Yea, I was being facetious.

Greetings!

Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.

But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.

DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.

Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.

Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 10, 2023, 10:52:07 AM

It's hard to have consistent standards when they've never had any to begin with. To them it's a feature not a bug, because it makes it easier to shift the goalposts in order to beat conservatives over the head over anything at any time. It also helps to keep their less zealous fellow wokists from wandering too far off the NPC plantation if they are constantly living under threat of losing every social connection they have for having the gall to question even the most trivial detail of the woke narrative.
[/quote]

You are dead on.  Having standards makes it hard from them to bend the knee to whoever the flavor of the week is.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM

Quote from: The Spaniard on April 10, 2023, 09:16:28 AM

Quote from: Omega on April 10, 2023, 06:19:48 AM
Oh wait for the next.

Goblins are really JEWS! This ones going the rounds now.

What?  I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.

Tolkien was explicit in his letters and interviews that he patterned his dwarves on Jewish people. The language Khuzdul is modeled on Hebrew, and he goes over many points of similarity as he discusses them. Tolkien emphasized their fine metalworking and jewelcraft, their ancient script, and portrays them as warriors and archers in line with Jewish tradition.

However, in adaptations of dwarves after Tolkien, they lost that Jewish connection. In later adaptations, they became patterned on Scottish people - specifically Scottish miners and engineers. Dwarves now are portrayed as speaking in a Scottish accent, constantly drink beer, and are associated with fantasy steam age technology. None of that is in Tolkien. (Dwarves drink wine, mead, and beer - but so do hobbits and other races.)  Modern dwarves are stereotypically dirty from mining and gruffly drink beer after, which echoes stereotypes of Scottish coal miners.

I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.

Some people deny any connection of fantasy and real-world themes. I think fantasy always has real-world messages, but literary interpretation isn't science. It's rare for any intended message to be clear. If we didn't have Tolkien's letters and interview, the Jewish connection would be far more contentious.

You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.

But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.

DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.

Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.

Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Along the same lines, Asian cultures absolutely have some of the most interesting ghosts and vengeful spirits in mythology. Chinese vampires are different from vampires western cultures are familiar with. Slavic mythologies and pantheons of gods are very different from those of the Celts. And while I don't know much about African mythology, I seem to remember hearing at least one seriously scary myth that originated there. There are so many different types of boogey men with lots of similarities in the different myths and legends of the world that it's silly to assume any one of them is definitely signs of racism against any one particular group. Whether or not the perception in one culture started out that way, it doesn't mean that's the perception now.

I've never looked at any fictional beings and equated them with a group of real people. Only racists do that. Like the people who threw a huge shitfit over orcs being a stand-in for black people in D&D. Or the dumbasses complaining about how one of the zombie enemies in Pirate Borg is called a Rope Monkey and has dreads. In a game about pirates. Set in the Caribbean. And using a historically accurate term to describe crew members of any skin pigment who climbed ship rigging. We're surrounded by creatively (and morally) bankrupt idiots whose lives are so meaningless that they have to find things to bitch about to prove they somehow matter. They're a bunch of fucking mentally weak losers.

Greetings!

Ahh, geesus. All of the crying over any kind of stereotyping, or let alone *criticism* of different ethnic groups, like the Jews, is just so tiresome and pathetic. "Jews are greedy and money hungry!" Whaa, Whaa, Whaa. Who the fuck cares? Some of them are. That's ok. The Jews can take it. Jews are well aware of their stereotypes and their flaws.

I often wonder why none of the fucking morons ever think about the stereotypes. Yeah, the stereotypes are true. They have been true for CENTURIES. That is why everyone, everywhere, typically have many of the same stereotypes for the Jews. Again, so what? The Jews are good at making money and getting rich and being successful, wherever they happen to be. Egypt, Spain, Russia, Poland, Italy, Germany, Britain, or Persia. Everywhere the Jews go, they become rich and skilled, an educated, and successful. Fucking read some history. 100 AD ONWARDS TO THE PRESENT DAY, everywhere the Jews are found in significant numbers, they succeed. Lawyers, Doctors, *Physicians*, MERCHANTS. Stop crying about it. Suck it down, and fucking learn from the Jews, or just shut the fuck up. The fucking Jews aren't some magical fucking people, perfect, sweet, and without flaw.

They are adaptable, hard working, *locally* unified, and disciplined.

These traits are what Jews have hammered into their kids from birth for a very long time. Why?

