TheRPGSite

Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

Ouch. Picky picky.

Well, HERO fails your criteria on 2 and 4.
Mutants and Masterminds fails on 2, 4, and 6
Strange Synergy fails like all of yours except 4.
TFOS fails on 3 and 8.
Münchhausen fails on 1 and 8.


Spirit of the Century maybe? You only need 4 dice, so you could keep track of your Fate points with a note pad.

-Frank

I know, it does seem like I'm being picky but in my defence a lot of this stuff is needed because of the group I'm in.  We have one player who can only drop in once every month or so, everyone (almost) is sick of D20 games.  We have virtually no table space and only I read comics!  The players would like to play but coming up with concepts and powers is hard for them.

I take your point about SOTC.  I used to have it but although I like FATE I didn't like it too much but I can't remember why and it doesn't have the random chargen.  I was hoping that ICONS would be more FATE(y) than it ended up being with Taggable scene Aspects etc.. but I'm not sure it would be a good fit unless there are some extra bits planned for it?

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

SUPERS! (+Sourcebook).

It doesn't do 3 & 4 (although chargen is fast, so it meets half of 4).

You can get the pdf here

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=1460

or the book, here

http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1016378

Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I know that Savage Worlds is basically level based (they call it Ranks: Novice, Veteran, Seasoned, etc.) It also uses cards for initiative. While I think it's a nice little game it seems to fail your criteria. I don't know what's in the Super's companion, but people who I talk to regularly have told me its Necessary Evil with a few things like team advantages and some villain types/NPC's. I suspect it fails more than a few more of your criteria. I like Savage World+Necessary evil, but it doesn't seem to fit what you want.  It was also written so miniatures can be used or similar tokens on a battlmat (it uses bursts templates for some powers and weapons scaled to common sized  square measuring maps--its not absolutely necessary but it helps.)


Icon's doesn't seem to either, it doesn't have detailed rules for building--just skill lists and information on team building to have a group team. Having a determination pool for the group and such. Powers aren't hand wavey, and it uses the distances you seem to like. I really am enamored of Icon's I find it pretty much what I want from other peoples games. I have it pre-ordered and its sitting on my hard drive in PDF form from the pre-order, but its not ideal for me either. Still a solid game that I like. It has built in default random roll generation, but offers point building as an option. It does make use of common superhero tropes like catchphrases, which I find cool, but some people find corny or silly.

Bash UE is a wonderful little game with more crunch than the previous two. I'd rate them Icons (Lowest)--Bash (Highest) but with Savage worlds only a shade under Bash, and its not by much I'm talking about. It has gadget building rules, but bases seem to be more a matter of choosing advantages than "constructing" them. Albeit it comes closer than the other two, and it is a very nice game. The game uses 5x5' squares as their measurements, used on anything from graph paper to chess boards, to battle maps and suggest tracking things visually with tokens or miniatures (fold up types.) It comes closest to your criteria of the ones you list. Not ideal of course.

The old MSH (FaseRip, or the Unviersal Table) game has rules for everything you've asked for and its one of my favorites--mind you none of the games you've mentioned are "bad" to me, though they fail your criteria for the most part. I think DC heroes (MEGS) also has rules for inventing, and building devices.

I don't think any of them focus on player's who don't show up--I think they all expect you the GM to handle that by saying they're off in another dimension, get called away, or the like.

I know my own game H&S is too  abstract, and I neglected a few things like bases and inventions. That won't be true of 2nd edition but that's over a year away at this point.  Truth & Justice also neglects those aspects and is more solid and detailed than H&S but fails your criteria.

By the way, thanks for such information. I don't know how many people I've helped try to find the right superhero game, who I've had to ask  and narrow down what they're after, but you've done a good job of being specific.

Marvel Superheroes is an old and long OOP game it has built in random roll PC's (with options for just modeling what you want.) It has rules for dying, it has rules for kitbashed inventions and base building (although the latter isn't like complex or very detailed its still far better than most games at it.) It uses vague "areas" for movement and ranges--based on its maps, or a range ruler if you want, but pretty much an area is usually to the nearest major barrier (outdoors its 44 yards, indoors its barriers, up or town its "floors") but it gives real world measures to help visualize they're not so specific that it matters. It can be found on more than one website, and there are a HUGE amount of resources for it.

Marvel Superheroes Advanced Set (the best version) (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/advanced-game-and-modules.html)

If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer, its one of my top two "not written by me.." superhero games and I've played it almost 20 years in some form.

Plus I'm more than willing to discuss other games, I don't own a few of them of course but I do try and follow them enough to get a good sense about what they do right or don't do.

I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator (http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/herogen/herogen.cgi). Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:

QuoteRadioactive Jack
Power(s): Extra appendage(s), Intuition

That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Quote from: Silverlion;388592Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I know that Savage Worlds is basically level based (they call it Ranks: Novice, Veteran, Seasoned, etc.) It also uses cards for initiative. While I think it's a nice little game it seems to fail your criteria. I don't know what's in the Super's companion, but people who I talk to regularly have told me its Necessary Evil with a few things like team advantages and some villain types/NPC's. I suspect it fails more than a few more of your criteria. I like Savage World+Necessary evil, but it doesn't seem to fit what you want.  It was also written so miniatures can be used or similar tokens on a battlmat (it uses bursts templates for some powers and weapons scaled to common sized  square measuring maps--its not absolutely necessary but it helps.)


