Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2022, 08:09:14 AM

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 03:34:49 AMWhile interesting, you could get totally screwed by the luck of the draw.

Yeah, if you're using the suits you're going to need to limit them to four things; and since any could come up on any draw, it should be a factor that could apply to any check. I'd be inclined to say "hearts = an advantage, spades = a cost, diamonds+clubs = normal."

The potential to get screwed by bad luck is part of the point of having a randomizer in the first place, I'd argue.

The suit/trumping issue actually reminds me of a riff I did on the Castle Falkenstein rules, which use normal playing cards. Basically, the suits were classified by type of action as follows:  Physical/Derring-Do (Spades), Mental/Intellectual (Diamonds), Emotional/Personal (Hearts), and Social/Organizational (Clubs).  Spades were opposed to Diamonds and Hearts were opposed to Clubs.  A card is trump (played for full value) if its suit matches the action; it's opposed (played for one-quarter value) if its suit is the opposed suit; and it's neutral (played for half value) if it's one of the other two suits.  (CF's original rules were simpler; basically, a trump suit card was full value and all others were worth only one point, but you could play multiple cards to boost a low trump if you needed to.)

The strategy was basically to see how long you could hang on to high cards for their trump use before giving in to the temptation to play them on lesser challenges where they might still win, even at neutral value, because you didn't have any useful trumps for those lesser challenges.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 01, 2022, 08:23:25 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2022, 08:09:14 AM

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 03:34:49 AMWhile interesting, you could get totally screwed by the luck of the draw.

Yeah, if you're using the suits you're going to need to limit them to four things; and since any could come up on any draw, it should be a factor that could apply to any check. I'd be inclined to say "hearts = an advantage, spades = a cost, diamonds+clubs = normal."

The potential to get screwed by bad luck is part of the point of having a randomizer in the first place, I'd argue.

OK, that's fair. But when you look at why people prefer alternatives to dice is because they offer you some randomization without being subject to screwed the way dice can screw you. So if you have a system with cards, players who would be interested in it at all would probably have a very different expectation of how the system should work.

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 08:33:07 AM(W)hy people prefer alternatives to dice is because they offer you some randomization without being subject to screwed the way dice can screw you. So if you have a system with cards, players who would be interested in it at all would probably have a very different expectation of how the system should work.

Agreed. The advantage of cards is the ability to allocate your best chances to the actions where you most want them to succeed. The dis-advantage of cards is the temptation to hoard them as long as possible and then wind up getting frustrated when one spends them just a challenge or two before they're really needed -- what might be called the "Queen Susan's Horn" problem, after Prince Caspian:

Quote"If your Majesty is ever to use the Horn," said Trufflehunter, "I think the time has now come."

"We are certainly in great need," answered Caspian. "But it is hard to be sure we are at our greatest. Supposing there came an even worse need and we had already used it?"

"By that argument," said Nikabrik, "your Majesty will never use it until it is too late."

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 01, 2022, 08:45:27 AM

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 08:33:07 AM(W)hy people prefer alternatives to dice is because they offer you some randomization without being subject to screwed the way dice can screw you. So if you have a system with cards, players who would be interested in it at all would probably have a very different expectation of how the system should work.

Agreed. The advantage of cards is the ability to allocate your best chances to the actions where you most want them to succeed. The dis-advantage of cards is the temptation to hoard them as long as possible and then wind up getting frustrated when one spends them just a challenge or two before they're really needed -- what might be called the "Queen Susan's Horn" problem, after Prince Caspian:

Quote"If your Majesty is ever to use the Horn," said Trufflehunter, "I think the time has now come."

"We are certainly in great need," answered Caspian. "But it is hard to be sure we are at our greatest. Supposing there came an even worse need and we had already used it?"

"By that argument," said Nikabrik, "your Majesty will never use it until it is too late."

Saga also had an advantage there, since your hand was also your 'hit points', if you were hit, it was in your best interests to take the damage with your highest cards to maintain your hand size, rather than with lower cards while you hang on to your remaining high one.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2022, 08:09:14 AM

Quote from: migo on April 01, 2022, 03:34:49 AM
While interesting, you could get totally screwed by the luck of the draw. Unless it's a Saga-like trump for those situations. Also, looking at Saga, I would say only four suits isn't enough, you'd have to look at one of those specialty 8-suit decks.

Yeah, if you're using the suits you're going to need to limit them to four things; and since any could come up on any draw, it should be a factor that could apply to any check. I'd be inclined to say "hearts = an advantage, spades = a cost, diamonds+clubs = normal."

This allows success w. advantage, normal success, success at cost, failure w. advantage, failure and failure w. cost as results of a single card draw (and there's nothing limiting you to just one card. For a percentile system you could do two draws; one for 10's and one for 1's). You can then include abilities that allow the suits, face cards and number of cards drawn to be differently than normal.

Replying to both, first, that's where I'd see deck building coming in to play.  A rookie has a lot of cards they'd rather not draw, but the epic hero has very few.

And yes to both, again, the suits having advantage and disadvantage over each other would need to be a thing.

As well you could do Flux-like things like changing the rules for the character while the card is in play.