Because back in the first Century AD, the Jews got fucking obliterated. Roman emperors Vespasian and Titus had had enough of Jews rebelling, and killing Romans guerilla style. The Roman legions marched, and spent 3 years crushing the Jews everywhere. Then, the Romans crushed Jerusalem. Over 1.5 MILLION Jews were slaughtered. Hundreds of thousands were raped and chained as slaves. Forever. The Temple in Jerusalem was torn down, by hand, by the Romans. The fires were set to turn everything to ash, even so the Romans could get to the gold melting down into the floor stones. Then, a new temple was established, with a statue of Augustus placed. All were forced to pay and bow down to ROME!

The Romans didn't stop with that though. They exiled virtually all of the fucking Jews from Judea and Palestine. Confiscated the Jew's land, animals, everything. The Jews, en masse, were forced into being a vagabond people. This reality made the Jews get real serious--as a people--as families--about survival, and ensuring ongoing prosperity. They couldn't afford to "Do you own thing" nd be free-spirited fucking hippies. So, you can also see how they raised their kids with lots of discipline and focus. All of them, male or female. They had to learn valuable skills that they could take everywhere, and anywhere. They learned that learning and education were key helpers to success, again, everywhere, because the Jews couldn't afford to be lazy, stupid, or frivolous like the natives that surrounded them. In most places, there also wouldn't be anyone interested in helping the Jews, because they were for years also seen as outsiders. Plus, their religion made them weird too. Lots of friction and suspicion, because they were outsiders. So, the Jews had to get on top of things, just to survive. So, they did. And the Jews focused on habits, traits, and work that had the highest return on success, prosperity, and security.

That's why the Jews are typically so successful. It comes from a long history of crushing defeat, slavery, death, and fire. A History of being oppressed and rejected as the fucking weird foreigners, the suspicious outsiders. Whenever there are social problems--who do you think got blamed and targeted first? The fucking Jews. Again, this reality can be seen in all of the regions that have had significant Jewish minority populations, going through CENTURIES. Jews can often tell you about their own stereotypes. How crazy serious their entire families can be. The Jewish mothers! *Laughing* They can be very intense, very serious, and very driven. Wonderful people. That doesn't mean they can't be fucking criticized though, geesus. Just like everyone else. Every people have stereotypes--some good, some bad. Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws. Get fucking real. The people that can't handle these truths are fucking morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 10, 2023, 02:51:35 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.

But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.

DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.

Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.

Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Along the same lines, Asian cultures absolutely have some of the most interesting ghosts and vengeful spirits in mythology. Chinese vampires are different from vampires western cultures are familiar with. Slavic mythologies and pantheons of gods are very different from those of the Celts. And while I don't know much about African mythology, I seem to remember hearing at least one seriously scary myth that originated there. There are so many different types of boogey men with lots of similarities in the different myths and legends of the world that it's silly to assume any one of them is definitely signs of racism against any one particular group. Whether or not the perception in one culture started out that way, it doesn't mean that's the perception now.

I've never looked at any fictional beings and equated them with a group of real people. Only racists do that. Like the people who threw a huge shitfit over orcs being a stand-in for black people in D&D. Or the dumbasses complaining about how one of the zombie enemies in Pirate Borg is called a Rope Monkey and has dreads. In a game about pirates. Set in the Caribbean. And using a historically accurate term to describe crew members of any skin pigment who climbed ship rigging. We're surrounded by creatively (and morally) bankrupt idiots whose lives are so meaningless that they have to find things to bitch about to prove they somehow matter. They're a bunch of fucking mentally weak losers.

Greetings!

Top notch, Wasteland Sniper! Yeah, that's the key thing there, is realizing what absolute degenerate morons these people are.

Pirates? The Carribean? Oh, that place that had lots of African slaves--and also some African pirate crews? But these morons are offended because some monster has Dred locks? Dred Locks is a hair style. It isn't owned by black people.

I hope these game companies make more ethnic characters and monsters, and imagery that violates the morons. Cultural appropriation! That's right. Plunder it all. The strong get to take everything, and the weak stay on their fucking knees, crying. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.

But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.

DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.

Saying they can be anything you want is technically true. In my current campaign, dwarves are a loose parallel for Aymaran or Mochican speakers within the Pre-Columbian Andean highlands. They're highly religious especially in honoring the apus, and skilled in the precision stonework that defines Incan urban architecture. They are a core of the empire, but still ethnically distinct from humans who are parallel to the majority Quechua speakers.

But still, there is a standard way that D&D dwarves are portrayed in D&D books and other D&D-derived media. And that is going to highly influence how dwarves will be in most games.

