but I just had to put it out there to revel in my vast library of rare and often unheralded games.


Now, for something a bit more honest? Try Unisystem.   Its got settings, from X-Files level weird mystery crap, to full on angel vs Cthulu Armageddon, to a setting fulla apes (never read it personally... seems fun), to a more legitimate x-files rip off bought from another studio, to eighty bazillion zombie settings.  Hell, it did Buffy the mudda fukken Vampire Slayer, and everyone and their cousin praised how that fucker ran high power and low power in the same game!  

Naturally I don't have a copy of Buffy.  Its too... mainstream.

Yeah, stick with CORPS.  You've never heard of it.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;908413I'm not a fan of the Benny mechanic, I don't think the skills are granular enough, and players can quickly get to the point of auto succeeding.

That was my experience of it when I played it... though I also blame the GM for much of the handwaving of danger and consequence... handing out too many Bennies.  

QuoteI'd love to use a D100 type system but there isn't really a currently supported finished generic system yet. BGB is not supported anymoreally.

Meh... there are still PDFs available and enough variety amongst BRP and its related systems that it covers most genres... westerns, scifi, horror, fantasy, post-apocalypse, espionage. Good fan-produced stuff on the forums. I've probably already got more than I'll ever use.

Is there anyone here that runs D100 / BRP as their go to
System?

I've always wanted to use Wild Talents but I would always be building everything myself

Fate is neat but declarations and aspect scope drive me nuts.

Quote from: Spike;908414CORPS!!!!

...
Yeah, stick with CORPS.  You've never heard of it.

One of my favorite systems. But one that's fallen off my list because I've only ever managed to convince one group to play it.  That was even 1st Ed, before it became a universal system.

Quote from: Spike;908414CORPS!!!!

Which, um, may violate numba 2, possibly, and certainly violates numba tree.  And may even be a precursor to EABA, or at least vaguely related to it, but I just had to put it out there to revel in my vast library of rare and often unheralded games.


Now, for something a bit more honest? Try Unisystem.   Its got settings, from X-Files level weird mystery crap, to full on angel vs Cthulu Armageddon, to a setting fulla apes (never read it personally... seems fun), to a more legitimate x-files rip off bought from another studio, to eighty bazillion zombie settings.  Hell, it did Buffy the mudda fukken Vampire Slayer, and everyone and their cousin praised how that fucker ran high power and low power in the same game!  

Naturally I don't have a copy of Buffy.  Its too... mainstream.

I literally LOL'd at this.  Thank you.  I've played a bit with Witchcraft, and did not like.  I'll take another look at Unisystem in general.

Quote from: Spike;908414Yeah, stick with CORPS.  You've never heard of it.

I own it.  :p

And EABA.  All of it.  I mean, All Of It.

Except to BTRC's latest supplement, which I can't get right now becuase I've got to spend that money on whatever the crap I end up deciding to go with.

I plan on plugging EABA in my final post on this topic.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;908424Is there anyone here that runs D100 / BRP as their go to
System?

Me... I run a game Magic World game online and play a PC in another one. Not at ultra-high power levels though, more like Warhammer-esque.

Quote from: noman;908221"Generic" or "Universal", in this context, would refer to a game system's mechanical ability to handle a variety different types of settings.  For example, film-noir, high-fantasy, space opera, etc.  SW seems to be able to do that, so it falls under my definition of "universal".

So if that's the case, then yeah, Savage Words counts, as does M&M 3e (You can run other genres in it, because superheroes covers a whole range of genres within itself, and there are fantasy and science fiction-y settings that can be superheroic, but have none of the tropes), Basic Roleplaying system.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;908424Is there anyone here that runs D100 / BRP as their go to
System?

RQ3ish is my default system. I have been running campaigns in it for 20 years and playing RQ for a lot longer.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;908424I've always wanted to use Wild Talents but I would always be building everything myself

RQ/BRP/D100 is very customisable and rules from one system can be easily ported into other rules systems.

If you wrote the basic rules for Wild talents then the actual Talents themselves would just be add-ons.

Soltakss what do you use when you've got characters w/ powers (Vampires, Low Level Supers, Psychics)

Quote from: PencilBoy99;908508Soltakss what do you use when you've got characters w/ powers (Vampires, Low Level Supers, Psychics)

It depends.

For Supers, I would use HeroQuest as D100 doesn't really work with SuperHeroes. Yes, I have SuperWorld and it just didn't work for me.

