Quote from: Anselyn on April 12, 2023, 03:46:43 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 11, 2023, 07:52:18 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on April 11, 2023, 07:21:44 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 03:32:33 PM
Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws.

What are they for your race?

Oh, well, I would say organized, industrious, independent, and individualistic.

That sounds like a list of positive traits. At least, I think that you would think that all of those are positive.
So what are the flaws of your race?  Is it hard for one to be self-critical to see the flaws of your race?

Try reading historiography _and_ history?

Greetings!

In the interests of keeping this thread on-topic, Anselyn, I suggest that you create an appropriate thread on History and Politics in Pundit's Political section.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Anselyn on April 12, 2023, 03:46:43 AM
That sounds like a list of positive traits. At least, I think that you would think that all of those are positive.
So what are the flaws of your race?  Is it hard for one to be self-critical to see the flaws of your race?

Of course! And flaws tend to be the flip side of virtues, or virtues taken beyond the admirable to unhealthy extremes. It was only when I attended a seminar about the Sri Lankan government's war with the Tamil Tigers, that I realised that the European drive to perfectionism all too often leads to absolutism. The speaker was anti-government, but he explained that the Buddhist Sri Lankan government saw Chaos/Evil as a necessary part of existence, which meant there was no drive to a 'final solution', ie genocide of the rebel Tamils, which would be the temptation for European cultures engaged in such a war. IMO Whites/Europeans all too often want to "build the Republic of Heaven" by eliminating 'imperfections', such as people who don't fit in to the scheme. How much of this is nature vs nurture I don't know; I do know that both are about equally persistent.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.

This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.

The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 11, 2023, 07:26:50 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.

They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.

Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).

Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).

On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.

In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.

It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).

So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.

You would think those sort of shenanigans would be in violation of SEC and FTC trade regulations. Then again, who watches the watchmen?

But yeah. I was deeply puzzled for a while as to how the hell businesses could stay afloat while chasing phantom demographics and alienating their base. Having ESG grant infusions can forestall any serious collapse, especially while the federal money printer keeps going 'brrrrr'.

Quote from: jhkim on April 11, 2023, 03:58:24 PM
I haven't even seen any complaints about half-elves even from a vocal minority. I have seen a vocal minority complaining about orcs and half-orcs as the "savage primitive" trope -- and about PC ability adjustments as linking race to what job one is good at. So I agree there is a vocal minority like this, but I haven't seen them complaining about half-elves or stout halflings.

So this seems like pro-active reframing at most, though now it seems like they are walking back on Crawford's statement. Last week, they had this brief statement:

QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.

Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH

Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672

That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:

QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS

Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.

If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.

Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.

Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins

So was Crawford talking out of turn if WOTC had to walk back his statement?

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 11, 2023, 07:26:50 PM
They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.

Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).

Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).

On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.

In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.

It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).

So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.

Interesting.  I wasn't aware of this.

Of course companies are not doing this kind of thing because they actually care.  They are doing it because it makes them look good and keeps them from getting attacked by the Woke idiots out there.

Pathetic.

Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.

This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.

The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.

The frustrating thing about this exchange that I literally quoted from the interview that GeekyBugle posted in my previous post, but then GeekyBugle threw it back at me as if it disproved what I was saying. Here is my statement from post #44 - which is before GeekyBugle's above, with new emphasis on the quote:

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.

Tolkien references the connection to Jews in his letters as well as the 1965 interview. This is from a letter to Naomi Mitchison in 1955.

QuoteI think poorly of the broadcast adaptations. Except for a few details I think they are not well done, even granted the script and the legitimacy of the enterprise (which I do not grant). But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the Dwarf (Glóin not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli will look like his father – apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..... I have now got a pestilent doctorate thesis to explore, when I would rather be doing something less useful.....

Source: https://bibliothecaveneficae.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

I think the connections are quite numerous. This article in The Times of Israel goes over some:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/

And it doesn't even mention the letter to Mitchison. Also, if you're not aware of it, look up about Mount Moriah in Jewish tradition - said in the Book of Chronicles as the place where Solomon's Temple is said to have been built.

"Hey, a writer was inspired by stereotypes of a group!"

Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 12:01:59 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:13:04 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.