Icon's doesn't seem to either, it doesn't have detailed rules for building--just skill lists and information on team building to have a group team. Having a determination pool for the group and such. Powers aren't hand wavey, and it uses the distances you seem to like. I really am enamored of Icon's I find it pretty much what I want from other peoples games. I have it pre-ordered and its sitting on my hard drive in PDF form from the pre-order, but its not ideal for me either. Still a solid game that I like. It has built in default random roll generation, but offers point building as an option. It does make use of common superhero tropes like catchphrases, which I find cool, but some people find corny or silly.

Bash UE is a wonderful little game with more crunch than the previous two. I'd rate them Icons (Lowest)--Bash (Highest) but with Savage worlds only a shade under Bash, and its not by much I'm talking about. It has gadget building rules, but bases seem to be more a matter of choosing advantages than "constructing" them. Albeit it comes closer than the other two, and it is a very nice game. The game uses 5x5' squares as their measurements, used on anything from graph paper to chess boards, to battle maps and suggest tracking things visually with tokens or miniatures (fold up types.) It comes closest to your criteria of the ones you list. Not ideal of course.

The old MSH (FaseRip, or the Unviersal Table) game has rules for everything you've asked for and its one of my favorites--mind you none of the games you've mentioned are "bad" to me, though they fail your criteria for the most part. I think DC heroes (MEGS) also has rules for inventing, and building devices.

I don't think any of them focus on player's who don't show up--I think they all expect you the GM to handle that by saying they're off in another dimension, get called away, or the like.

I know my own game H&S is too  abstract, and I neglected a few things like bases and inventions. That won't be true of 2nd edition but that's over a year away at this point.  Truth & Justice also neglects those aspects and is more solid and detailed than H&S but fails your criteria.

By the way, thanks for such information. I don't know how many people I've helped try to find the right superhero game, who I've had to ask  and narrow down what they're after, but you've done a good job of being specific.

Marvel Superheroes is an old and long OOP game it has built in random roll PC's (with options for just modeling what you want.) It has rules for dying, it has rules for kitbashed inventions and base building (although the latter isn't like complex or very detailed its still far better than most games at it.) It uses vague "areas" for movement and ranges--based on its maps, or a range ruler if you want, but pretty much an area is usually to the nearest major barrier (outdoors its 44 yards, indoors its barriers, up or town its "floors") but it gives real world measures to help visualize they're not so specific that it matters. It can be found on more than one website, and there are a HUGE amount of resources for it.

Marvel Superheroes Advanced Set (the best version) (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/advanced-game-and-modules.html)

If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer, its one of my top two "not written by me.." superhero games and I've played it almost 20 years in some form.

Plus I'm more than willing to discuss other games, I don't own a few of them of course but I do try and follow them enough to get a good sense about what they do right or don't do.

Firstly thank you for a wonderfully detailed and helpful answer.

I actually have Advanced MSH already but with the mapping and the Karma issue for morally ambiguous characters I rejected it out of hand.  Good game but maybe not right for this particular group unfortunately.

As a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?  The player in my group is a great guy, he has run a lot of games for us in the past and he still want's to participate.  Many games make no allowance for busy people instead they penalise them for not turning up.  As it happens this guy's career has taken off and he now travels all over the world but he still want's to game when he can.  Obviously you can go down the route of "I will give you X xp for a picture of your PC" or "Y xp for a detailed background" but you can only do that so many times.  How good would it be if that player could say "sorry guy's I'm away for three week's, my character is going to try and infiltrate The Directorate (or whatever cool organisation you are using) or I'm going to upgrade the base defences, compile a super villain database etc..  That would be so cool.  Evil Hat touched on this with extended contests in FATE 2.0 but I have not really seen any game do it really well and I've been gaming since 1979!

If H&S 2nd Edition did this I would buy it in a heartbeat! ;)

My criteria are quite specific because I've been thinking about this for months to address a very specific set of circumstances and then I wrote the opening post in about 5 minutes.  

I think it is probably down to BASH, ICONS or some kind of FATE hack.
It's early in the thread yet so someone else may have better idea though.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388596I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator (http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/herogen/herogen.cgi). Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:



That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Wow great resource Frank!  

I got..

The perverted Major Nimbus
Power(s): Reinforced skeleton, Electrical generation/control, Pyrokinesis
Source of powers: Extra-dimensional mutant

Seems a natural fit for a Risus type supers game?  

Maybe I'm overthinking this?

Quote from: EBMAs a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?

While I'm not the published game designer you asked, I am also a published game designer, and I can answer that question.