For Psychics I would probably use Legend:SciFi for Space Opera Psychics, but heroQuest would probably work just as well

For Vampires, I like the RuneQuest version of vampires and have played with them in Glorantha as NPCs for years. For real world vampires I would probably just adapt the RuneQuest version.

Quote from: soltakss;908535For Psychics I would probably use Legend:SciFi for Space Opera Psychics, but heroQuest would probably work just as well

Legend had a scifi sourcebook? I can't seem to find any reference to that... was it a fan-made thing?

Quote from: Spike;908414CORPS!!!!

Which, um, may violate numba 2, possibly, and certainly violates numba tree.  And may even be a precursor to EABA, or at least vaguely related to it, but I just had to put it out there to revel in my vast library of rare and often unheralded games.


Now, for something a bit more honest? Try Unisystem.   Its got settings, from X-Files level weird mystery crap, to full on angel vs Cthulu Armageddon, to a setting fulla apes (never read it personally... seems fun), to a more legitimate x-files rip off bought from another studio, to eighty bazillion zombie settings.  Hell, it did Buffy the mudda fukken Vampire Slayer, and everyone and their cousin praised how that fucker ran high power and low power in the same game!  

Naturally I don't have a copy of Buffy.  Its too... mainstream.

Yeah, stick with CORPS.  You've never heard of it.

Quote from: Brander;908430One of my favorite systems. But one that's fallen off my list because I've only ever managed to convince one group to play it.  That was even 1st Ed, before it became a universal system.

Just to ask whats the system look like???
As Iv never heard of it before.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908444So if that's the case, then yeah, Savage Words counts, as does M&M 3e (You can run other genres in it, because superheroes covers a whole range of genres within itself, and there are fantasy and science fiction-y settings that can be superheroic, but have none of the tropes), Basic Roleplaying system.

For M&M second edition, there was a sourcebook called Warriors & Warlocks, which was about Fantasy, but still counted as M&M because it was the kind of Fantasy you saw in older comic books like The Warlord and Arion, Lord of Atlantis.  It was actually very good, and with the M&M rules and single D20 mechanic, it doesn't quite play as being D&D, even though it still uses a D20 core.

JG

Quote from: Simlasa;908542Legend had a scifi sourcebook? I can't seem to find any reference to that... was it a fan-made thing?

Not yet, but I am working it ...

Quote from: noman;9080804. The system is capable of handling character power levels ranging from low-level dudes to almost-but-not-quite godlike. This is the key point for my criteria.

Almost-but-not-quite godlike.  Demigod level power levels.  Superman or Thanos level supers would be the low end.  The key here is an element of divinity.  I'm looking for a system that can handle high-level demigods to low-level gods or cosmic powers without breaking under the strain.

TSR's Marvel Superheroes (MSH) It may be presented as a superhero RPG. But by its very nature and scope it is a universal system. Normal humans? Can do. Demigods? Can do. Sword & Sorcery? Can do. Western? Road Warrior? James Bond? Pirates? Space Opera? Can do.

Quote from: Simlasa;908542Legend had a scifi sourcebook? I can't seem to find any reference to that... was it a fan-made thing?

Legend doesn't but RQ6 has Luther Arkwright which is packed with psionics and supertech.

There's also a Star Wars conversion floating around, IIRC, but I don't have a link right now.

And I don't recall which author (Loz or Pete) posted a while back that he run a Iain Banks' Culture game using RQ6. Now there's a licence I'd like to see!

Quote from: kosmos1214;908550Just to ask whats the system look like???
As Iv never heard of it before.

:Hipster:

Well....


Actually, off the top of my head I can't say too terribly much.  Point buy character creation, I recall and more importantly a very interesting skill system, using cascades.  Lemme explain... no, that will take too long... I'll sum up

So you buy a skill. Say "Science"... for the record skills seem to go to about ten or so, with exponential costs, so you're probably not going to buy it higher than, say, four.  

So you can do any science stuff at all at a skill of four. No, I don't recall exactly how you check your skills, but a four is medium poor. But that's okay, right?

See, you can buy a specialty to Science... lets make up a skill... hmm.. how about 'Chemistry'? That sounds sciency, right? You can buy this specialty to half the main skill, so up to 2, which is actually damn cheap. Of course, a skill of two sucks donkey balls (get thee to Tijuanna!!!), but that's cool, because you add that too your main science skill of 4, giving you a six, which is pretty good, but not earth shattering.