Ah. See I was thinking of it purely as a randomizer not as deck building and keeping hands. Instead of rolling dice, you draw a card for the 10's place and a card for the 1's place against a percentile with suits and face cards causing special results. Then you reshuffle for the next draw.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
I was thinking of it purely as a randomizer not as deck building and keeping hands. Instead of rolling dice, you draw a card for the 10's place and a card for the 1's place against a percentile with suits and face cards causing special results. Then you reshuffle for the next draw.

I think that would work better for a game where challenge draws are relatively infrequent.  Shuffling the deck after every draw seems like it would get dull pretty fast if you did it for, e.g., every exchange of blows in combat.

Besides, one of the tests of skill and judgement in using cards is precisely the challenge of remembering which cards have already been played from the deck and re-evaluating the odds of drawing what you need based on that changing information. Without cards going out of play for at least some length of time following use, that area of skill is lost.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on April 01, 2022, 06:22:24 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 01, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
I was thinking of it purely as a randomizer not as deck building and keeping hands. Instead of rolling dice, you draw a card for the 10's place and a card for the 1's place against a percentile with suits and face cards causing special results. Then you reshuffle for the next draw.

I think that would work better for a game where challenge draws are relatively infrequent.  Shuffling the deck after every draw seems like it would get dull pretty fast if you did it for, e.g., every exchange of blows in combat.

Besides, one of the tests of skill and judgement in using cards is precisely the challenge of remembering which cards have already been played from the deck and re-evaluating the odds of drawing what you need based on that changing information. Without cards going out of play for at least some length of time following use, that area of skill is lost.

Reshuffling after each draw also negates one of the advantages of a deck of cards over dice, which ends up really not being worth the extra effort.

I think the best mechanic is to draw a large hand, say ten.  A short rest lets you draw back up to ten.  A full rest means you shuffle.  Downtime lets you reconfigure your deck according to the rules.

Quote from: mcbobbo on April 02, 2022, 08:09:14 AM
I think the best mechanic is to draw a large hand, say ten.  A short rest lets you draw back up to ten.  A full rest means you shuffle.  Downtime lets you reconfigure your deck according to the rules.

OK, so there you're already assuming you'll do a D&D 4e style action economy from the start. That can work, but I guess you really need to think whether it's desirable.

Quote from: migo on April 02, 2022, 09:32:46 AM
OK, so there you're already assuming you'll do a D&D 4e style action economy from the start. That can work, but I guess you really need to think whether it's desirable.

"Really need" to think?  Why on earth is it that serious?

Quote from: mcbobbo on April 02, 2022, 10:06:22 AM

Quote from: migo on April 02, 2022, 09:32:46 AM
OK, so there you're already assuming you'll do a D&D 4e style action economy from the start. That can work, but I guess you really need to think whether it's desirable.

"Really need" to think?  Why on earth is it that serious?

4e was not a well received edition. It's why Pathfinder was so popular. If you're just making it for fun and just to play with your gaming group it doesn't matter if they like it, but if you're planning on publishing, elements from 4e are questionable.

Quote from: mcbobbo on March 29, 2022, 03:51:30 PM
I can't stop thinking about different dice resolution systems.  I feel like the "best one" is out there somewhere, and feel frustrated that I don't know what it is.  For example, I prefer target number systems with cumulative dice.  But I also prefer easy-to-follow target numbers, like percentages.  I think in percentages already anyway, so that's very natural to me.  And as a GM, it'd be easy to say guess a percentage of likelihood: "What are the chances you would fail to climb that wall?  Oh... 30% sounds good."  So today I'm noodling how to use cumulative dice to climb towards a percentage number.

I'm thinking factors.  Each one gives you (some) dice.  I'm also wondering if it would be cool or annoying to use differently shaped dice, so maybe:

Skill of 5d10, weapon quality 2d6, blessing 1d4 aiming for a Target Number of 60.

It's just a rough example.  Have you seen this before?  Am I remembering it from somewhere?

What do you think of it as a general idea?

There is no perfect system or mechanic... just good, really good, and shitty based on personal preferences.  As a game designer of nearly 40 years, I know what I'm talking about. 

Quote from: VengerSatanis on April 02, 2022, 10:31:42 AM
There is no perfect system or mechanic... just good, really good, and shitty based on personal preferences.  As a game designer of nearly 40 years, I know what I'm talking about.

It felt like you were about to say something there for a second...

Quote from: VengerSatanis on April 02, 2022, 10:31:42 AM
There is no perfect system or mechanic... just good, really good, and shitty based on personal preferences.

For me the criteria I think useful in judging a game mechanic are as follows (not necessarily in priority order):

1) Simple vs. Opaque. Is it easy to learn to use, and easy to understand and apply the results?
2) Evocative vs. Disruptive. Does it contribute to creating the atmosphere you want the gameplay to have, or does it knock players out of immersion whenever it's used?
3) Output Potential. How much information can a single use of the mechanic provide, from a single "yes-no" result to multiple rated aspects?
4) Physical Practicality. Does it use tools you can get anywhere in an easy space, or does it require you to buy custom products from the manufacturer or carry out external preparation first? (Cf. DragonRaid, the evangelical RPG where you had to memorize Bible quotes in advance to work certain in-game miraculous effects, or SAGA, which uses unique cards you can't replace if damaged except by going back to the publisher.)