Quote from: Name LipsIt involved defending a town against an army of zombies. Traditional fantasy fare, right? There was a nearby "safe area." Maybe a cave or something. They sent the women and children there, and the PCs rallied the men of the town to defend against the zombie hordes.

I'm sure some of you can tell what's going to happen next...

Zombies shuffling forward in the night, some falling to arrows, but when they get close enough to see clearly... they're the women and children of the town, all zombified, and on a mission of slaughter. Some of the men just gave  up and killed themselves then and there - they had nothing left to fight for, their families and children were gone, and the future of the town was doomed anyway. And the PCs had to deal with knowing it was their decision to leave the women and children behind in the "safe" place that resulted in their death and subsequent un-death. And they had to kill zombie kids of all ages.

If I were playing the cleric from the campaign we just wrapped up (13th lvl cleric of Lathander, FR, NG), I would turn the zombies, destroying them. I would be secure in the knowledge that the zombies were only the empty vessels and that the women and children's spirits were safe with the gods. I would know that it was not our choice that killed them, it was the evil ones who sought them out. I would pray to Lathander on their behalf, then seek redemption/repentance or retribution against the true killers in their names.

Greetings!

Hmmm...interesting. I have a reputation for running a wierd blend of "High Magic"/Heroic/Cthulhuesque/Gritty style of campaigns. Of course, there are light-hearted, fun episodes--not every session is full of blood, despair and ruthless brutality, after all.

But I use heavy description and topics all the time in my campaigns. For example;

"As your fireball explodes and shatters the doorway, you can hear the moans and screams of the dying. Entering the burning archway reveals a charnel-house of blood, and roasted bodies. In the far side of the large chamber, there are a group of ferocious, heavily-armed beastmen gathered, ready for a fight. Seeing the group stride into the chamber, the group of black-furred goat-headed beastmen retreat through a pair of doors on the eastern wall. Looking about the chattered room, several beastmen lay sprawled about, bleeding severely and moaning as their flesh sizzles from the terrifying flames. Down a inset stairway, there are several iron cages with beaten and tortured human slaves, cringing in terror. There, in the closest cage is the wizard's apprentice Maraina that you have been searching for. Stepping closer, it is plain to see that she is no longer the bright, happy girl you remember from last summer. She has no doubt been brutally raped, and her naked form shows for all to see the savage wounds of being scourged, and numerous bite marks and clawings all over her body. Sobbing and drooling numbly, she is a shocking wreck of a girl that she once was."

I use extensive descriptions for the players, and describe their attacks, as well as wounds occasionally delivered against them, as appropriate. The campaign world is full of slavery, racism, warfare, sacrifices to demons, madness, and ruthless savagery. Much like real life. The players actions have real consequences and the world they play in is a ruthless, violent world desperate for heroes and courage. Fighting against evil monsters and villains is a rough, bloody, terrifying business. I think if I were to scrub it and sanitize it, then the players would think it was some kind of cartoon-world, or at least their believability and verisimillitude in the world would be lessened.

As for more philosophical topics, yeah, I use relationships, personal interactions, conflicting loyalties, oaths, drama, hatreds, grudges and ambitions and all that for good effect. It increases drama and tension, and makes the players *care* more about their characters and networks, and evokes deeper, more visceral responses about problems and challenges that face their characters and the people and creatures that they care about.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Interesting subject.

I like Heavy Shit in my games. The last fantasy game I ran was in a fantasy version of Constantinople--in that it was the largest, most cosmopolitan city in the setting--in which the various religious factions--templates of real world religions--were blaming each other for the mysterious murders that were occuring with frightening frequency. While the political intrigue and societal stresses had some effect on the PCs, for the most part they were too involved in finding the bad guys and fucking them the fuck up.

The Albenistan Series of adventures from SEP started out in Afghanistan. However, I knew I could never do the real Afghanistan situation justice, so I moved it to a completely ficticious template of Afghanistan. Cop out? Maybe, but I have a vast amount of respect for what the ISAF are trying to do in Afghanistan, and I didn't want to belittle it by delivering an entertainment product that did not deal with the real causes and repercussions of the situation. I tried to bring a little bit more of the sense of the situation in the final adventure "the Khororjan Gambit," but I still wouldn't feel comfortable placing it in Afghanistan. I really wouldn't feel comfortable publishing an adventure set in Afghanistan (or any other real world conflict/disaster zone) without actually going there and being involved. And that's not going to happen.

Yes, I like Heavy Shit in my games, but sometimes it's just too heavy.

I like the sound of SHARK's heavy shit.  It's not real life, it is the cold, brutal realities of a fantasy world.  Sounds much more fun to me than realistic heavy shit.  

