Let's start with the assumption that the Drow as Gary Gygax made them were once cool. Are they now ruined beyond redemption, due to the mistreatment of them in the FR and especially that emo mary-sue Drzzt?
RPGPundit
Sorry, i can't start with the assumption that they were cool to begin with.
Who outside a small portion of our hobby even know what you are talking about if you use the word "Drow" in a sentence?
I'd say no, unless you depict them as emo rebels who cannot be defeated.
When the GM of my old gaming group (Miss you guys!) said "I'm sick of Drow; let's not have any in this game-world," not a single one of us disagreed with him. We substituted Shadar-Kai in their place. Much more interesting....
Quote from: One Horse Town;611998Sorry, i can't start with the assumption that they were cool to begin with.
This is the last time drow were cool for me
(http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images/5/5e/Drow00.jpg)
When Salvator started writing, it was a WAY overplayed race. Never should have been a PC race.
The Drow were cool as villains. I know a lot of GMs think the whole "meta-knowledge we're not even telling you" part of game rules is a no-no but the dismissive "Oh, yes, well dark elves don't really exist" throwaway line in the Monster Manual...then BAM! they show up in G2! - really cool reveal.
Unfortunately, it was all downhill from there: and I won't even lay the blame on 2e etc. although I should. These rare and mysterious folk then show up in the A series, then for some damn reason Gary made them playable in Unearthed Arcana.
So barring doing a temporary mind-wipe on yourself and traveling back to 1978 and playing the G series with a competent DM again, Drow are never going to have that zing again.
I like having evil subterranean elves that aren't drow. Just a bunch of spindly, Art Nouveau fairy villains.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611994Let's start with the assumption that the Drow as Gary Gygax made them were once cool. Are they now ruined beyond redemption, due to the mistreatment of them in the FR and especially that emo mary-sue Drzzt?
RPGPundit
No, they're not ruined.
They can still be cool in your campaign, if you ignore all that shit of course.
Being a Dark Elf player has been completely and totally destroyed. As NPCs they can be salvaged if you leave off the lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel.
I dunno, it's been a pretty long time since they were ruined. I think you can pick 'em up and do something new with them today if you wanted.
Personally I think elves are more interesting the more nature-spirit-like they are, so I'd probably do the same for drow, only align them more with caves and fungi and arthropods and maybe give them terrific appetites for things from above, whenever they actually encounter them. But that's just off the top of my head right at this moment.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;612073So barring doing a temporary mind-wipe on yourself and traveling back to 1978 and playing the G series with a competent DM again, Drow are never going to have that zing again.
Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.
Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.
I didn't either but sadly having friends who gushed about them - including non-gamer types, go figure - still irradiated me.
Paizo made a game attempt to rehabilitate the drow in their "Second Darkness" adventure path. They tweaked D&D mythology in a couple of interesting and novel ways.
Unfortunately, I don't think it really took: I suspect most potential readers, once they saw drow were the major villains in that series, decided to pass it over, which is too bad.
Quote from: Blackhand;612001Who outside a small portion of our hobby even know what you are talking about if you use the word "Drow" in a sentence?
I'd say no, unless you depict them as emo rebels who cannot be defeated.
Salvatore's novels were wildly popular even among people who didn't game. I got a friend to start gaming after I told him he was reading DnD novels - he'd read dozens of them and had no idea Forgotten Realms or Drow had anything to do with DnD.
Yes.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;612073The Drow were cool as villains. I know a lot of GMs think the whole "meta-knowledge we're not even telling you" part of game rules is a no-no but the dismissive "Oh, yes, well dark elves don't really exist" throwaway line in the Monster Manual...then BAM! they show up in G2! - really cool reveal.
Absolutely agree. Back then, they were alien, cruel, beautiful and unredeemable - existing in a world where having to treat with Aboleths and Mind Flayers are more familiar to them than their distant surface brethren - worshipping a Lolth more like a spider than an elf.
Evil races exist (among other reasons) to provide the occasional 'oddity' in relation to the rest of them. Drizz't was a good example of one for the Drow...at first. The problem to me was that he became overdone and wandered way too far into Mary Sue territory. But he didn't quite start out like that, unless you consider 'he rebelled and managed to escape' to be Mary Sue, which I find a ludicrous position.
So no, the drow aren't 'ruined' unless you have a bunch of people whose -only- introduction to them is through Drizz't. They can easily be redone, altered, modified and so on, the way we've been doing with any other source material since televisions were still sold with wired remotes.
It takes an incredible amount to get me to allow one as a PC, though. They're far better off in the DM's hands.
The whole reason Drow even were created is, I conjecture, that Gygax realized, well after the books were published, that adventurers could easily become wayyyyy more powerful than the monsters. Even the "huge, ancient, red" dragon in the MM isn't all that much considering how it's supposed to be really tough. AC -1 and 88 HP barely lasts 2 rounds against a trio of decent level fighters with comparable equipment.
So, Drow. Packed with PC abilities and classes, a few extra "screw you" abilities like poison and one-way Darkness balls....and magic items just like the PCs have, except they won't profit by looting them.
I don't know if Drow were ever cool, but they were the first glimmer of the game where monsters and players were playing by nearly the same rules, for good or ill.
