It has been pointed out to me that I tend to optimize characters too much.  I did not realize this until I looked back at things, but it is true:

I am a compulsive character optimizer.

There.  I said it.

Any other hardcore CO'ers on this board who want to step forward?  Maybe we can begin a support group or something.  I know it's not that hard to do, but it is beginning to interfere with my ability to give other players character creation advice, something I was formerly good at.  I'm a good character concept guy, and good at bringing that concept to fruition through mechanics, but I fear now the mechanics are starting to overshadow the concept.

Any advice or snipes from the peanut gallery?

I too *sob* can sometimes *sob* fall into this catagory. I start off with a character concept *sob* then somewhere, *sob* somehow, in the course of the game *sob* i change it to make the character better *sob* and by the end of it all *sob* the character is nothing like what i intended it to be *break down uncontrollably*

I need help!!!!!!!

My name is Steve, and i am a character optimiser.

Hi Steve, and thanks for coming to the meeting.  Admission of the problem is the first step towards solving it.

What I meant in the first post was that I'm fantastic at making mechanically powerful characters, a skill which has been very useful in helping those less rules inclined hang with everyone at the table, and at making character concept and character playability match up.  What's become the issue, however, is that I find it hard for me to not optimize, and more disturbing to me is that I find the alternatives increasingly unfathomable.

To put it another way:

I'm the DM in a game that has only two real optimizers in it, and one of them is me.  I helped one of the other players make her character, and so I know for a fact that there are two very well optimized characters and two run by players in it for the storyline/dramatic progression who could give a shit about the mechanics.  My problem is that I find it difficult to give advice to these players without being ham-handed.  I want to give appropriate treasure awards, items the players will appreciate and actually use, but without forcing them down what I percieve to be the "best" path to mechanical power.

Not everyone wants those boots of striding and springing.  Some people want boots of the winterlands or a ring of sustenance instead.  That sort of stuff.  I wouldn't ever think of getting a ring of animal friendship over a ring of counterspelling, but that's exactly the sort of thing some of my players love and want.

It frustrates me that I can't think like a roleplayer very well anymore without simultaneously thinking like a number cruncher, because it means I can only really empathize with one of my players instead of all four, and I'm afraid it may result in me unfairly skewing the game towards his character by virtue of not really being in synch with what the other 3 want.

ROFLMAO .... Sorry guys... I have the exact opposite problem when I'm on the player side. I run my character advancement exclusively by concept and as per what the character would do ... which sometimes lead to under par power, reduced survivability, and lack of adaptation to the challenges offered (like, say, playing a specialist wizard with no skills outside lore instead of a more combat powerful sorcerer, and pursuing arcane might above all else rather than multiclassing) .

Fortunately when I'm on the Master side of the screen, I have some basic notions of optimisation, so my monsters and NPC's are not pushovers.

But yeah, I understand players wanting funny, folkesy equipment rather than more generic, purely combat utilitarian stuff. Those cute items allow you to handle sides of the character's life that go beyond the combat grid, and enhance the role playing experience... If, as a DM, you're a combat monster, I suggest a good long talk with your players and reevaluation of campaign focus, and possibly the XP award system.

Quote from: Radu the WandererIt frustrates me that I can't think like a roleplayer very well anymore without simultaneously thinking like a number cruncher, because it means I can only really empathize with one of my players instead of all four, and I'm afraid it may result in me unfairly skewing the game towards his character by virtue of not really being in synch with what the other 3 want.

I've got the opposite problem. There are two players in my current group who derive fun from the whole optimizing aspect of the game. I don't really dig the mechanical part of rpgs and the other five players are more interested in the roleplaying part.

I have always believed it's part of my job as a gm to see that all of the players are having fun.Sometimes in the rush of the game, I tend to forget that there is a small minority in the group who would like something more tangible for their characters other than a great storyline.

I'm always careful to include stuff in the adventures, be it treasure, opportunities to accumulate more xp/skill points whatever. I do this because I realize that unattended to, this problem has the potential to blow up into a major issue for these players.

Regards,
David R

QuoteHelp! I optimize too much!

:confused: I wasn't aware that this was possible?

Of course I can stop optimizing anytime I want to. No, really. :deviousgrin:

Come now, Blakkie.   You can do it!

Let's draw up a charter for our 3 members, shall we?  (Yes, I am making all optimizers de-facto members).

This is an open and supportive group of people who wish other people would give a shit about the fucking rules and goddamn learn them already instead of writing that novel of a character background.  Is it too much to ask for people to come to games PREPARED TO PLAY?  To all of these people, I say:

LEARN YOUR GODDAMN SPELLS IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A CASTER YOU LAZY FUCK!

 And you, Mr. "How do I trip again," would it kill you to read the combat chapter of the PHB every once in a while?  Oh, oops!  I mean you are safe here... no one will mock you unless you suggest that clerics or druids aren't ludicrously powerful or that the ranger is a character class 20 levels long or that multiclassing is cheesy and abberrant or that fighters are worth a damn past level 4 or that psionics are broken and needlessly complicated or...