The usual reason is because many games dangle the advancement treadmill before players as an incentive to keep playing. To allow players to come in on every fourth session or so without problems, you're really going to want to play a game without advancement. I mean sure, Ars Magica can give you some benefits for having been sitting around in the lab for the last two seasons - but the amount of accounting involved will likely feel like a punishment to the player in question, or at best a shallow consolation prize (since the players actually showing up will have found Vis and gotten face time experience).

Fortunately, Superheroes as a genre caters well to the zero advancement paradigm. No one is weirded out if Superman doesn't change his gadgets or his powers for eight issues in a row. Outside of origin stories and major summer events, characters are pretty static in what they can do. So really you can take any functional Supers game and just straight up not award any XP. It works fine. HERO system gets a bit... off... after you pump 50 more points into the characters from their start point. Frankly, playing without advancement is kind of better. Certainly better if your players aren't showing up every session.

Remember, WoW is a popular game and it has advancement. But Counter Strike is also popular and characters do not advance between sessions. It's a perfectly viable model.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388602While I'm not the published game designer you asked, I am also a published game designer, and I can answer that question.

The usual reason is because many games dangle the advancement treadmill before players as an incentive to keep playing. To allow players to come in on every fourth session or so without problems, you're really going to want to play a game without advancement. I mean sure, Ars Magica can give you some benefits for having been sitting around in the lab for the last two seasons - but the amount of accounting involved will likely feel like a punishment to the player in question, or at best a shallow consolation prize (since the players actually showing up will have found Vis and gotten face time experience).

Fortunately, Superheroes as a genre caters well to the zero advancement paradigm. No one is weirded out if Superman doesn't change his gadgets or his powers for eight issues in a row. Outside of origin stories and major summer events, characters are pretty static in what they can do. So really you can take any functional Supers game and just straight up not award any XP. It works fine. HERO system gets a bit... off... after you pump 50 more points into the characters from their start point. Frankly, playing without advancement is kind of better. Certainly better if your players aren't showing up every session.

Remember, WoW is a popular game and it has advancement. But Counter Strike is also popular and characters do not advance between sessions. It's a perfectly viable model.

-Frank

.  

Agreed I'm perfectly fine with zero or slow advancement (change) in Supers games in particular.  It is totally in keeping with the source material.  I'm not really familiar with HERO though, I've played it but I didn't really get it.

I'm not suggesting that my player would feel exactly the same level of involvement or have as much fun as a character that can turn up regularly but that won't stop me trying to give him a chance to stay involved.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388596I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator (http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/herogen/herogen.cgi). Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:



That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Yeah, that's awesome. This is worth the link alone...

Sky Zombie
Power(s): Intangibility
Weapon: Power Net
Transportation: Spider Rickshaw

My first thought is using the new Basic Roleplaying book along with the old Superworld supplements that are still available as PDFs from Chaosium.
Simple, versatile, gritty, lower power levels, optional random generation (at least for the basic stats), no levels or classes, no clutter or need for miniatures.
Superworld was the RPG that 'inspired' the original Wild Cards stories.
 
Basic Roleplaying Central (http://basicroleplaying.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=36) has a nice download for doing City of Heroes... a low-level supers setting based on the MMORPG.

Quote from: EBM;388599I actually have Advanced MSH already but with the mapping and the Karma issue for morally ambiguous characters I rejected it out of hand.  Good game but maybe not right for this particular group unfortunately.

Well you know, if you like MSH but don't like mapping Karma to a character's morality, then just don't. Just give out Karma points like other systems give out Experience Points.

Quote from: Simlasa;388641My first thought is using the new Basic Roleplaying book along with the old Superworld supplements that are still available as PDFs from Chaosium.
Simple, versatile, gritty, lower power levels, optional random generation (at least for the basic stats), no levels or classes, no clutter or need for miniatures.
Superworld was the RPG that 'inspired' the original Wild Cards stories.
 
Basic Roleplaying Central (http://basicroleplaying.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=36) has a nice download for doing City of Heroes... a low-level supers setting based on the MMORPG.

Interesting...  how much Super's stuff is in the Basic book?  Isn't there a Supers book out for it already?  Can't remember the name.

Quote from: Silverlion;388592Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I second this. Marvel Superheroes is easy to learn and fast to get started. Not only that, but you can't beat the price (free). The books were released in pdf and are free / legal to download. Check out http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ (the other stuff menu has the downloads)

Quote from: Soylent Green;388651Well you know, if you like MSH but don't like mapping Karma to a character's morality, then just don't. Just give out Karma points like other systems give out Experience Points.

Hmmm I'm not sure about that, in my experience the Karma system is kind of the point of the game as it's not just used for XP.  In a morally ambiguous game where the players are villains I'm not sure it would work.  What I mean is that Karma is a reward for doing good things with penalties for doing bad things, if a villain had a flash of conscience and saved someone he would want rewarding for that in MSH.  