Quote from: Doom;612172The whole reason Drow even were created is, I conjecture, that Gygax realized, well after the books were published, that adventurers could easily become wayyyyy more powerful than the monsters. Even the "huge, ancient, red" dragon in the MM isn't all that much considering how it's supposed to be really tough. AC -1 and 88 HP barely lasts 2 rounds against a trio of decent level fighters with comparable equipment.
.
Not to be nitpicky, but an 11th level fighter still needed an 11 to hit and an 8 or higher to save vs breath weapon; a breath weapon that did 88 hp of damage if you failed, which killed just about everyone. Most people who even made their save still died.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;612175Not to be nitpicky, but an 11th level fighter still needed an 11 to hit and an 8 or higher to save vs breath weapon; a breath weapon that did 88 hp of damage if you failed, which killed just about everyone. Most people who even made their save still died.
Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.
K?
That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11. Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.
No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.
Yeah, a butt naked fighter with 11's is going to have trouble doing it single handedly, which is why I had some qualifiers in there.
Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.
The first few were actually pretty fun. I don't blame Drizzt and I dont blame drow. I blame all the players who wanted to be Drizzt and populated the realms with countless Drizzt Do'urden carbon copies and I blame the writers who followed in Salvatore's footsteps (though I havent read his books since Icewindale, he is a pretty cool guy and a very down to earth writer when I have head him in interviews). Once in a while a character that breaks away from the norm like that can be interesting. The problem is, pretty much through most of the 90s the "misunderstood x" became a staple.
Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.
K?
That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11. Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.
No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.
Hmm, just curious. Double spec with 18/00 str is +6/+9, where's the rest? Also Bastard sword is 2d8, two-hander is 3d6.
One thing I did like about 2e was the bigass dragons. Hell yeah.
Quote from: CRKrueger;612095As NPCs they can be salvaged if you leave off the lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel.
But that's the best part!
Seriously, though, I don't think that the Drow have been "ruined." Aside from a bunch of Drizz't fanboys, Drow retain their popularity as villains in many D&D games. Nowadays, they're also a more popular PC choice. The Drizz't Clone Syndrome has worn itself out, and many Drow PCs I hear about online are more original characters.
Anything that used to be rare and mysterious but is now well-known and common has been cheapened. Moon landings and space shuttle missions became ho-hum, every day affairs that only made the front page of the paper when they crashed.
You can't bring make something mysterious after it's been fully exposed.
Quote from: CRKrueger;612184Hmm, just curious. Double spec with 18/00 str is +6/+9, where's the rest? Also Bastard sword is 2d8, two-hander is 3d6.
One thing I did like about 2e was the bigass dragons. Hell yeah.
He also said mediocre stat scores. But don't play attention. BH has shown that he doesn't get caught up in things like factual details.
Also, it should be noted that the MM dragon was statted out long before weapon specialization (let alone double spec) was ever a thing. If you're gonna play with those add-on rules to your 1e game, also play with updated dragon rules that appeared in various dragon magazines
No, they haven't been ruined, but long-time gamers are tired of them as a concept thanks to overuse. Let them rest a decade or two.
Quote from: This Guy;612205No, they haven't been ruined, but long-time gamers are tired of them as a concept thanks to overuse. Let them rest a decade or two.
Agreed. I'd like to see gnoll and bugbear and hobgoblin culture fleshed out like the Drow were (detailed culture, politics, etc). I think you could do quite a bit with those three races.
Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.
You didn't miss much. I read them a year or two ago, and thought they were middle-of-the-road, at best.
I still love drow as villains, though. If it really bothers you, just make them albino. ;)
Drow still have power as villains, but you need to strip off enough details to put the "WTF" factor back into high gear. They need to be made mysterious again, so players dealing with them are forced to say "What the @#$% are THESE things?! I thought that we were fighting drow!"
No, they're just fine.
I am not sure. I have seen portrayals that I liked (Baldur's Gate 2, for example) and similar ideas that worked well (Shadow Elves). But I do think it makes sense to create an interesting evil race rather than one that is naturally evil. Something like city states of the Italian renaissance with the dirty politics and corrupt clergy (think Cardinal Borgia) might make sense.
But the modern portrayal is a little hackneyed and the extreme evil doesn't make sense for a society that is actually stable. But add in some corruption with a surprising depth of magical and martial skill . . . it might be cool.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;612207Agreed. I'd like to see gnoll and bugbear and hobgoblin culture fleshed out like the Drow were (detailed culture, politics, etc). I think you could do quite a bit with those three races.
You know who I'd like to see fleshed out more? Sahuagin.
They're very intelligent, they have huge kingdoms and empires in Material Plane oceans, a rare few look like Aquatic Elves and can infiltrate communities this way, and they domesticate sharks.
Hear that?
Domesticated sharks!
Quote from: Votan;612228I am not sure. I have seen portrayals that I liked (Baldur's Gate 2, for example) and similar ideas that worked well (Shadow Elves). But I do think it makes sense to create an interesting evil race rather than one that is naturally evil. Something like city states of the Italian renaissance with the dirty politics and corrupt clergy (think Cardinal Borgia) might make sense.
But the modern portrayal is a little hackneyed and the extreme evil doesn't make sense for a society that is actually stable. But add in some corruption with a surprising depth of magical and martial skill . . . it might be cool.
Menzoberrenzan [sp?] is a bit like that, but they have to reconcile the idea of actually running a society with worshiping an insane Chaotic Evil demon goddess who makes her displeasure actively known. But then, that's why the answer to the question "how would a society with real magic and miracles work?" is the same as the answer to the question "how would a society with telepathy work?" Answer: It wouldn't. :p
JG
Quote from: One Horse Town;611998Sorry, i can't start with the assumption that they were cool to begin with.
