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Hello,

I am interested in picking up a mecha game, and have read good things about the games put out by Dream Pod 9.  I'm probably not interested in getting the latest version of Silhouette (too expensive to pick up on a whim).  So I am looking at the following games:

Heavy Gear 2nd ed.

Jovian Chronicles 1st ed.

From what I understand, HG primarily takes place on ground with smaller mechs (more like power suits).  JC is more of a space setting with giant robots.

Assuming that's correct, my first question is: is there anything aspect of either game that would lead your to recommend one game over another?  Can JC be played "on the ground?"  Are there rules for taking HG into space?

I guess what I am trying to find is a replacement for Battletech/Mechwarrior.  I had a lot of fun with those back in the day, but in hindsight I don't care for the rules in either, and really don't like how the rules don't compliment each other well.  I like that the Silhouette system is more consistent with itself across rules for humans and mechs.

Thanks in advance!

Drop the idea. Play Mechwarrior Second Edition instead!

EDIT: I´ve heard good things about Heavy Gear as a tactical game. But I heard also, it has issues with optimal Gears = balancing of the Gear designs.

The rule sets are functionally identical.  I suspect you might get more value out of Jovian Chronicals if you intend to do 'space battles', as I don't recall there being any space combat rules in HG.

However, if you want OPINION I prefer Heavy Gear's setting/mechs.   I will vaguely warn you away from the new 'Core' book, however. While you get essentially the same rules, they are a mess, and the added 'complexity' rule for skills doesn't add as much to the game as it subtracts from character creation.

How about GURPS:MECHA ?

 D20 MECHA??

Didn't you post this same threadstart on the Big Purple??


- Ed C.

I seem to remember Kyle saying that Heavy Gear's organization of the setting was better than JC--basically, he said that for HG you can get by on just the core overview, while JC has a very airy overview which forces you to use all the detailed supplement books.

Heavy Gear was shitloads of fun to play, and it was easy to integrate as much of the setting as you pleased without being overwhelmed or feeling like you had to buy a ton of supplements. I really liked it. Never played Jovian Chronicles though.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI seem to remember Kyle saying that Heavy Gear's organization of the setting was better than JC--basically, he said that for HG you can get by on just the core overview, while JC has a very airy overview which forces you to use all the detailed supplement books.

That matches my impression pretty well too, actually. Might be why I never got into Jovian Chronicles... I don't buy too many supplements normally unless I already like the game.

The new mech figures for HG look really good. Not so blocky.

Depends on the focus you want.  If space battles aren't part of the campaign, Heavy Gear all the way.  It really is a well-done setting.

I picked up JC on a whim, many years ago, and fell in love with it.  The art says Manga/Anime action (it is, iirc, a Mekton Z spin-off product that got its own line), but the setting is actually rather "hard" sci-fi as opposed to science-flavoured fiction (e.g. RoboTech, Star Trek, and other stuff with poor grounding in real world physics, etc...).

Its scale is the solar system, there's no FTL, travel takes time, and space is vast and empty.  You can completely replace the "mecha" with fighter ships and it wouldn't really change the game all that much - aside from flavour.  Heavy gear is much more about "the Gears" than JC.

I have JC 1e and 2e.  I haven't played 2e, and neither have I read it thoroughly (don't really know why I even have it, I suppose).  I couldn't tell you what's better, I just know that 2e (which uses SilCORE) is not as well organized, rules-wise.  (DP9 just lost the plot on their whole games business... such a shame.)

I picked up Heavy Gear 2e at a used book store in '02.  It reads alright, but I've never actually played it so I won't comment.

Quote from: KoltarHow about GURPS:MECHA ?

 D20 MECHA??

Didn't you post this same threadstart on the Big Purple??


- Ed C.

Or better yet, how about Robot Heroes? Or Rifts? Or GURPS Rifts?

Silhouette is a lean, flexible rules set...both HG and JC do mecha very well, I daresay better than GURPS Mecha ever could. My impression of GURPS Mecha was it is well meaning but really doesn't "get it" in terms of implementing mecha.

