With that zombie scenario, I could me having one of two reactions.  In one, I rip up my character sheet for being so fucking STUPID as to fall for that.  In the other, I see me ripping up my character sheet and throwing it at the DM, as I pick up my books to leave.

Could it have been an enjoyable gaming session?  Anything is possible.  But I kinda doubt it.  It was either player stupidity or a DM I would want to beat about the head and shoulders.

Quote from: Name LipsZombies shuffling forward in the night, some falling to arrows, but when they get close enough to see clearly... they're the women and children of the town, all zombified, and on a mission of slaughter. Some of the men just gave  up and killed themselves then and there - they had nothing left to fight for, their families and children were gone, and the future of the town was doomed anyway. And the PCs had to deal with knowing it was their decision to leave the women and children behind in the "safe" place that resulted in their death and subsequent un-death. And they had to kill zombie kids of all ages.

I encountered something like this some time ago. It was a kind of "What would happen if the Pcs did not manage to save the day" scenario. I had the Pcs be the guardians of a small settlement in a setting inspired by the End game.

The players grew used to the settlement folk had some adventures but to cut a long story short one of their adversaries was this "mad doctor" type carrying experiments trying to make people pure but instead turning them into "THE WALKING DEAD". They kinda of suspected that he had a "purifying bomb" hidden some place but decided to leave one of their group behind to look for the bomb while the rest of them went after the doc and his mook followers[..if we don't settle up with him now, we can't take the chance he will back to collect a debt later....]( to be fair this pc was the tech specialist, so in theory he should have been able to handle defusing the bomb)

Well the problem was that the bomb was strapped on to a member of the settlement who was seriously delusional(and who thought that the doctor was a capital fellow and so was his plans) but who the party really liked and the player didn't manage to defuse/kill bomb or man. Shit happened. The other players were not at the table and thought everything was cool...they come back and had to deal with this...and a party member who had survived the bomb blast...which was not really a good thing.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: el-remmenI only meant that "violence is violence" in the sense that someone who has experienced terrible violence might be distubed by it on any level - sometimes even when they don't expect to be.

I understand that, but the impression I was getting from your earlier posts was that you were implying that violence is violence, regardless of context. I think that only the most adversely affected victims of violence would ever be truly disturbed by cartoon violence, or the kind of violence found in the average D&D game.

Quote from: el-remmenAnd yeah, I am totally a "his guts fall out onto the ground" or "there is a spray of blood and brains as your mace smashes into his skull" kind of descriptive DM.

And that's fine. I have used such descriptions myself. But I generally only pull out the purple prose when I feel there is something I want to emphasize.

This is sort of puzzling for me.  Sometimes I like heavy stuff in my games.  Sometimes I don't.

It's like asking "Do you like to eat hamburger or apple pie?"  I can't like both?

A great "heavy things" moment was during the first Polaris playtest, when Vincent and I got into a nasty ping-pong of badness with my character.  The best part of it was the start, when my guy is hanging by his fingernails on the cliff's edge, staring up has his companion knight (Emily's character), and his companion is just watching him slide down, neutral expression, while I scream "please!  please help me!"

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben LehmanThis is sort of puzzling for me.  Sometimes I like heavy stuff in my games.  Sometimes I don't.

Right.  But this question stemmed from a debate about having any real heavy shit at all (or at least it seemed to me).

It could just be a matter of perception. I'm not saying I wouldn't want any heavy shit at all in a game - might as well play TOON, then - but that I don't want such stuff to be the basis of a campaign.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt could just be a matter of perception. I'm not saying I wouldn't want any heavy shit at all in a game - might as well play TOON, then - but that I don't want such stuff to be the basis of a campaign.

I can understand where this comes from. I like heavy shit but sometimes it's nice to have a game which is a little more light-hearted or with easy decisions to make so I can get with the smashing.

I think I like heavy shit for two reasons. The first is that it lets me get further into the skin of the character because I'm suffering at making this decision as well as the character. On the other hand, I get to make decisions that I would never make in real life. I mean, I recently had a character break someone else's neck because she expected that he probably had allies who would try to rescue him, and she wanted him to be inconvenienced when he woke up. (Mage game, she needed him alive so broke his neck while making it so that he wouldn't die.) After the game, I was hit with "I did what?!" which was pretty cool.