Preach it.
Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.
K?
That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11. Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.
No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.
Charop wankery and a DM with no fucking clue? You were way ahead of your time, dude...
If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, Drow are probably ruined forever. Of course, if you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, you probably don't mind that fact. Or a whole bunch of other crap that makes the Realms unplayable for a host of players...
But drow, in and of themselves, can still be salvaged on a campaign-by-campaign basis - even as Player Characters. It just takes a DM stripping away what doesn't work, and potentially players that will follow the DMs lead on 'campaign world'.
Quote from: Fiasco;612276Charop wankery and a DM with no fucking clue? You were way ahead of your time, dude...
Really? Then explain
Quote from: RPGPundit;606066Because like it or not, it is a game with an element of competition. You have a challenge to see who outlasts, and succeeds with their character; through luck or through cunning, and these should get to be the veterans looked at with some awe by the newcomers.
Never quite understood this. The game has this
element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?
I never had problems with the drows as a major and "cool" villan. They played a major part in the chapter of my FR campaign set in Myth Drannor just before the fall and worked fine.
I read Salvatore's original trilogy when it was published and I found it really "meh". "Darkwalker on Moonshae" was much better for this teenager, and it still is (strictly the first one, the other two were dire). However, the idea of a "renegade drow" was not bad by itself. The problems came when, all of sudden, 99% of the drow became "renegade ones".
The idea of a minority of drows refusing the general "credo" and huddling around a small, suffering, goddess (Kiaransalee), is not bad. I used it for the third episode of my current campaign, "CSI Waterdeep". It started off as a joke on the "obligatory episode" about a minority suffering from preconceived hate (Islamics, Italians, take your pick) and it turned out exceedingly well. Still, this kind of approach NEEDS the drow in his classic evil form - and they were strongly present as such in the episode, or the whole dramatic structure would have collapsed.
Anyway, after the LotR movies came out, every one and single elf was Orlando Bloom firing Sidewinder missiles. There is nothing that can be done, except accept the burden of suffering and soldier on.
Quote from: Sommerjon;612282Really? Then explain
Never quite understood this. The game has this element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?
There is no way you can come close to creating the bullshit bonuses Blackhand claims for 1st level characters unless through charop wankery and an incredibly stupid/Monty Haul DM. That's a long fucking way from rolling 3d6 and making the best character you can...
No, I don't think crap game-fic ever "ruins" anything. Years of bad FR novels haven't made gray box 1e FR any less of a good setting for the enterprising DM. Hell, even the Dragonlance setting can make for some decent gaming, if you excise the worst fiction tie-ins.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;612279If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, Drow are probably ruined forever. Of course, if you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, you probably don't mind that fact. Or a whole bunch of other crap that makes the Realms unplayable for a host of players...
:rotfl:
Let's just say, I was glad the Night Below Box Set went with Rockseer Elves instead of Drow.
If that's not a big enough hint, then know that I rooted like hell for Artemis Entreri in every Drizz't book I read in high school.
Quote from: CRKrueger;612095Being a Dark Elf player has been completely and totally destroyed. As NPCs they can be salvaged if you leave off the lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel.
I actually like Drow being fond of mental and physical torture.
I also have always found drow to be cool.
I have no problem with a pc drow if they actually roleplay it well.
I've pretty much put them on the shelf as NPC only.
Yet, I would let you play a wemic, grippli or giff if we were playing Spelljammer.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;612068(http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images/5/5e/Drow00.jpg)
I've always enjoyed the Spider-man-esque mask on the box... :cool:
I shocked the hell out of my players in my last Pathfinder campaign, by daring to have Drow turn out to be
just Elves with dark skin. No special abilities, like magic resistance or the like. Just elves, with a wicked sense of vengeance.
Quote from: Novastar;612382I've always enjoyed the Spider-man-esque mask on the box... :cool:
I shocked the hell out of my players in my last Pathfinder campaign, by daring to have Drow turn out to be just Elves with dark skin. No special abilities, like magic resistance or the like. Just elves, with a wicked sense of vengeance.
In one campaign I made Drow exactly like surface elves in appearence. Players seemed slow to grasp that the beautiful, polite, and helpful Drow were dangerous :)
They learned.
Quote from: Novastar;612382I shocked the hell out of my players in my last Pathfinder campaign, by daring to have Drow turn out to be just Elves with dark skin. No special abilities, like magic resistance or the like. Just elves, with a wicked sense of vengeance.
Quote from: Bill;612384In one campaign I made Drow exactly like surface elves in appearence. Players seemed slow to grasp that the beautiful, polite, and helpful Drow were dangerous :)
They learned.
That's how I roll with my "dark elves" too. The kicker is that my D&D games' elves are the remnants of mighty and warlike sorcerous empire (think Atlantis or Moorcock's Melniboné). The "dark elves" are those who refused to go gentle into the good night and want a return to the days of enslaving the "ephemerals" (short-lived races like, you know, humans) and ruling the world.
Melnibonean's (spelling?) are probably my favorite take on Elves.
Quote from: The Butcher;612328No, I don't think crap game-fic ever "ruins" anything. Years of bad FR novels haven't made gray box 1e FR any less of a good setting for the enterprising DM. Hell, even the Dragonlance setting can make for some decent gaming, if you excise the worst fiction tie-ins.