Now, it IS possible to spin off a further specialty of Chemistry, with the GM's permission. Lets say you have 'Improvized Explosive, Macguiver Style!', which sounds pretty lame, but whatever.

So you can only have THAT at HALF of Chemistry, so only a one, right? BUt you STACK it with Science and Chemistry, which gives you a seven, which ain't half bad!



There are also advantages and disadvantages, but they were slightly wonky as I recall. Nothing too earth shattering in design, mind you. Just... not well thought out.


Mind you, the entire Game Line takes up less shelf space than a single D&D book.  The Main Book is about a thick as a Pathfinder Adventure Path module.

Quote from: The Butcher;908684Legend doesn't but RQ6 has Luther Arkwright which is packed with psionics and supertech.

Yep, Luther Arkwright was a favorite comic series and the RQ6 book is really nicely done. Multiversal espionage pretty much requires a fairly universal set of rules to cover the various tech-levels.

Quote from: Spike;908714:Hipster:

Well....


Actually, off the top of my head I can't say too terribly much.  Point buy character creation, I recall and more importantly a very interesting skill system, using cascades.  Lemme explain... no, that will take too long... I'll sum up

So you buy a skill. Say "Science"... for the record skills seem to go to about ten or so, with exponential costs, so you're probably not going to buy it higher than, say, four.  

So you can do any science stuff at all at a skill of four. No, I don't recall exactly how you check your skills, but a four is medium poor. But that's okay, right?

See, you can buy a specialty to Science... lets make up a skill... hmm.. how about 'Chemistry'? That sounds sciency, right? You can buy this specialty to half the main skill, so up to 2, which is actually damn cheap. Of course, a skill of two sucks donkey balls (get thee to Tijuanna!!!), but that's cool, because you add that too your main science skill of 4, giving you a six, which is pretty good, but not earth shattering.

Now, it IS possible to spin off a further specialty of Chemistry, with the GM's permission. Lets say you have 'Improvized Explosive, Macguiver Style!', which sounds pretty lame, but whatever.

So you can only have THAT at HALF of Chemistry, so only a one, right? BUt you STACK it with Science and Chemistry, which gives you a seven, which ain't half bad!



There are also advantages and disadvantages, but they were slightly wonky as I recall. Nothing too earth shattering in design, mind you. Just... not well thought out.


Mind you, the entire Game Line takes up less shelf space than a single D&D book.  The Main Book is about a thick as a Pathfinder Adventure Path module.

Huh sounds kind of interesting if a but gamey.
Any way thanks

Aaaand, I'm back.

Sorry for the delay.  I know it may have seemed like I was ignoring my own thread.  I had important, noman things to do.

Again, a very warm thanks for everyone that contributed to this thread.

I've had some time to consider my options and do a little reading.  I'm writing this post for anyone else who comes along with a similar issue.  If you are, and you happen to come across this thread, I recommend you explore every option that was mentioned, including those I chose to dismiss.

General thoughts

First, I've chosen to focus on universal systems because I find (A) I enjoy them more and (B) IME, they usually do as well or better at emulating a given setting than setting-specific game systems.  Now, I know this statement may be met with some debate, and that's fine.  This is just my opinion.  I've simply found that I do better with universal systems than I do with setting or genre specifc ones.

Second, the two grandaddies of universal systems, HERO and GURPS, were not chosen from the beginning.  Why?  While both games are capable of creating very nearly any conceivable character, both systems have points of concern for me.  I won't go into detail about what these concerns are because I don't want to be seen as harshing on these excellent systems.  I just don't like.  For reasons.  Moving on.

Fate was likewise eliminated from the running from the start.  Why?  I simply don't like.  Subjective, personal preference.  Again, moving on.

What I use for "normal" powered games

Next, I'll deviate here to plug two game systems I do really like: EABA (http://www.btrc.net/eabav2) and GenreDiversion (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=23).

About a year or so ago (?) I replaced GURPS (which I used to use, but eventually came to dislike) with EABA.  EABA is a rules-medium/heavy system that scratches my crunch itch.  It has replaced GURPS as a universal rules-medium/heavy system.  I have no real complaints about the system, I like the way it does things, and the settings are excellent.

About the same time, I discovered GenreDivision.  GenreDiversion is a rules-light/medium system that satisfies my need for a light game for when I'm strapped for time.  I really like this system.  It's fast, easy for players to learn, and easy to mod.  Plus, settings!

