No, they're just fine.

I am not sure.  I have seen portrayals that I liked (Baldur's Gate 2, for example) and similar ideas that worked well (Shadow Elves).  But I do think it makes sense to create an interesting evil race rather than one that is naturally evil.  Something like city states of the Italian renaissance with the dirty politics and corrupt clergy (think Cardinal Borgia) might make sense.  

But the modern portrayal is a little hackneyed and the extreme evil doesn't make sense for a society that is actually stable.  But add in some corruption with a surprising depth of magical and martial skill . . . it might be cool.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;612207Agreed.  I'd like to see gnoll and bugbear and hobgoblin culture fleshed out like the Drow were (detailed culture, politics, etc).  I think you could do quite a bit with those three races.

You know who I'd like to see fleshed out more?  Sahuagin.

They're very intelligent, they have huge kingdoms and empires in Material Plane oceans, a rare few look like Aquatic Elves and can infiltrate communities this way, and they domesticate sharks.

Hear that?  Domesticated sharks!

Quote from: Votan;612228I am not sure.  I have seen portrayals that I liked (Baldur's Gate 2, for example) and similar ideas that worked well (Shadow Elves).  But I do think it makes sense to create an interesting evil race rather than one that is naturally evil.  Something like city states of the Italian renaissance with the dirty politics and corrupt clergy (think Cardinal Borgia) might make sense.  

But the modern portrayal is a little hackneyed and the extreme evil doesn't make sense for a society that is actually stable.  But add in some corruption with a surprising depth of magical and martial skill . . . it might be cool.

Menzoberrenzan [sp?] is a bit like that, but they have to reconcile the idea of actually running a society with worshiping an insane Chaotic Evil demon goddess who makes her displeasure actively known.  But then, that's why the answer to the question "how would a society with real magic and miracles work?" is the same as the answer to the question "how would a society with telepathy work?"  Answer: It wouldn't.  

JG

Quote from: One Horse Town;611998Sorry, i can't start with the assumption that they were cool to begin with.

Preach it.

Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.

K?

That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11.  Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.

No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.

Charop wankery and a DM with no fucking clue? You were way ahead of your time, dude...

If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, Drow are probably ruined forever.  Of course, if you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, you probably don't mind that fact.  Or a whole bunch of other crap that makes the Realms unplayable for a host of players...  

But drow, in and of themselves, can still be salvaged on a campaign-by-campaign basis - even as Player Characters.  It just takes a DM stripping away what doesn't work, and potentially players that will follow the DMs lead on 'campaign world'.

Quote from: Fiasco;612276Charop wankery and a DM with no fucking clue? You were way ahead of your time, dude...

Really?  Then explain

Quote from: RPGPundit;606066Because like it or not, it is a game with an element of competition.  You have a challenge to see who outlasts, and succeeds with their character; through luck or through cunning, and these should get to be the veterans looked at with some awe by the newcomers.

Never quite understood this.  The game has this element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?

I never had problems with the drows as a major and "cool" villan. They played a major part in the chapter of my FR campaign set in Myth Drannor just before the fall and worked fine.

I read Salvatore's original trilogy when it was published and I found it really "meh". "Darkwalker on Moonshae" was much better for this teenager, and it still is (strictly the first one, the other two were dire). However, the idea of a "renegade drow" was not bad by itself. The problems came when, all of sudden, 99% of the drow became "renegade ones".

The idea of a minority of drows refusing the general "credo" and huddling around a small, suffering, goddess (Kiaransalee), is not bad. I used it for the third episode of my current campaign, "CSI Waterdeep". It started off as a joke on the "obligatory episode" about a minority suffering from preconceived hate (Islamics, Italians, take your pick) and it turned out exceedingly well. Still, this kind of approach NEEDS the drow in his classic evil form - and they were strongly present as such in the episode, or the whole dramatic structure would have collapsed.

Anyway, after the LotR movies came out, every one and single elf was Orlando Bloom firing Sidewinder missiles. There is nothing that can be done, except accept the burden of suffering and soldier on.

Quote from: Sommerjon;612282Really?  Then explain

Never quite understood this.  The game has this element of competition, but you're not supposed to make the bestest character you can to survive as long as possible?

There is no way you can come close to creating the bullshit bonuses Blackhand claims for 1st level characters unless through charop wankery and an incredibly stupid/Monty Haul DM. That's a long fucking way from rolling 3d6 and making the best character you can...

No, I don't think crap game-fic ever "ruins" anything. Years of bad FR novels haven't made gray box 1e FR any less of a good setting for the enterprising DM. Hell, even the Dragonlance setting can make for some decent gaming, if you excise the worst fiction tie-ins.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;612279If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, Drow are probably ruined forever.  Of course, if you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, you probably don't mind that fact.  Or a whole bunch of other crap that makes the Realms unplayable for a host of players...  

:rotfl:

Let's just say, I was glad the Night Below Box Set went with Rockseer Elves instead of Drow.

If that's not a big enough hint, then know that I rooted like hell for Artemis Entreri in every Drizz't book I read in high school.

Quote from: CRKrueger;612095Being a Dark Elf player has been completely and totally destroyed.  As NPCs they can be salvaged if you leave off the lesbian-stripper-ninja-BDSM fetish fuel.

I actually like Drow being fond of mental and physical torture.

I also have always found drow to be cool.

I have no problem with a pc drow if they actually roleplay it well.

I've pretty much put them on the shelf as NPC only.

Yet, I would let you play a wemic, grippli or giff if we were playing Spelljammer.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;612068

I've always enjoyed the Spider-man-esque mask on the box... :cool:

I shocked the hell out of my players in my last Pathfinder campaign, by daring to have Drow turn out to be just Elves with dark skin. No special abilities, like magic resistance or the like. Just elves, with a wicked sense of vengeance.