It's a hit and it's out of the park!
Drow could be still cool, even though one fiction protagonist is way overdone. Elminster is a wanker, but it doesn't spoil Humans or Magic-Users. All halflings don't have to be Frodo (or whichever other Hobbit).
I figure all NPC races should be tweaked in a campaign, as at least some of the players have read the rulebooks. Have Lolth be a cave scorpion or a crab or something and see what changes. Have them develop hand-to-hand martial arts with poisoned claws instead of scimitars to fight better in tight passageways. Whatever throws the PCs for a loop.
But I like that these are the elves that don't flee across the ocean at the slightest danger, and they're pissed off about it. I like the evil sexy dominatrix matriarchy torture thing. I like that an evil civilized society can function indefinitely.
Quote from: Bill;612392Melnibonean's (spelling?) are probably my favorite take on Elves.
In lieu of Drow I prefer the Ur-Viles from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, they seem much more exotic and terrifying, and really something that should be living in deep underground caverns.
Quote from: Bill;612347I actually like Drow being fond of mental and physical torture.
Yeah but Drow are fond of real mental and physical torture, not something out of a Gor or Anita Blake novel.
Have to agree with the second post in the whole thread, they've never really been cool to begin with.
You want an evil, scheming subterranean race? Sure thing, why not - but why do they have to be elves? Why does it have to be evil, scheming subterranear elves? Or evil, scheming subterranean dwarves (we have those, too)? Or halflings (don't have those AFAIK, must be an oversight)? Why couldn't they have been a race of evil subterranean schemers that aren't yet one more taste of the Ye Olde Standarde demihumans? What's wrong with Mind Flayers, why couldn't they have replaced the drow entirely?
It's the whole damn "stock demihuman taxonomy" issue, really. Want to fill a new niche? Who in their right mind would want to create a brand new race, when you can just get lazy, take one of the tired old default races and give it a paintjob? Elves underground. Dwarves at sea. Halflings in the jungle. Jews in Space.
I prefer Warhammer's Dark Elves (and Dark Eldar) to how Drow have been presented since the beginning, mostly because TSR always went for the PG whereas early GW was firmly R rated evil elves.
Plus, Malus Darkblade kicks Drizzt's ass.
If you can manage to make them mysterious, enigmatic and above all creepy as hell Drow could still be cool as villains. (Play up the spider-worship and torture-for-fun angles.) But this is hard with the Mary-Suing they've received via FR.
It's best to think of Greyhawk Drow and Forgettable Realms Drow as two totally different races with only superficial similarities, kind of like standard D&D halflings versus Dark Sun halflings. Greyhawk Drow have their uses, but Realms Drow can go fuck themselves sideways.
They need serious help. The Realms crap ruined them, and they have not recovered.
First, Drow should be considered a Mastermind class of villain. Echoing their demonic matron, they should be a race of schemers and plotters; they sit at the center of a web of contacts, henchmen, thralls and less-than-loyal allies. They should be doing as they did in the Against The Giants series: operating through cutouts and frontmen that they control. Ideally, PCs should combat a Drow without ever knowing it was there because your PCs fought it's plan, not just it; you can, and should, accomplish this by the expedient of playing them as if they were stereotypically (cunning) PCs themselves.
Second, Drow should operate in a manner where outsiders would not know them as such. A combination of magical and mundane disguise and concealment abilities should be sufficient, especially when layered down at least three layers thick; a surface layer is that of a high-status individual of the subject or minion race used by a Drow (not necessarily a ruler, but someone readily believable as being in regular contact with one), followed by a layer that has the Drow appearing as a known threat race/group to the PC, and finally as a rumored/legendary--but still known--threat heretofore out of living memory. Only after those three layers would the Drow be revealed as such.
Third, Drow--like real spies--should not fuck around. They are neither fools nor fuckwits. They should know what a viable threat is, and be willing and able to deal with it accordingly. Most PCs, early on, will not be such threats but instead obstacles that can be handled by misdirection. They will do that and avoid risking exposure; if they come in their own right for you, that's the sign that (a) you've hurt them seriously and (b) they take you seriously as a threat- which is (c) sometimes called "the morbid seal of approval". Instead, they will point PCs at other threats to their plans, use cutouts/henchmen to do the wetwork and otherwise burn through deniable means before resorting to getting their hands bloody by doing their dirty work themselves.
At no point should they ever become nameless mooks. That's setting sail for Fail.
Quote from: Looter Guy;612109Im so glad I never read the Drzzt books... alot of friends urged me to do so in highschool but I was so adamant to DL books that I wouldnt switch over.
You and me both. I was never a member of the Cult of Drizzt, and I was fine with that.
The DM of our long running 3.0 campaign has a different take on the Drow: the Drow are the "evil twin" of the surface Elves. Literally. There is one Drow who is exactly in the image of a surface Elf, and the Drow have been secretly infiltrating the surface Elves over the past decade by murdering off their surface twin and taking their place.
Quote from: CRKrueger;612468Yeah but Drow are fond of real mental and physical torture, not something out of a Gor or Anita Blake novel.
I have read both of those, and I agree.
Quote from: The Traveller;612429In lieu of Drow I prefer the Ur-Viles from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, they seem much more exotic and terrifying, and really something that should be living in deep underground caverns.
I forgot about them.
"Nom"
Just say it.