I use both games for any game that involves characters that range from low-level adventurers (of any genre) to mid-to-high level adventurers (supers, etc.).  EABA is my goto if I want crunch, a long campaign, and I have the time.  GenreDiversion is my goto if I want fast, a shortish campaign, and I'm short on time.

However, neither of these systems do especially well with the very high power levels I described above.  They tend to bend, and sometimes break, under the strain.  Thus, I'm looking for a universal system that can handle this kind of power level easily.  This narrows my options considerably.

Options for very-high power levels

I'll need a system that (A) Already allows for demi-god level play, or (B) can be easily modded in such a way (through supplements) to do so.

This is what I've found.

Godborn.  Made to order.  Not a universal system, but it could easily be ported to other OSR games.  The fact that its OSR isn't really a selling point for me, but neither is it a negative.  The game seems excellent after an initial read.  First choice.

Savage Worlds + Savage Suzerian.  Suzerian mods Savage Worlds in such a way as to allow for demi-god level play.  Players can work their way up to that level, or start a campaign at that level.  It allows for cross-genre world hopping, cosmic level adventure and intrigue, and just seems packed with goodness.  It helps that the few times I've actually played SW, I've enjoyed it immensely.  Second choice.

Cyper System + Gods of the Fall.  I can't write much about this other than to say an initial read of the free versions seem promising.  I haven't played any Cyper System games, and haven't had a chance to do a throughout read.  However, it seems to satisfy my criteria.  Third choice.

Well, that's it.  Again, thanks to one and all.

QuoteAnd I don't recall which author (Loz or Pete) posted a while back that he run a Iain Banks' Culture game using RQ6. Now there's a licence I'd like to see!

Correct. Pete's run it a few times, and I've played in it. The game operates at Ship/Mind level (for those uninitiated in Banks' Culture, ships and Minds are city-size, hyper intelligent AIs) and Avatar level, for smaller focused proceedings. Works very well.

It's not technically universal, but Wild Talents: Progenitor can handle pretty high level characters.

My go-to system when I can't find an existing system that fits my needs is Open D6 / Mini 6.  Since it's designed as a highly customizable toolkit, it can be modified to do whatever you want it to do.

Quote from: James Gillen;908559For M&M second edition, there was a sourcebook called Warriors & Warlocks, which was about Fantasy, but still counted as M&M because it was the kind of Fantasy you saw in older comic books like The Warlord and Arion, Lord of Atlantis.  It was actually very good, and with the M&M rules and single D20 mechanic, it doesn't quite play as being D&D, even though it still uses a D20 core.

JG

I've been looking at M&M2e as a universal system. Got that Warriors and Warlocks book and it looks like it will serve well. The Mecha and Manga book also goes a long way covering other genres.

Quote from: Omega;908680TSR's Marvel Superheroes (MSH) It may be presented as a superhero RPG. But by its very nature and scope it is a universal system. Normal humans? Can do. Demigods? Can do. Sword & Sorcery? Can do. Western? Road Warrior? James Bond? Pirates? Space Opera? Can do.

How well does this run as a universal? Are there fan-made supplements like Bond or Space Opera?

I would usually recommend the Hero System. Unfotunatley the Vol 1 of the 6E core set is out of print. So either you pay the high prices sold by Amazon sellers. Or either buy the PDf. Or once you have the PDF print it out yourself. Except it can be very pricey. It's at least 300+ page sorucebook. Their 5E revised but even that is both out of print and somewhat expensive as well.

Quote from: Jeffrywith1e;933685How well does this run as a universal? Are there fan-made supplements like Bond or Space Opera?

What makes it universal is if you're running a Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD kinda game - nothing changes except the context of the adventure.

Space Opera? Guardians of the Galaxy. Micronauts. Kree-Skrull War - system is the same. Nothing changes.

FASERIP can handle anything. Nothing really needs changing unless you wanna retool the Karma system. It was way ahead of its time and it still rocks mightily.

Quote from: tenbones;933933FASERIP can handle anything. Nothing really needs changing unless you wanna retool the Karma system. It was way ahead of its time and it still rocks mightily.

No, no it can't.  It can barely handle 70's style superheroes, to make it work for more modern styles, you need to rip out whole chunks out of certain parts.  Especially the Karma awards section.  There are no 'mook' rules, because the moment you can spend Karma for the bad guys, they suddenly double their resistances.

But that's my current experience, your house rules can and probably has fixed those.