Quote from: SpikeHowever, if you want OPINION I prefer Heavy Gear's setting/mechs.   I will vaguely warn you away from the new 'Core' book, however. While you get essentially the same rules, they are a mess, and the added 'complexity' rule for skills doesn't add as much to the game as it subtracts from character creation.

I admit that SilCore is not as well organized and Complexity was a bit fumbled (my own fix for Complexity is very simple and doesn't affect character creation at all - characters don't buy Complexity for skills) the rules really aren't that much different. I like using SilCore (especially the PDF version) because I don't have to constantly flip between my tattered copy of JC 1e and the JC Companion when building vehicles.

Quote from: SpikeThat matches my impression pretty well too, actually. Might be why I never got into Jovian Chronicles... I don't buy too many supplements normally unless I already like the game.

Actually, HG 1e had very scant setting info - @17 pages IIRC - and required Life on Terra Nova and the Badlands supplement for any amount of detail. 2e I believe expanded the setting material at the expense of cutting some sections that people didn't care for, but even then LoTN was really needed to flesh out the setting.

From how I understand it, if you prefer VOTOMS then Heavy Gear is your game, but if you want something more like Gundam, then JC is the way to go.

RPGPundit

Quote from: WilActually, HG 1e had very scant setting info - @17 pages IIRC - and required Life on Terra Nova and the Badlands supplement for any amount of detail. 2e I believe expanded the setting material at the expense of cutting some sections that people didn't care for, but even then LoTN was really needed to flesh out the setting.

Yeap. I played HG 1e right when it first came out, and own a copy of 2nd, and there was barely any  info about the world in 1e, and only a little more in 2e, and that mostly focused on Paxton Arms. Life on Terra Nova is really the only supplement you "need" though. Anything else is purely optional. Lest that be taken as a criticism, Life on Terra Nova is one of the best setting supplements I've ever read. I think it got even better with the 2e version.

Quote from: SpikeI will vaguely warn you away from the new 'Core' book, however. While you get essentially the same rules, they are a mess, and the added 'complexity' rule for skills doesn't add as much to the game as it subtracts from character creation.

I just removed complexity when I ran a game using Silcore.

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.  Very helpful!

Does the Heavy Gear 2nd rulebook have the vehicle design rules in it?  I wonder because from what I've read the vehicle design system was not included in the Jovian Chronicles book, but instead was in put into the companion book.

Also, how do people feel about Mekton Z?

Quote from: RPGPunditFrom how I understand it, if you prefer VOTOMS then Heavy Gear is your game, but if you want something more like Gundam, then JC is the way to go.

RPGPundit

There is an Armored Trooper VOTOMS RPG. Its now long out of print. But it a fun game. I havent gotten a chance to play anything serious with it. But I would like to.

Quote from: SettembriniDrop the idea. Play Mechwarrior Second Edition instead!

Quote from: KoltarHow about GURPS:MECHA ?

 D20 MECHA??

Or, better yet, why not try Exalted?  It has mecha.

Guys, pay attention to his question.

!i!

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYeap. I played HG 1e right when it first came out, and own a copy of 2nd, and there was barely any  info about the world in 1e, and only a little more in 2e, and that mostly focused on Paxton Arms. Life on Terra Nova is really the only supplement you "need" though. Anything else is purely optional. Lest that be taken as a criticism, Life on Terra Nova is one of the best setting supplements I've ever read. I think it got even better with the 2e version.

LoTN is absolutely fantastic. It has recipes for Terra Novan food with native ingredients along with substitutes that a person on Earth can use. One of my biggest complaints with JC was that they did not do a "Life in the Solar System" book in the same vein and instead went for publishing faction books.

Quote from: newtmonkeyThanks for all the replies, everyone.  Very helpful!

Does the Heavy Gear 2nd rulebook have the vehicle design rules in it?  I wonder because from what I've read the vehicle design system was not included in the Jovian Chronicles book, but instead was in put into the companion book.

Also, how do people feel about Mekton Z?

I don't have HG 2e, but IIRC the vehicle design rules were removed to make space for the extra setting material. The VCS is available for free on the DP9 website.