What I don't like about Drow is that elves have a splendid history of being evil villains w/o the whole nine inch nails fan baggage, and can do the job just fine fairy tale style.
Another take: the drow are elves. Just the same as any other elf. Elves, you see, live unbelievably long lives, and sometimes they get bored of frolicking in the meadows and strumming lutes and decide to head down to the deep underground for a spot of ultraviolence, reverse hair & skin color (to spook the lesser, dumber humanoids), and poison poison poison. And then after a few decades of that they get bored, switch back, and go back to dancing in the treetops and none of their peers care. 'Cause elves are kinda fucked up like that.
Quote from: Imp;612590Another take: the drow are elves. Just the same as any other elf. Elves, you see, live unbelievably long lives, and sometimes they get bored of frolicking in the meadows and strumming lutes and decide to head down to the deep underground for a spot of ultraviolence, reverse hair & skin color (to spook the lesser, dumber humanoids), and poison poison poison. And then after a few decades of that they get bored, switch back, and go back to dancing in the treetops and none of their peers care. 'Cause elves are kinda fucked up like that.
I could buy this.
JG
Quote from: Premier;612504You want an evil, scheming subterranean race? Sure thing, why not - but why do they have to be elves? Why does it have to be evil, scheming subterranear elves? Or evil, scheming subterranean dwarves (we have those, too)?
I'ts a Junghian thing.
Quote from: Bill;612574I forgot about them.
"Nom"
Just say it.
Heh, thanks internet. They must win the "most difficult to visualise monster ever" award though, beating even Lovecraft's tentacled pyramid hatstands.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611994Let's start with the assumption that the Drow as Gary Gygax made them were once cool.
That's not an assumption I can get behind.
Quote from: Imp;612590Another take: the drow are elves. Just the same as any other elf. Elves, you see, live unbelievably long lives, and sometimes they get bored of frolicking in the meadows and strumming lutes and decide to head down to the deep underground for a spot of ultraviolence, reverse hair & skin color (to spook the lesser, dumber humanoids), and poison poison poison. And then after a few decades of that they get bored, switch back, and go back to dancing in the treetops and none of their peers care. 'Cause elves are kinda fucked up like that.
"Before you go spend some time in the deep be sure to visit one of our elven super-tanning salons..."
Quote from: Imp;612590Another take: the drow are elves. Just the same as any other elf. Elves, you see, live unbelievably long lives, and sometimes they get bored of frolicking in the meadows and strumming lutes and decide to head down to the deep underground for a spot of ultraviolence, reverse hair & skin color (to spook the lesser, dumber humanoids), and poison poison poison. And then after a few decades of that they get bored, switch back, and go back to dancing in the treetops and none of their peers care. 'Cause elves are kinda fucked up like that.
I like that.
IT works especially well for something like 40k Eldar - they do the entire Path thing, there's plenty of potential Paths in the Dark Eldar. Path of the Torturer, of the Slave...
It also lets you have a backstabbing, paranoid culture that survives - a full-on All Backstabbing, All The Time culture would collapse in on itself pretty quickly.
Having members of the species willingly sign up to be a ritually abused slave for a lifetime, as part of their personal development, also helps highlight that they are utterly alien to us and our way of thinking...
Quote from: Imp;612590Another take: the drow are elves. Just the same as any other elf. Elves, you see, live unbelievably long lives, and sometimes they get bored of frolicking in the meadows and strumming lutes and decide to head down to the deep underground for a spot of ultraviolence, reverse hair & skin color (to spook the lesser, dumber humanoids), and poison poison poison. And then after a few decades of that they get bored, switch back, and go back to dancing in the treetops and none of their peers care. 'Cause elves are kinda fucked up like that.
Interesting, but that's an explanation that would change how all elves would be perceived in general I would think. In a Warhammer or Lamentations of the Flame Princess flavored game, that would be very workable.
Id consider making them a type of Fey being that in one form looks much like an elf - maybe one of a variety of changelings that get swapped with elf babies (assuming D&D style and not Tolkein style elves). They look normal for the most part, until they reach that critical age.
In my home-brew, elves are still an immortal race. Long before the dawn of man, some elves were captured and enslaved by the mind-flayers. Over countless ages, they were twisted and perverted; eventually winning their freedom. However, the surface and the light are anathema to them, and their true elven kin spurn them. While the drow are wicked and vicious creatures, they believe that the elves betrayed them by not doing more to see them freed.
Whether all the drow are ancient beyond reckoning or whether they continue to produce young remains something of a mystery.
Quote from: One Horse Town;611998Sorry, i can't start with the assumption that they were cool to begin with.
I think that the Gygax-era Drow were pretty cool villains.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;611994Let's start with the assumption that the Drow as Gary Gygax made them were once cool. Are they now ruined beyond redemption, due to the mistreatment of them in the FR and especially that emo mary-sue Drzzt?
RPGPundit
Yes.
Oh my fucking god, yes.
My homebrew fantasy setting is pretty much free of elves/dwarves/orcs/dragons... but I do have an NPC 'race' based on the subterranean weirdos of Lovecraft's 'The Mound'... living in the realm of K'n-yan with their mutant-human cattle/slaves, weird mind powers, Cthulhu worship, decadent habits, and ability to dematerialize. They'd fit right into a Merritt story as well.
It was only recently that I realized any D&D fans I invite to my game are gonna read them as thinly disguised Drow.
Quote from: Premier;612504Jews in Space.