I wonder if it would be a case of altering the Karma awards to represent a grittier feel.  If the mission is to kill a dictator and the person who pulls the trigger loses a crap load of Karma, nobody will off him even though it may actually be the right thing to do?  Not sure about this for another reason as well.  If the Karma system did remain then any players with enough Karma could blow all their Karma and survive the bomb in their head that could be detonated for non-comliance etc..

Quote from: James McMurray;388658I second this. Marvel Superheroes is easy to learn and fast to get started. Not only that, but you can't beat the price (free). The books were released in pdf and are free / legal to download. Check out http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ (the other stuff menu has the downloads)

Thanks for the link!  I have all those downloaded already and I have a physical copy of the Advanced MSH Boxset.  I'm just not sure it's the right system for what I'm trying to do for this particular Campaign/Group.

Just change the fundamental nature of it (and call it xp). Instead of getting karma for stopping a robbery and losing karma for performing one, you get xp for either of them, assuming it fits the character and mission.

Or don't even tie xp to specifics acts anymore, instead awarding it based on progress towards goals, good roleplaying, etc.

It's been a while, but IIRC there's a section in the advanced book about changing how karma works in less heroic games.

If you intend to make the game transient-player friendly, you aren't going to be awarding any XP or Karma ever, so who cares?

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388664If you intend to make the game transient-player friendly, you aren't going to be awarding any XP or Karma ever, so who cares?

-Frank

Huh, sorry I don't understand.  Karma powers other stuff in the game so if you eliminate it and don't award it then you can't use big portions of the game so it's a moot point really.  Also I'm in favour of slowcharacter change over time or evolving/changing of powers etc.. but no growth ever!  No that's too far IMHO and not in keeping with the kind of comics I want to emulate or the game I want to run.

Quote from: James McMurray;388663Just change the fundamental nature of it (and call it xp). Instead of getting karma for stopping a robbery and losing karma for performing one, you get xp for either of them, assuming it fits the character and mission.

Or don't even tie xp to specifics acts anymore, instead awarding it based on progress towards goals, good roleplaying, etc.

It's been a while, but IIRC there's a section in the advanced book about changing how karma works in less heroic games.

It's been a while since I read mine.  I will break it out and take a look.  Thanks.

Quote from: EBM;388667Huh, sorry I don't understand.  Karma powers other stuff in the game so if you eliminate it and don't award it then you can't use big portions of the game so it's a moot point really.  Also I'm in favour of slowcharacter change over time or evolving/changing of powers etc.. but no growth ever!  No that's too far IMHO and not in keeping with the kind of comics I want to emulate or the game I want to run.

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to maintain parity between players who play every week and players who pop in and play once a month or less. There is exactly one way to do that: no advancement.

You can give people a pile of Fate Points or Edge or Karma at the start of each session to burn through to power abilities if you want. But if you let people save anything from session to session you will have the infrequent players fall farther and farther behind. Setting advancement to zero is an inevitable consequence of your design goals.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388602While I'm not the published game designer you asked, I am also a published game designer, and I can answer that question.

The usual reason is because many games dangle the advancement treadmill before players as an incentive to keep playing. To allow players to come in on every fourth session or so without problems, you're really going to want to play a game without advancement. I mean sure, Ars Magica can give you some benefits for having been sitting around in the lab for the last two seasons - but the amount of accounting involved will likely feel like a punishment to the player in question, or at best a shallow consolation prize (since the players actually showing up will have found Vis and gotten face time experience).

Fortunately, Superheroes as a genre caters well to the zero advancement paradigm. No one is weirded out if Superman doesn't change his gadgets or his powers for eight issues in a row. Outside of origin stories and major summer events, characters are pretty static in what they can do. So really you can take any functional Supers game and just straight up not award any XP. It works fine. HERO system gets a bit... off... after you pump 50 more points into the characters from their start point. Frankly, playing without advancement is kind of better. Certainly better if your players aren't showing up every session.

Remember, WoW is a popular game and it has advancement. But Counter Strike is also popular and characters do not advance between sessions. It's a perfectly viable model.

-Frank

Also, I should point out that advancement in my own games* is by game year - whether or not the character is being played. Thus an occasional  player would not be in the least disadvantaged.

-clash

* Excluding Notice for rank advancement only - not skill/power advancement - in the In Harm's Way series of games.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388672I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to maintain parity between players who play every week and players who pop in and play once a month or less. There is exactly one way to do that: no advancement.

You can give people a pile of Fate Points or Edge or Karma at the start of each session to burn through to power abilities if you want. But if you let people save anything from session to session you will have the infrequent players fall farther and farther behind. Setting advancement to zero is an inevitable consequence of your design goals.

-Frank

Ahh I see what you mean now.  So basically I'm doomed to failure? :(  What if advancement is really slow and not expressly tied to rates of attendance but more goal based and inclusive?  Surely no-one would really notice any disparity (not that they would care we're all friends after all).  I really want to de-couple reward from attendance.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388664If you intend to make the game transient-player friendly, you aren't going to be awarding any XP or Karma ever, so who cares?

-Frank

Ah no, you can't eliminte Karma from MSH - it not just for advancement it's also works like Fate points, except that you really want to use it freely. You can think of MSH as essentially a resource (Karma) based game.