This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.

The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.

The frustrating thing about this exchange that I literally quoted from the interview that GeekyBugle posted in my previous post, but then GeekyBugle threw it back at me as if it disproved what I was saying. Here is my statement from post #44 - which is before GeekyBugle's above, with new emphasis on the quote:

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.

Tolkien references the connection to Jews in his letters as well as the 1965 interview. This is from a letter to Naomi Mitchison in 1955.

QuoteI think poorly of the broadcast adaptations. Except for a few details I think they are not well done, even granted the script and the legitimacy of the enterprise (which I do not grant). But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the Dwarf (Glóin not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli will look like his father – apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..... I have now got a pestilent doctorate thesis to explore, when I would rather be doing something less useful.....

Source: https://bibliothecaveneficae.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf

I think the connections are quite numerous. This article in The Times of Israel goes over some:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/

And it doesn't even mention the letter to Mitchison. Also, if you're not aware of it, look up about Mount Moriah in Jewish tradition - said in the Book of Chronicles as the place where Solomon's Temple is said to have been built.

Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.

That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.

That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.

For me the point would be if you are trying to find something to complain about, whether its a book, a movie a tv show or something else then you really are just wasting your time worrying about something that doesn't matter.

I totally agree with you.  Who the fuck cares?  If you don't like it then dont read/watch/play whatever it is you dont like.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 01:50:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.

That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.

For me the point would be if you are trying to find something to complain about, whether its a book, a movie a tv show or something else then you really are just wasting your time worrying about something that doesn't matter.

I totally agree with you.  Who the fuck cares?  If you don't like it then dont read/watch/play whatever it is you dont like.

Right. And I agree with that too. I love Tolkien, and one of the things that has bugged me is how a ton of RPGs have thoroughly screwed up the spirit of his stories. This has been part of what was behind my plan about a future Middle Earth game that I was planning. I had a thread on it a few weeks ago:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

For my campaign, I wanted to get away from a lot of the muddled revisions to Middle Earth that have come with later adaptations. Elves aren't just like humans with +1 Dex. They are immortal beings who are magical to their core, who walk on snow and run on a single rope like it was a sturdy bridge. Dwarves aren't beer-swilling rowdies like stereotypical Scottish miners. They are based on Jewish traditions and culture - with fine jewelcraft, scholarly writings, along with an organized martial tradition.

I care about what Tolkien thought when I make my adaptation, because I want it to reflect the intent and spirit rather than superficial similarity. I'm still planning about it, so I might start a new thread about it soon.

Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 02:13:58 PM
Right. And I agree with that too. I love Tolkien, and one of the things that has bugged me is how a ton of RPGs have thoroughly screwed up the spirit of his stories. This has been part of what was behind my plan about a future Middle Earth game that I was planning. I had a thread on it a few weeks ago:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/

For my campaign, I wanted to get away from a lot of the muddled revisions to Middle Earth that have come with later adaptations. Elves aren't just like humans with +1 Dex. They are immortal beings who are magical to their core, who walk on snow and run on a single rope like it was a sturdy bridge. Dwarves aren't beer-swilling rowdies like stereotypical Scottish miners. They are based on Jewish traditions and culture - with fine jewelcraft, scholarly writings, along with an organized martial tradition.

I care about what Tolkien thought when I make my adaptation, because I want it to reflect the intent and spirit rather than superficial similarity. I'm still planning about it, so I might start a new thread about it soon.

Yep, I agree.   Enjoy the work.  People are flawed.  But unless their flaws hurt their actual work (happens rarely) then it doesn't matter.

One thing I haven't seen people talk about (I may have missed it):

I wonder what Gary Gygax would think about what Wizards of the Coast is doing to D&D if he were still alive.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 02:24:47 PM
One thing I haven't seen people talk about (I may have missed it):

I wonder what Gary Gygax would think about what Wizards of the Coast is doing to D&D if he were still alive.

He'd love the money and prestige it has, and absolutely loathe ever other aspect of it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 02:29:53 PM
He'd love the money and prestige it has, and absolutely loathe ever other aspect of it.

I wonder if TSR had done things right and had stuck around and still had D&D I wonder where it would be today.

Maybe that's a great idea for a different thread.