I'm wondering how many people get that reference.
Quote from: Blackhand;612180No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.
Y'know, I was about to respond to this, and then I saw who posted it, and I just shrugged and thought, why bother?
Quote from: RPGPundit;612985I think that the Gygax-era Drow were pretty cool villains.
Yep.
I tend to think these days, that evil elves in general are very difficult to make work. (Or elves in general for that matter).
There is enough weirdness in the original conception of the Drow and the Underdark that you could possibly make them work even now, but you'd be fighting pre-conceptions uphill all the way.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613062I'm wondering how many people get that reference.
Red Dwarf?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;613074Red Dwarf?
Mel Brooks.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613062I'm wondering how many people get that reference.
C'mon everyone knows Mel Brooks, don't they?
All the staple D&D races are overdone by the time you have been playing for 30 years. It's why 4e added a load of other shit races with cool new powerz well that and to sell more rules.
The answer should be that all demi humans are removed from the game. Then give the GM a toolbox to create new interesting races for their setting.
For the lazy or unimaginative sell new settings that use the toolbox to create new and interesting races. If you pick up a new fantasy novel and their are elves and hobbits and dwarves and its all the same old shit you wouldn't bother to read it. The same should be true of RPGs.
Give me the tools to create my own races inside a structured framework so I can create my own elves, sea faring bucaneer elves with green skin and gills, or dark skinned cave dwellers that worship spiders if I can't think of any of my own fcuking ideas....
Any anyone that spend their teen years reading shit D&D fiction when the world is literally full of wonderful actual books that are just waiting to be read should have their youth expunged from the record books.
Quote from: Doom;613076Mel Brooks.
doh. I totally should have known that. I guess I was thinking it was very obscure.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;613103I guess I was thinking it was very obscure.
I'm betting Premier was referring to
Space Viking, not Mel Brooks, so yeah, it might actually be a bit obscure if that's the case.
Quote from: jibbajibba;613081Any anyone that spend their teen years reading shit D&D fiction when the world is literally full of wonderful actual books that are just waiting to be read should have their youth expunged from the record books.
Well, I read both "actual books" (Faeire Queene by Spencer in his original language - and English is not even my first language) and D&D/FR novels.
Re: FR novels, I admit a personal weakness: they are so stupid, they are relaxing. My GF has a degree in Italian Literature and Arts, and she watches soap operas - so I guess everyone of us need a personal stupid space (even my avatar, Gregory House, sometimes "just wants to spend an evening alone, with a glass of wiskey in hand, watching "Real Housewifes of New Jersey"... :) )
However, there are some decent to good FR books which sports one or more of three qualities: they are simply good reads ("Elfshadow") or give you glimpses of the "daily life in the realms", with places, people, descriptions and so on.
Then, true, there is Lankmar, Lovecraft & Howard, Thieves World, Moorkock - not to mention the droves of both classic and good popular literature that can also give ideas for fantasy adventures (Tom Clancy is a favourite of mine when it comes to Empire/Gods-level conpiracies...) But sometimes I only need a good description of daily life in Arabel - even in the context of a depressing plot quality-wise - to be happy with my "Real Housewifes of Cormir" dose :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;613081Any anyone that spend their teen years reading shit D&D fiction when the world is literally full of wonderful actual books that are just waiting to be read should have their youth expunged from the record books.
Dude part of being a teenager is not knowing, and mostly being incapable of knowing, what is actually good for you.
So lighten up.
Quote from: Piestrio;613115Dude part of being a teenager is not knowing, and mostly being incapable of knowing, what is actually good for you.
So lighten up.
I was being tongue in cheek .... but surely even a pre-pubescent 11 year old knows that if a book is set in, the Forgetten Realms Universe, the Star Trek Universe, the Star Wars Universe, the
Universe it is drivel. My mum taught me few things but that was number 3.
Quote from: RPGPundit;612985I think that the Gygax-era Drow were pretty cool villains.
RPGPundit
Hear Hear.
jg
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613062I'm wondering how many people get that reference.
Ze Jews
In Space
Ze zooming around, protecting ze Hebrew Race
Ze Jews, up in Spa-ace
Ze running around [something something in Yiddish]
And when ze Goyim attacks us,
We hit him right back in iz face
[PEW! PIOW! PEW!]
Ze JEWS up in SPA-AACE,
Ze zooming ARO-OUND
Protecting
Ze He-brew RA-A-ACE
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613111I'm betting Premier was referring to Space Viking, not Mel Brooks, so yeah, it might actually be a bit obscure if that's the case.
H. Beam Piper? I don't see how that follows....
Quote from: jeff37923;613131H. Beam Piper? I don't see how that follows....
The Gilgameshers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceJews).
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613111I'm betting Premier was referring to Space Viking, not Mel Brooks, so yeah, it might actually be a bit obscure if that's the case.
Just to set the record straight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo), I was referring to Mel Brooks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;612985I think that the Gygax-era Drow were pretty cool villains.
RPGPundit
I've never liked them. I guess you can say that i like them less now than back then, but it is a low bar.
Quote from: jibbajibba;613122I was being tongue in cheek .... but surely even a pre-pubescent 11 year old knows that if a book is set in, the Forgetten Realms Universe, the Star Trek Universe, the Star Wars Universe, the Universe it is drivel. My mum taught me few things but that was number 3.
Damn. I am more than 4 times that age, and I find enjoyment in drivel.