Quote from: flyingmice;388675Also, I should point out that advancement in my own games* is by game year - whether or not the character is being played. Thus an occasional  player would not be in the least disadvantaged.

-clash

* Excluding Notice for rank advancement only - not skill/power advancement - in the In Harm's Way series of games.

Interesting so in my case advancement would occur but a the end of say a campaign arc where a major threat has been removed.  Awards are given based on the achieved goal and the infrequent player who has attended maybe a third of the sessions get's the same as everyone else?  Also any changes are logical ones that fit the arc just finished?

Quote from: EBM;388677Ahh I see what you mean now.  So basically I'm doomed to failure? :(  What if advancement is really slow and not expressly tied to rates of attendance but more goal based and inclusive?  Surely no-one would really notice any disparity (not that they would care we're all friends after all).  I really want to de-couple reward from attendance.

If you make advancement slow enough that they don't notice it, then the players will not notice it and it will be just like you didn't have it. If you make advancement fast enough that they notice it, then the players who aren't getting it will notice the disparity of not having it.

You can't simultaneously make players who show up to games feel like their characters are better without making the players who didn't get that feel like their characters are worse.

There is nothing wrong with a superheroes game that has no advancement. Nothing wrong at all. There is also nothing wrong with a superheroes game that does have advancement. The first models teams like The Justice League, where the characters are already at their iconic points of ability; and the second models teams like The X Men, where the characters are supposed to be growing as people and as heroes to fit their eventual iconic state sometime in the future. You aren't going to be able to do both at the same time - and you need to nut up to that fact and pick some consistent design goals.

-Frank

Quote from: Soylent Green;388678Ah no, you can't eliminte Karma from MSH - it not just for advancement it's also works like Fate points, except that you really want to use it freely. You can think of MSH as essentially a resource (Karma) based game.

Exactly!  It's a shame there isn't Good Karma to help do good things and Bad Karma for bad.  But then again sometimes good and bad are subjective!

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

There's also Bold & Brave.  Here's a review.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17533

I haven't played it but it seems to hit all your bullets except maybe 5.  I'm very familiar with the core system and it does gritty and heroic equally well.

Pete

Quote from: EBM;388653Interesting...  how much Super's stuff is in the Basic book?  Isn't there a Supers book out for it already?  Can't remember the name.

There are a variety of 'powers' in the book... some guidelines for supers stuff, I could probably get by fine with just that... but I prefer street-level supers... ala The Avenger, The Shadow, The Spider and The Phantom.

The actual BRP supers game was Superworld... which was a boxed set and a later supplement... maybe some scenarios. It's all still available on Chaosium's site.
The City of Heroes stuff on BRP Central nearly amounts to a new supers supplement... though directed at a specific setting.
There's also the Agents of the Crown (http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1531-AGENTS-OF-THE-CROWN-Victorian-Superhero-Adventure-for-Basic-Roleplaying?p=24892)... which is a BRP setting with low-powered Victorian-era supers.

Quote from: EBM;388681Exactly!  It's a shame there isn't Good Karma to help do good things and Bad Karma for bad.  But then again sometimes good and bad are subjective!

That is easily house ruled though. Remove the penality for killling and give Karma out for results regardless of the methods used.

Quote from: EBM;388679Interesting so in my case advancement would occur but a the end of say a campaign arc where a major threat has been removed.  Awards are given based on the achieved goal and the infrequent player who has attended maybe a third of the sessions get's the same as everyone else?  Also any changes are logical ones that fit the arc just finished?

Assuming your frequent attenders are ok with someone who only pops in every now and then getting the same rewards, that would work fine. You could even have advancement happen on a per session or per scene basis, so long as the folks that aren't there have the same totals when they come back as the folks that are.

If you do that, and you go with MSH, you'd want to divorce xp and spending karma from each other. Giving X amount of karma per session that people can spend on rolls would keep the player who wasn't there from returning and suddenly having enough karma in his lap to go supernova, while the rest of the players have had to spend theirs because they were involved in the sessions.

Or you could figure out the average amount of karma people have burned vs. how much they've save or spent on advancement, but that could get pretty annoying as it'll change every session.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388680If you make advancement slow enough that they don't notice it, then the players will not notice it and it will be just like you didn't have it. If you make advancement fast enough that they notice it, then the players who aren't getting it will notice the disparity of not having it.

You can't simultaneously make players who show up to games feel like their characters are better without making the players who didn't get that feel like their characters are worse.

There is nothing wrong with a superheroes game that has no advancement. Nothing wrong at all. There is also nothing wrong with a superheroes game that does have advancement. The first models teams like The Justice League, where the characters are already at their iconic points of ability; and the second models teams like The X Men, where the characters are supposed to be growing as people and as heroes to fit their eventual iconic state sometime in the future. You aren't going to be able to do both at the same time - and you need to nut up to that fact and pick some consistent design goals.

-Frank

Your wrong IMHO!  It's a queston of balance and an understanding group.  I will have my cake and eat it.