However, there is an important thing to consider. The VCS presented in the Jovian Chronicles Companion as well as SilCore is a more general build system. The HG 1e VCS allows for you to build pretty much any conventional vehicle (but lacked things like space movement, which were added in a supplement) and modify off-the-shelf weapons - but had no rules for creating weapons wholecloth. Since in HG tactical and rpg combat used the same rules, an attempt at balance was made and values were tweaked where needed. Many HG players never did more than use the modification rules to modify existing designs.

The JCC VCS included the weapon design system and a bit more flexibility in vehicle design, including things like AI, thought control, FTL, Transformables, etc. Those things are not part of JC's setting, but it was decided to include a full vehicle construction system for those who wanted those elements. The calculations are also a little different - for example, the weapon creation rules are derived from guidelines used to create HG 1e's weapons, but because some values in HG 1e were tweaked and the calculations in the final design system might vary somewhat this means that a HG 1e weapon system recreated using the JC VCS might come out with a slightly different cost.

Quote from: WilI don't have HG 2e, but IIRC the vehicle design rules were removed to make space for the extra setting material. The VCS is available for free on the DP9 website.

However, there is an important thing to consider. The VCS presented in the Jovian Chronicles Companion as well as SilCore is a more general build system. The HG 1e VCS allows for you to build pretty much any conventional vehicle (but lacked things like space movement, which were added in a supplement) and modify off-the-shelf weapons - but had no rules for creating weapons wholecloth. Since in HG tactical and rpg combat used the same rules, an attempt at balance was made and values were tweaked where needed. Many HG players never did more than use the modification rules to modify existing designs.

The JCC VCS included the weapon design system and a bit more flexibility in vehicle design, including things like AI, thought control, FTL, Transformables, etc. Those things are not part of JC's setting, but it was decided to include a full vehicle construction system for those who wanted those elements. The calculations are also a little different - for example, the weapon creation rules are derived from guidelines used to create HG 1e's weapons, but because some values in HG 1e were tweaked and the calculations in the final design system might vary somewhat this means that a HG 1e weapon system recreated using the JC VCS might come out with a slightly different cost.

Oh wow, I'm glad you mentioned this!  This is definitely something to think about.  I'm very much interested in playing around with vehicle/mech design and would like as many options available as possible.  Thanks!

Quote from: newtmonkeyOh wow, I'm glad you mentioned this!  This is definitely something to think about.  I'm very much interested in playing around with vehicle/mech design and would like as many options available as possible.  Thanks!

The forum ate my response :mad:

To answer your MZ question, it's a very good system (especially with Mekton Zeta Plus, the advanced build rules). The full Sil VCS and MZ+ are both very flexible, but they do it in different ways. Sil is more concerned with the final result and less concerned with the path that the fictional engineers in the universe took to get there. In both games you could design a tank the size of a Humvee with unlimited range, 600kph ground speed and a 300mm cannon - but in SilCore there is less hammering and cursing involved (well, there's no cursing with MZ+). MZ+ designs, particularly the ones I like to build, can get complicated very quickly. Sil is also more dependent on a single guiding hand in sanity checking designs...it's not really for players to custom design their own mecha. In MZ+ the GM still has to make sure that there aren't bad rules abuses or elements that violate the tech or theme of the campaign, but it's a pretty long-standing tradition for players to design or custmize their own mecha. One way to look at is that for settings like Macross (or "real robots" or settings where the vehicles are pretty much set in stone) I would use SilCore, but for "super robots" or where I want a bit more crunch or I want to allow the players to modify and build their own mecha I would use MZ+. Different tools for different goals.

Thanks again for the reply, this is very helpful. :)

How is MZ as a tactical game?  Are there rules for this in either of the books?

Quote from: newtmonkeyThanks again for the reply, this is very helpful. :)

How is MZ as a tactical game?  Are there rules for this in either of the books?

Silhouette definitely plays faster once the maps and figures come out, and MZ makes the assumption you will be using a hex map. It is primarily a roleplaying game with some wargamey elements tacked on so it doesn't play as werll tactically as a dedicated wargame. There just isn't a wargame level of precision in the rules. Also the MZ GM's screen also has a dramatic system called Mekton the Movie that greatly simplifies mecha stats and combat, and mecha can be converted from the full build system to the compressed stats. I've never really used it though.