:heh:  I am such a dick.  :  :ponder:  Maybe that can be our motto!

Quote from: Radu the WandererCome now, Blakkie.   You can do it!

Let's draw up a charter for our 3 members, shall we?  (Yes, I am making all optimizers de-facto members).

This is an open and supportive group of people who wish other people would give a shit about the fucking rules and goddamn learn them already instead of writing that novel of a character background. Is it too much to ask for people to come to games PREPARED TO PLAY?  To all of these people, I say:

LEARN YOUR GODDAMN SPELLS IF YOU WANT TO PLAY A CASTER YOU LAZY FUCK!

 And you, Mr. "How do I trip again," would it kill you to read the combat chapter of the PHB every once in a while?

Okay.   That I can get behind.

And as far as I'm concerned, when you are playing D&D (or any of it's multitude of variations), your characters are meant to be Professional Heroes and Adventurers. It's their job, and they should be good at it. Just like professionals in the Real World, they should be taking the most appropriate and specialized training, and purchasing the most useful and state-of-the-art equipment to allow them to do their job as best they can.

Oh God! I'm an optomiser,i don't know all the combat rules AND i'm not that up on all the spells. What kind of a monster am i?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Silly question here... but I thought optimising needed an in depth knowledge of the rules... I mean, you can hardly come up with megapowerful killer combos if you don't know how the various parts work, individually and together... so just how can you be an optimiser if you don't know how things work?

Let me provide an example of a n00b to D&D not realizing what it meant to optimize a character.

He character was a sorceress. The first thing she noticed is that everybody in the party had more hit points than herself. So her Goal became to get more hit points, because, dammit, she didn't want to DIE or anything! So right then at first level, she took Toughness. Yay, with her Con, now she had SIX whole hit points! Her other feat was, by the way, Self Suffecient.

Now, I tried explaining many times that you want to increase what you're good at, not increase what you're bad at... but it never sunk in.

Anyway, as she leveled, she took a couple more useless feats. She didn't see the point in metamagic (most ARE pretty lame). But the worst part was her skill points - she ONLY put skill points in skills the checks for which she had failed in the last session. So, time after time, she was putting skill points in her lowest cross-class skills. After all, her Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge Arcana were both "high enough" with bonuses of +6.

And her spell selection... good goddess, it was horrible. She wanted spells that sounded "neat." She hated spells that "just did hit point damage." Those spells were boring. Just use your imagination - I... I... I can't go on.

Then somebody introduced the concept of PrCs to her... and she read up on the ones that were available. She thought the Arcane Trickster sounded neat! Here come the rogue levels! With careful allocation of skill points, she was going to be able to take her first Arcane Trickster level at level 9 (I think). This was fun for her because, at that time, she was the only rogue of the party (though they were encountering 6th level traps and she was only a 1st level rogue with a Search bonus of +2).

Around this time she took a feat that allowed her familiar (an owl) to talk. I gave it a surfer dude personality, which she loves.

Another PC died and rolled up a Scout, and burned a couple feats getting Open Lock and Disable Device. Ms. Sorceress didn't like that he was butting in on her territory, doing all the roguey stuff, and being 10x better at it than she was.

Since, by this time, her character build was approaching hopeless, around 9th level I allowed her to re-spec her character to full sorceress, and reallocate her skill points. I let her drop Self-Suffecient and pick up a feat she'd actually USE instead.

I try very hard to make sure my players have fun, but to some, especially n00bs, the very concept of min-maxing and creating an effective character is totally alien. They just want to pick the next shiny, neat looking thing and move on.

I'm confused. Why is character optimization a problem?

Quote from: dereeOh God! I'm an optomiser,i don't know all the combat rules AND i'm not that up on all the spells. What kind of a monster am i?

An inept optimizer? :mischief:

It's not really a problem, just an observation I had that I can't NOT optimize anymore.

It's not so much that it's a problem, but more that I can't really relate to people who don't optimize anymore.  I really pissed off one of my players when I tried to help them with their character, a Ninja/Warlock hybrid.  I suggested a few tweaks here and there and they flew back with, "Well, now that you're creating my character, you want to play it for me, too?"

It was a little surprising, and inspired the first post.  I have since found the responses to be quite amusing, especially the story about the sorcerer who just wouldn't listen.  It reminds me of some of my early play experiences with 3rd ed, which I'm glad to have put behind me.  It is interesting to see this turn into a small scale sarcasm off between COers and Drama Queens--- Drama Queen being used instead of Roleplayer, as the idea that you can't optimize and rp at the same time is a complete and utter fallacy.  Hence, the term Drama Queen to refer to those who obstinately refuse to learn the rules or take mechanical advice, because "it's not in character."

I'm pretty goddamn sure if someone gave me a gun in a knife fight, I'd take it, but then again, that's "In Character" for me.

Quote from: Radu the Wanderer...as the idea that you can't optimize and rp at the same time is a complete and utter fallacy.

Quoted. For. Truth.