My mom called sci fi 'That far out stuff'
Of course, every sci fi and fantasy novel I gave her to read she enjoyed.
My mom loved sci-fi so much that she brought me to see "Alien" when I was 9, saying "It is just like Space 1999!" I remember being scared by the human spaceship itself even before the rest of the stuff happened.
Quote from: Reckall;613209My mom loved sci-fi so much that she brought me to see "Alien" when I was 9, saying "It is just like Space 1999!" I remember being scared by the human spaceship itself even before the rest of the stuff happened.
Damn. I can relate. Only instead of Alien, for me it was John Carpenter's The Thing, about the same age. I don't know what my dad was thinking. I do remember my mom getting all pissed off at him :)
Quote from: Premier;613164Just to set the record straight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo), I was referring to Mel Brooks.
I'm . . . disappointed.
Quote from: Reckall;613209My mom loved sci-fi so much that she brought me to see "Alien" when I was 9, saying "It is just like Space 1999!"
That explains why it was so easy to knock Ash's head off. Clearly basement budget.
JG
Quote from: Bill;613174Damn. I am more than 4 times that age, and I find enjoyment in drivel.
My mom called sci fi 'That far out stuff'
Of course, every sci fi and fantasy novel I gave her to read she enjoyed.
My mum also loved Scifi and read a book a day which is why I now have about 4000 books a lot of which are junk scifi but at least they are LeGuinn, Asimov, Pohl, Doc Smith and Dick junk Scifi. Also fantasy novels by the bucket and when I was sorting them all out I was sorry to say even a handful of D&D books .... (and oddly 3 complete sets of Covenant) I even tried to read a D&D book (one of the Dragon Lance ones) ... terrible.
You have to remember after she retired my mum ran a massive D&D world with about 3 concurrant groups of 6-10 players after I introduced her to D&D as a way to get over agrophobia and clinical depression.... and my sister, now an English teacher, lists her main act of teen rebellion as not reading the Lord of the Rings. So perhaps my experience differs somewhat from other posters :)
In my Albion game, rather than bothering with anything like Drow, I just made my full-blooded elves into terrifying motherfuckers.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;613679In my Albion game, rather than bothering with anything like Drow, I just made my full-blooded elves into terrifying motherfuckers.
RPGPundit
Which if you're taking from Sidhe rather than Tolkien-Elves, is not inappropriate.
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;613679In my Albion game, rather than bothering with anything like Drow, I just made my full-blooded elves into terrifying motherfuckers.
RPGPundit
I do this in my personal dnd setting. Elves should be terrifying in my opinion.
I still have drow, and they are no better, but they pretend to be.
Quote from: RPGPundit;611994Let's start with the assumption that the Drow as Gary Gygax made them were once cool. Are they now ruined beyond redemption, due to the mistreatment of them in the FR and especially that emo mary-sue Drzzt?
Yes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;613679In my Albion game, rather than bothering with anything like Drow, I just made my full-blooded elves into terrifying motherfuckers.
I like elves to be like the pharisees of
Three Hearts and Three Lions.
Quote from: Doctor Jest;613778Yes.
Are there any Drizzt defenders out there?
Someone must like the character.
Quote from: RPGPundit;613679In my Albion game, rather than bothering with anything like Drow, I just made my full-blooded elves into terrifying motherfuckers.
RPGPundit
So do I, and at least a couple of other people. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=612388&postcount=47) I usually describe mine as Moorcock's Melnibonéans dressed up as Tolkien's Elves.
Quote from: The Butcher;613798So do I, and at least a couple of other people. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=612388&postcount=47) I usually describe mine as Moorcock's Melnibonéans dressed up as Tolkien's Elves.
Dark Elves in Warhammer Fantasy are like this, as well.
Quote from: Bill;613796Are there any Drizzt defenders out there?
Someone must like the character.
I don't think there's that many adolescants posting here.
I still plan on getting The Legend of Drizzt. Mostly for the components.
Quote from: TristramEvans;613862I don't think there's that many adolescants posting here.
Or fans of androgynous metro-sexual emos.
Drizz't, the Edward Cullen of Forgotten Realms
Quote from: Sacrosanct;613870Or fans of androgynous metro-sexual emos.
I still dig the "lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel", though. :)
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613786I like elves to be like the pharisees of Three Hearts and Three Lions.
That's a great take too.
JG
Quote from: Bill;613796Are there any Drizzt defenders out there?
Someone must like the character.
I like Drizzt. And Wolverine. They're just overexposed.
I also like lesbian-stripper-BDSM-ninjas, but then there's no such thing as overexposed. :D
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;614111I like Drizzt. And Wolverine. They're just overexposed.
I also like lesbian-stripper-BDSM-ninjas, but then there's no such thing as overexposed. :D
jg
I tend to agree with that about Wolverine and Drizzt.
As for female Drow, I tend to view them more as aggressive devious manipulative bondage sadist ninjas.
Not sure they need to be masochistic, lesbian or strippers :)
At Barnes and Nobles last night, I saw that half a shelf of RPG fiction was full of Drizzt. How can that guy still be going? How can an author still find shit for him to do?
Quote from: Patrick;614163At Barnes and Nobles last night, I saw that half a shelf of RPG fiction was full of Drizzt. How can that guy still be going? How can an author still find shit for him to do?