Quote from: Soylent Green;388686That is easily house ruled though. Remove the penality for killling and give Karma out for results regardless of the methods used.

Yes that sounds possible.

Quote from: James McMurray;388687Assuming your frequent attenders are ok with someone who only pops in every now and then getting the same rewards, that would work fine. You could even have advancement happen on a per session or per scene basis, so long as the folks that aren't there have the same totals when they come back as the folks that are.

If you do that, and you go with MSH, you'd want to divorce xp and spending karma from each other. Giving X amount of karma per session that people can spend on rolls would keep the player who wasn't there from returning and suddenly having enough karma in his lap to go supernova, while the rest of the players have had to spend theirs because they were involved in the sessions.

Or you could figure out the average amount of karma people have burned vs. how much they've save or spent on advancement, but that could get pretty annoying as it'll change every session.

Hmm sounds like a lot of paperwork!

Quote from: EBM;388701Hmm sounds like a lot of paperwork!

That's why I'd recommend the first option. Just give them X karma per session. Any they don't spend is lost. That way the people who don't show up have the same expendable resources as the ones who are there and using theirs frequently. How much you give would depend on what power level you're looking for.

Quote from: EBM;388679Interesting so in my case advancement would occur but a the end of say a campaign arc where a major threat has been removed.  Awards are given based on the achieved goal and the infrequent player who has attended maybe a third of the sessions get's the same as everyone else?  Also any changes are logical ones that fit the arc just finished?

Awards are not given based on achieved goals. Characters who fail learn too. A character who is not there is assumed to be doing something else somewhere else, and thus gets the same as the rest. What the advancement is would be based on what the characters were doing - their job - that year.

A "year" is a flexible piece of time. It's however long it takes to play through the interesting parts. The dull parts are assumed to happen. In other words, if you are playing a homicide detective, you don't play the 20 open and shut cases where you know who did it and just have to build the case. You play out the whacko case, the screwball murder, the difficult puzzler, or the dangerous mob hit.

Note also that using this scheme you can skip years and move ahead in time - take two years worth of advance ment, guys! - or loop back and play out a year you skipped, and chargen works the same way. You chargen the character to the point you want to play him/her.

-clash

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

Though I am all about BASH UE (and I think ICONS is pretty great, too), I think Bold & Brave by Precis Intermedia is gonna get PRETTY close.  It has guidelines for the team stuff, for the gadgeteering, doesn't require maps and minis, has rules to largely randomize character generation, has crunch but not excessive crunch...I think it's gonna come pretty close...closer than anything else I've seen.

Quote from: EBM;388599As a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?  The player in my group is a great guy, he has run a lot of games for us in the past and he still want's to participate.  Many games make no allowance for busy people instead they penalise them for not turning up.  As it happens this guy's career has taken off and he now travels all over the world but he still want's to game when he can.  Obviously you can go down the route of "I will give you X xp for a picture of your PC" or "Y xp for a detailed background" but you can only do that so many times.  How good would it be if that player could say "sorry guy's I'm away for three week's, my character is going to try and infiltrate The Directorate (or whatever cool organisation you are using) or I'm going to upgrade the base defences, compile a super villain database etc..  That would be so cool.  Evil Hat touched on this with extended contests in FATE 2.0 but I have not really seen any game do it really well and I've been gaming since 1979!

Morality in MSH is easy to not enforce, and just give Karma as you see fit. My personal opinion is it should flow like water. I also have used maps for it rarely just using my judgment and the players for "areas" 1 area is close, 2 Medium and 3+ a good run (i.e dodging on a football field to the end run from a 1 yard from the opposing yard line as I see it.)

As to dealing with absent players one of the things that superheroes do well, is absent players. They don't have to be there the next issue, unless you don't finish the adventure. Then you have the odd knockout, erratic alien kidnapping, or some call for their assistance to go do something else. Though games don't think about that much, which I do, which is why yes H&S will talk about it if I can. I have the same issue. Often in campaigns play (fantasy, Shadowrun, etc.) we play a different game that day, one of the advantages of supers is that they're just crazy enough to have one hero vanish for a time. Using a system like MSH, or Fate might work if you simply award Fate points/Karma for things done outside play, that they choose to do. I'd get with that player and have them list six random reasons they might be called away--preferably tied to their profession, skills, or past. Yes its a house rule, but that way you can have them vanish and don't have to pick one or use them in order. Also you can work with them in advance to decide how much reward them being gone actually gets.

Them not being there usually costs them XP in games, and rightfully so, they weren't THERE to get it, but if you want to include it for game flow purpose you set up how much reward they get for each event. Talk to them about it, and actually have them make some rolls when they get back or have them deal with it "on page" at the beginning of the next comic before they finish up and come back and the rest of the group gets going.

Also never forget the clone, evil robot, or shapeshifter borrowing his role and pretending to be him or her. Can always have the PC's show up to rescue him next issue. Just award him points (whichever system you use) for the "I capture you, tough luck hero" type rule.