Quote from: FraserRonaldI still wouldn't feel comfortable placing it in Afghanistan. I really wouldn't feel comfortable publishing an adventure set in Afghanistan (or any other real world conflict/disaster zone) without actually going there and being involved. And that's not going to happen.

Yeah, again it all comes down to what is acceptable to your gaming group. I suppose the considerations are much more complex when it comes to publishing a game/adventure.

QuoteYes, I like Heavy Shit in my games, but sometimes it's just too heavy.

That's why Feng Shui was created - to remind people to have kickass light hearted fun

Quote from: CyberzombieI like the sound of SHARK's heavy shit.  It's not real life, it is the cold, brutal realities of a fantasy world.  Sounds much more fun to me than realistic heavy shit.  

Greetings!

Hey Cyberzombie! Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Indeed, that's how I run all of my campaigns!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I run heavy, brutal shit in my Modern Game.

The PC's had a choice: Enter the lair of a bunch of Feral Children and try to fight thier way to the train, or use nerve gas.

If they used nerve gas, they wouldn't take any casualties, but they'd used nerve gas on children.

If they went in, they knew half thier number was dead.

That's just one of the most memorable.

But, my campaign tend to be heavy duty.

We don't have the distinction. My players trust me and I trust them. The sole time it came up was right after 9/11/01, where we agreed to let it as a topic (in our modern day gamed) lie for an unspecified amount of time, which ended up being about three months.

Quote from: T-WillardI run heavy, brutal shit in my Modern Game.

The PC's had a choice: Enter the lair of a bunch of Feral Children and try to fight thier way to the train, or use nerve gas.

If they used nerve gas, they wouldn't take any casualties, but they'd used nerve gas on children.

If they went in, they knew half thier number was dead.

That's just one of the most memorable.

But, my campaign tend to be heavy duty.

Definitely Gas 'em. PCs got a mission to complete and more children can always be made.

I'm willing to do brutal and heavy.  I've gotten less graphic with time, but I still like the themes in place.  I want a game that's worth thinking about.  If it really was all about killing critters and nicking their shit, I'd just play video games.
 
That isn't to say, though, that I run a constant stream of Springer rejects.  Just that I am willing to use dark or philosophical themes (racism, rape, diabolism, etc.) when it seems reasonable.

I'm sensing a "Son of..." thread coming up.

I'm not adverse to using Heavy Shit when it's appropriate to a certain session or campaign.  It's just another tool in my GM toolbox; I see no reason to limit myself by not at least allowing the possibility for Heavy Shit.

Quote from: David RThat's why Feng Shui was created - to remind people to have kickass light hearted fun

Now it's funny you should mention that exact game, because this whole question about Heavy Shit and games is one I'm wrestling with at the moment

I'm currently proofing/reviewing/playtesting a series of modules for a game that contains not only the some of the heaviest shit I've seen in a game, but some of the heaviest shit I have read full stop.  And I'm a Stephen King fan

No spoilers, but in HAAC:0, there is a particular detail that is intended to give the players and their characters just a little bit more motivation to hurry up.  When I read it, I had to make a decision whether to leave it in or take it out.  I decided to use it, but when the time came I left it out without realising it.  I genuniely think my subconcious decided that he didn't want it in his game and he had the casting vote

My players said they loved that session, and I believe them, but I know that they were much more comfortable with the next session which featured (among other things), the PC's being rescued by Tom Baker driving a ice cream van through a set of French windows.  You guessed it - we were playing Feng Shui

I'm a escapism player and DM. I want to play the great hero and I prefer if my players play the true heroes.

Because of that I love heavy shit in my games.

Without it, you can't play a hero, you could simply fake it.

Lets say you have the evil goblins (you know they are evil because they are goblins and raid towns) and root out their (child less, because goblin children are heavy stuff) burrows, are you a hero?

No, you're a guy in a black and white world defending himself against his enemy.

For one you need to be able to fight the truly evil, the rapists and mass murderers of the setting. But even then it's still black and white and you're just a guy fighting evil, not necessarry someone good.

Only when you have to make the truly hard decissions, then you can play a hero. If you take the choice that's disadvantegous to you, because you know it's the good thing to do. The hero needs to face heavy shit, so he can define his goodness.


Now, all I need is less pragmatic players :bawling:

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonNo spoilers, but in HAAC:0,

What is HACC:0 - I'm a little bit out of the loop here

QuoteMy players said they loved that session, and I believe them, but I know that they were much more comfortable with the next session which featured (among other things), the PC's being rescued by Tom Baker driving a ice cream van through a set of French windows.  You guessed it - we were playing Feng Shui

I so know what you mean. Feng Shui, the game that just keeps on giving.

Regards,
David R