Previous Supers games:

Pounce, a were-panther like hero  had just begun dating a slightly older woman he was a roguish devil may care high school age rebel without a care. The older woman was the elder sister of a fellow class mate he met when he was ditching class to smoke. She was outside the classroom waiting to pick up her sister, the colleg age young woman (only a couple of years his elder) and he hit it off. Some game time passes they date a few times. While pursuing a villain one day he see's her car in front of a clinic. A health clinic. He skids on the breaks and stops because well, she's in the car crying.

Turns out she's couple months  pregnant from a previous boyfriend, and no way she can keep the baby and afford going to school. He stops his pursuit of the relatively minor villain to have a long heart to heart with her and offers to help her out, even though it is NOT his child (thouroughly unexpected behaviour from the "rebel" character in fact.)

So heavy? Yeah just a tad.

Quote from: CyberzombieWith that zombie scenario, I could me having one of two reactions.  In one, I rip up my character sheet for being so fucking STUPID as to fall for that.  In the other, I see me ripping up my character sheet and throwing it at the DM, as I pick up my books to leave.

Could it have been an enjoyable gaming session?  Anything is possible.  But I kinda doubt it.  It was either player stupidity or a DM I would want to beat about the head and shoulders.

I had the same reaction you did.

I've know some people (online, not in person) who would claim that something like that was an enjoyable session. You can find anything online.

Quote

Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt could just be a matter of perception. I'm not saying I wouldn't want any heavy shit at all in a game - might as well play TOON, then - but that I don't want such stuff to be the basis of a campaign.

Sometimes the setting itself is pretty fertile ground for heavy shit. Midnight for example for fantasy and Unknown Armies for modern day horror. The campaign could be grounded in heavy shit but there is always humour(used sparingly) etc to lighten things up. Could be one of the reasons these settings don't hold much appeal to gamers. But I dig them -well more Unknown Armies than Midnight.

Regards,
David R

I'd be interested to know how preference for Heavy Shit in games correlates to preference in books and films.

without "heavy shit" what you really have is an exercise in hack and slash.  i think the real question here is how we, as gamers, deal with the issue of keeping it within the our comfort zones.  i mean, really, anything can be considered "heavy".  take this, for example.  you are the party's heal-bot and you have to decide who you are going to heal in a combat where the character you dont will likley die.  do you choose in character based on who your PC likes better, or do you choose based on which character will be better suited to help win the fight?  thats a moral dilemma there, and a common one too if you are playing in character at all.

Another film/Television example.  lets say you are watching a show, and its one of those shows with established characters you just know are never going to die no matter how many stupid situations they get into.  How much interest is that show going to hold for you?  sure, it may be entertaining for a while, but personally i lose interests in things like that once i realize i already know whats going to happen.  on the other hand, what about a show with well writitten, likeable characters, where the writers kill one or two off now and then because they got into a situation they couldnt handle?  that kind of show keeps you on the edge of your seat because you really dont know what is going to happen until its done.

the point is, its all about the groups collective comfort zone and how heavy the shit gets.  Heavy shit is what gives a game its realisim, the sense that you are not, in fact, an unstopable force for good (or evil, or whatever) that can't do anything wrong because all you get are easy decisions.  heavy shit is  how you keep the game interesting and engaging while reminding the players that their characters exist in a "real world" where their decisions matter and have consequences.

Quote from: droogI'd be interested to know how preference for Heavy Shit in games correlates to preference in books and films.

I wasn't stating my preference for Heavy Shit over everything else in the games I run. Just that the Heavy shit in my games were based on movie and book narratives which is sometimes at odds with reality. That is if this question was addressed to me. Otherwise I apologise in advance

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI wasn't stating my preference for Heavy Shit over everything else in the games I run. Just that the Heavy shit in my games were based on movie and book narratives which is sometimes at odds with reality. That is if this question was addressed to me. Otherwise I apologise in advance

Regards,
David R

I get that. It wasn't addressed to you in particular; I was just wondering. I rather like Heavy Shit in my entertainment; including roleplaying.

Quote from: droogI was just wondering. I rather like Heavy Shit in my entertainment; including roleplaying.

Yeah I figure that those of us who go for Heavy Shit in our games like the verisimlitude it(Heavy shit) brings to our games. Well not all of us but some of us.

Regards,
David R