I still recommend MSH, I know it take a little house ruling but that's less work than writing up a full superhero Fate game. (As fun as that might be, and as much as I'm tempted to do one, at some point.)

I've not looked at Golden Heroes/UK Squadron in a while and I want to say it had a few of the features you look for--but I cannot be sure.

I'd gladly help more. You and I could hack out house rules for Icon's or T&J, maybe Savage Worlds or something if you wanted. But is a lot of extra work. (I'm not yet familiar enough with BASH.)

Quote from: pspahn;388684There's also Bold & Brave.  Here's a review.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17533

I haven't played it but it seems to hit all your bullets except maybe 5.  I'm very familiar with the core system and it does gritty and heroic equally well.

Pete

Well, the book goes into the different eras/types of play right up front...I DON'T think it has HQ stuff, though...that's the only bit I was unsure on.

But yeah, I'm with you, Bold & Brave hits all the points closer than anything else I know of.

Quote from: flyingmice;388710Awards are not given based on achieved goals. Characters who fail learn too. A character who is not there is assumed to be doing something else somewhere else, and thus gets the same as the rest. What the advancement is would be based on what the characters were doing - their job - that year.

A "year" is a flexible piece of time. It's however long it takes to play through the interesting parts. The dull parts are assumed to happen. In other words, if you are playing a homicide detective, you don't play the 20 open and shut cases where you know who did it and just have to build the case. You play out the whacko case, the screwball murder, the difficult puzzler, or the dangerous mob hit.

Note also that using this scheme you can skip years and move ahead in time - take two years worth of advance ment, guys! - or loop back and play out a year you skipped, and chargen works the same way. You chargen the character to the point you want to play him/her.

-clash

Sounds cool, I will check your stuff out.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;388722Well, the book goes into the different eras/types of play right up front...I DON'T think it has HQ stuff, though...that's the only bit I was unsure on.

But yeah, I'm with you, Bold & Brave hits all the points closer than anything else I know of.

It's not a game system I'm familiar with guy's but I will check it out.

Thanks for the link.

Quote from: Silverlion;388721Morality in MSH is easy to not enforce, and just give Karma as you see fit. My personal opinion is it should flow like water. I also have used maps for it rarely just using my judgment and the players for "areas" 1 area is close, 2 Medium and 3+ a good run (i.e dodging on a football field to the end run from a 1 yard from the opposing yard line as I see it.)

As to dealing with absent players one of the things that superheroes do well, is absent players. They don't have to be there the next issue, unless you don't finish the adventure. Then you have the odd knockout, erratic alien kidnapping, or some call for their assistance to go do something else. Though games don't think about that much, which I do, which is why yes H&S will talk about it if I can. I have the same issue. Often in campaigns play (fantasy, Shadowrun, etc.) we play a different game that day, one of the advantages of supers is that they're just crazy enough to have one hero vanish for a time. Using a system like MSH, or Fate might work if you simply award Fate points/Karma for things done outside play, that they choose to do. I'd get with that player and have them list six random reasons they might be called away--preferably tied to their profession, skills, or past. Yes its a house rule, but that way you can have them vanish and don't have to pick one or use them in order. Also you can work with them in advance to decide how much reward them being gone actually gets.

Them not being there usually costs them XP in games, and rightfully so, they weren't THERE to get it, but if you want to include it for game flow purpose you set up how much reward they get for each event. Talk to them about it, and actually have them make some rolls when they get back or have them deal with it "on page" at the beginning of the next comic before they finish up and come back and the rest of the group gets going.

Also never forget the clone, evil robot, or shapeshifter borrowing his role and pretending to be him or her. Can always have the PC's show up to rescue him next issue. Just award him points (whichever system you use) for the "I capture you, tough luck hero" type rule.

I still recommend MSH, I know it take a little house ruling but that's less work than writing up a full superhero Fate game. (As fun as that might be, and as much as I'm tempted to do one, at some point.)

I've not looked at Golden Heroes/UK Squadron in a while and I want to say it had a few of the features you look for--but I cannot be sure.

I'd gladly help more. You and I could hack out house rules for Icon's or T&J, maybe Savage Worlds or something if you wanted. But is a lot of extra work. (I'm not yet familiar enough with BASH.)

Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

Quote from: EBM;388746Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

There is nobody who knows more about supers roleplaying than Tim!

-clash

Quote from: EBM;388746Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

It am not sure Squadron UK, would feel "less" dated, it is updated but it is still the same mechanics.

In other news a Revised version of Villains & Vigilantes is on the way. (A minor one but that's for now--to be in print)

Quote from: Silverlion;388749It am not sure Squadron UK, would feel "less" dated, it is updated but it is still the same mechanics.

In other news a Revised version of Villains & Vigilantes is on the way. (A minor one but that's for now--to be in print)

I have no experience with V&V at all but a lot of people seem excited about it!