I am often curious about how he keeps the series going. I honestly enjoyed the Crystal Shard (and the other Icewindale books) when it came out. It was good fun, and I liked reading something set in a a familiar D&D setting. When they came out, the Drizzt character was a somewhat novel take on Drow, and it worked. For me the problem isn't Drizzt (there is room in ay setting for an exception) but that you had so many players and writiers following suit. I haven't kept up, nor have I gone back and re-read the Icewind Dale books to see if they stand the test of time so no idea where he is with the character now. In interviews with Salvatore, he makes a positive impression on me, and seems a bit like a Steven King type (in the sense that he knows he is writing to entertain, not produce high art) and I suspect that is part of why the books can keep coming. He just isn't one of these authors that is easy to dislike when you listen to him speak. Obviously enough people are buying them, that he can keep writing. He is also a gamer, continues to play some kind fo variation on 2E, and so I wouldn't be surprised if the books are a bit like a 25 year old campaign at this stage.
I heard he was trapped in a contract to write x number of Drizztastic books.
Or perhaps they sell?
I liked some of his books; Crystal Shard is probably my favorite of his.
Quote from: Bill;614171I heard he was trapped in a contract to write x number of Drizztastic books..
He may be. But that is a good problem to have. He gets a steady paycheck for writing fantasy books. Not many people have that.
Quote from: Patrick;614163At Barnes and Nobles last night, I saw that half a shelf of RPG fiction was full of Drizzt. How can that guy still be going? How can an author still find shit for him to do?
Right now he's just written the prelude for the Neverwinter MMO that is coming out, which was 3 books that are supposed to act as a sort of segue between 4e's FR and 5e's FR. And yes, all three books are very much all about Drizz't
Like Brendan, I enjoyed the Crystal Shard series, but quickly began to get burnt out after the next ones. I've probably read a dozen books about Drizz't over the years, but managed to avoid the 6 novel (or more) series about Menzoberranazan. I honestly have no desire to go and read those.
Quote from: Sommerjon;612282Never quite understood this. The game has this element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?
I would submit that what Pundit is referring to is the friendly competition between the players, using the cunning and skill of the players to play their characters (whether combat optimized or not) well enough to survive to higher levels.
As for Drow, I am still willing to use them, so I would say they are not ruined for me. I would be much more likely to use them as a type of Unseelie Court though, instead of the way they are presented in the games. Nocturnal, not subterranean. As Gollum would put it, "wicked, tricksy, false". I would certainly not have my Drow worshiping a demon, especially a spider one. I would never be willing to allow one as a PC.
The elves in my not quite realised yet setting are very much Seelie/Unseelie Court style, and are like kender-sized elves rather than the more modern take. They don't act like kender, but are short like kender or 3.x halflings. They, dwarves, and goblins are native to their world, where humans, orcs, giants, ogres, etc are not. My elves can be friendly to humans, both Seelie and Unseelie, but can also be quite terrifying. Of course the Unseelie start from a position of hostility, where the Seelies start from a position of benevolent neutrality towards humans. The dwarves have a society much like the Roman Republic, and the goblins are very much like a Warg-riding version of the Mongols in my setting.
Quote from: Sommerjon;612282Never quite understood this. The game has this element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?
There is a big difference between making a character who is believable and effective, and working the rules like a tax lawyer to squeeze every drop of power out of the system possible. The latter is still a viable way to play the game, but one that most players I meet find disruptive (I actually don't think it is bad, just different). It is the difference between a bit of friendly competition and bloodsport.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;613210Damn. I can relate. Only instead of Alien, for me it was John Carpenter's The Thing, about the same age. I don't know what my dad was thinking. I do remember my mom getting all pissed off at him :)
LOL! My childhood movie episode needing to be worked out through therapy was my parents, for some crazy reason, taking me to see The Godfather at the drive-in. To this day the horse head in the bed scene and the toll booth scene both give me the willies :D
Quote from: James Gillen;613704Which if you're taking from Sidhe rather than Tolkien-Elves, is not inappropriate.
JG
You got it in one.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Sigmund;614189LOL! My childhood movie episode needing to be worked out through therapy was my parents, for some crazy reason, taking me to see The Godfather at the drive-in. To this day the horse head in the bed scene and the toll booth scene both give me the willies :D
I too watched The Godfather when I was a kid, and it didn't scare me very much. But the horse head scene was Alien-level for me too :D
Strangely enough, my parents got all miffed when my cousin brought me to see "Saturday Night Fever" (I was 11, he was 21). Not only I enjoyed it a lot, but I found it, even at that age, an heart-wrenching drama. Even today not many people realize how SNF isn't a musical at all - more a modern version of La Dolce Vita.
Quote from: Reckall;614606I too watched The Godfather when I was a kid, and it didn't scare me very much. But the horse head scene was Alien-level for me too :D
Strangely enough, my parents got all miffed when my cousin brought me to see "Saturday Night Fever" (I was 11, he was 21). Not only I enjoyed it a lot, but I found it, even at that age, an heart-wrenching drama. Even today not many people realize how SNF isn't a musical at all - more a modern version of La Dolce Vita.
I saw Jaws in the theater when it came out too, but oddly enough it didn't bother me near as much as the horse head scene.
Quote from: Sigmund;614637I saw Jaws in the theater when it came out too, but oddly enough it didn't bother me near as much as the horse head scene.
I saw
Jaws in the theatre, too, and between that and reading
Blue Water White Death, I was afraid to get in the
shower.