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;388719Though I am all about BASH UE (and I think ICONS is pretty great, too), I think Bold & Brave by Precis Intermedia is gonna get PRETTY close.  It has guidelines for the team stuff, for the gadgeteering, doesn't require maps and minis, has rules to largely randomize character generation, has crunch but not excessive crunch...I think it's gonna come pretty close...closer than anything else I've seen.

I've just read your review Tommy and left you some question on the review thread.

Quote from: Simlasa;388685There are a variety of 'powers' in the book... some guidelines for supers stuff, I could probably get by fine with just that... but I prefer street-level supers... ala The Avenger, The Shadow, The Spider and The Phantom.

The actual BRP supers game was Superworld... which was a boxed set and a later supplement... maybe some scenarios. It's all still available on Chaosium's site.
The City of Heroes stuff on BRP Central nearly amounts to a new supers supplement... though directed at a specific setting.
There's also the Agents of the Crown (http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1531-AGENTS-OF-THE-CROWN-Victorian-Superhero-Adventure-for-Basic-Roleplaying?p=24892)... which is a BRP setting with low-powered Victorian-era supers.

Thanks I will check it out.

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
.

Actually BASH! UE does #1 (IMO) that's what it's meant to do.

For #2 BASH! UE has options for how to play without any maps or minis at all, something more zone-like, as you said.

For #3 it emphasizes "Subplots" which are things going on in the characters' lives besides kicking ass in a costume, whether it be love life, a job, family, etc.  There is also a Gadgeteering advantage that lets heroes build new powers, and rules for inventing things.

For #4 you'll have to wait for official rules (Awesome Powers book) but there is a fan-created option available now here  (http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=237)(see post #4).  

#5 BASH! UE has a whole section covering this.

#6 BASH! UE is a build system, not class & level based.  You can have a team of "mixed scale" and the game works fine.  The weaker characters get more Hero Points to compensate.

#7 if you aren't using Maps & Minis, then by default BASH! UE fits here, as all you need are a few d6 character sheets, and scratch paper.  While I do use little gems to represent Hero Points in game, you can just as easily make little hash-marks with a pencil.  

#8 Death... now that is doable, just not the "default" setting.  In an "Iron Age" style game, it gives rules for using Lethal vs. Stun damage, character death, etc.

No one has mentioned Brave New World yet.  Don't know how good it is, but you could check that one out as well.

Quote from: BASHMAN;388913Actually BASH! UE does #1 (IMO) that's what it's meant to do.

For #2 BASH! UE has options for how to play without any maps or minis at all, something more zone-like, as you said.

For #3 it emphasizes "Subplots" which are things going on in the characters' lives besides kicking ass in a costume, whether it be love life, a job, family, etc.  There is also a Gadgeteering advantage that lets heroes build new powers, and rules for inventing things.

For #4 you'll have to wait for official rules (Awesome Powers book) but there is a fan-created option available now here  (http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=237)(see post #4).  

#5 BASH! UE has a whole section covering this.

#6 BASH! UE is a build system, not class & level based.  You can have a team of "mixed scale" and the game works fine.  The weaker characters get more Hero Points to compensate.

#7 if you aren't using Maps & Minis, then by default BASH! UE fits here, as all you need are a few d6 character sheets, and scratch paper.  While I do use little gems to represent Hero Points in game, you can just as easily make little hash-marks with a pencil.  

#8 Death... now that is doable, just not the "default" setting.  In an "Iron Age" style game, it gives rules for using Lethal vs. Stun damage, character death, etc.

From the horses mouth!  

Sold!  

I will be putting an order in with Leisure Games on Friday.  

Thanks for your help BASHMAN.

Quote from: EBM;388744Sounds cool, I will check your stuff out.

Well, I have no Supers game - and as Silverlion has written *my* perfect supers game - I'm not going to write one. OTOH, my son Klaxon is in the middle of writing a supers game using a variation of my system called "Look, Up in the Sky!" I have no hand in writing it, and have no idea when it will be out. Klax has been co-writing with me since he was 16 - he's 23 now - but this is his first project as main writer and designer. It's a heavily team-oriented, troupe style supers game based on an organization you build which funds HQ, labs, practice rooms, and the like. Actually, it looks like an exact fit for your requirements now that I think of it...

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;388949Well, I have no Supers game - and as Silverlion has written *my* perfect supers game - I'm not going to write one. OTOH, my son Klaxon is in the middle of writing a supers game using a variation of my system called "Look, Up in the Sky!" I have no hand in writing it, and have no idea when it will be out. Klax has been co-writing with me since he was 16 - he's 23 now - but this is his first project as main writer and designer. It's a heavily team-oriented, troupe style supers game based on an organization you build which funds HQ, labs, practice rooms, and the like. Actually, it looks like an exact fit for your requirements now that I think of it...

-clash

Sounds great! :) I'd definitely buy something like that.

Get him to hurry up and write it! ;)

Quote from: EBM;389112Sounds great! :) I'd definitely buy something like that.

Get him to hurry up and write it! ;)

OK! He has been told! Having raised him from a pup, I'm not too sure how much that's going to work, though. It's not like he actually pays any attention to what I say... :D

-clash