---

More generally about racism. It seems like both sides are pushing a binary of close to "everything is racist" or "nothing is racist". I find it baffling, and it makes it hard to talk about racism on either side - at least on the Internet.

When I started playing D&D as a kid in the 1970s, I remember going to a friend's houses and hearing grown-ups there complaining about how black people were going to start being allowed into even the private pools like at the country club. The schoolyard chants at my elementary school included "A fight! A fight! A n***er and a white!" along with "Chinese; Japanese; dirty knees; look at these." Racism was extremely blatant at the time. And the kids who all shouted those chants are my generation. As a mixed-race kid, I got a lot of questions of "what are you" and lack of acceptance from either side.

Yet it feels to me that around here, if anyone says that anything in D&D was ever racist, then they are labelled an extremist who is part of the enemy. Given the norms of the 1970s, I find it ridiculous to claim that D&D was always 100% free of racism.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:06:49 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.

But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.

DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.

Saying they can be anything you want is technically true. In my current campaign, dwarves are a loose parallel for Aymaran or Mochican speakers within the Pre-Columbian Andean highlands. They're highly religious especially in honoring the apus, and skilled in the precision stonework that defines Incan urban architecture. They are a core of the empire, but still ethnically distinct from humans who are parallel to the majority Quechua speakers.

But still, there is a standard way that D&D dwarves are portrayed in D&D books and other D&D-derived media. And that is going to highly influence how dwarves will be in most games.

---

More generally about racism. It seems like both sides are pushing a binary of close to "everything is racist" or "nothing is racist". I find it baffling, and it makes it hard to talk about racism on either side - at least on the Internet.

When I started playing D&D as a kid in the 1970s, I remember going to a friend's houses and hearing grown-ups there complaining about how black people were going to start being allowed into even the private pools like at the country club. The schoolyard chants at my elementary school included "A fight! A fight! A n***er and a white!" along with "Chinese; Japanese; dirty knees; look at these." Racism was extremely blatant at the time. And the kids who all shouted those chants are my generation. As a mixed-race kid, I got a lot of questions of "what are you" and lack of acceptance from either side.

Yet it feels to me that around here, if anyone says that anything in D&D was ever racist, then they are labelled an extremist who is part of the enemy. Given the norms of the 1970s, I find it ridiculous to claim that D&D was always 100% free of racism.

I'm sorry you endured that.

Now, can you point to any example of racism in D&D that doesn't require mind reading?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.

You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.

And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:

QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.

You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/

If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.

So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.

And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:

QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews

> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite

Choose one.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.

And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:

QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews

> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite

Choose one.

This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.

There is a huge middle ground.

For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.

Regarding Jewish people --

I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.

So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.

And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:

QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews

> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite

Choose one.

This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.

There is a huge middle ground.

For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.

Regarding Jewish people --

I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.

So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.

Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.

Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 06:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.

And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:

QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.

>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews

> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite

Choose one.

This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.

There is a huge middle ground.

For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.

Regarding Jewish people --

I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.

So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.

Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.

Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?

Greetings!

Totally, GeekyBugle! I love how Libtards often smugly bloviate about how people need to be educated, sophisticated, and understand and embrace *nuance* meanwhile demonstrating constantly how ignorant, uneducated, and entirely incapable of comprehending "Nuance".

After all, it was moron Libtards that started all of these kinds of racist critiques of Tolkien, and following with everything else. So, Tolkien was inspired to embrace some elements of Jewish culture for his depiction of Dwarves. Great. How about Germanic, Norse, or Celtic influences? How much, or how little, is irrelevant. Why does racism *have* to come into it? Why is anyone even thinking about fucking "anti-Semitism"?

What the fuck is wrong with Tolkien using inspiration from the Jews, or the Finns, or the Norse, or the Saxons? Why are all of these Libtards always worried about Jews being fucking offended? Why aren't there anyone screaming about Anti-Finnish messaging in Tolkien's portrayal and depiction of Elves? The Elves' language is heavily, actually, inspired by and partially derived by, the Finnish language. In yet another shocking truth--most of the Libtard morons shrieking about racism an anti-Semitism with Tolkien, in particular--are of course not Jews. It's usually some fat, dog-ugly white feminist woman academic that is involved.

The Libtards constant hatred for white people, Western Civilization, and Christianity, is also seen currently how they seek to mangle and edit so many current and classic books, for words and speech that is somehow "triggering", or "hateful", or "Problematic". The Libtard stupid train just keeps on, promoting racism, hatred, censorship, and its own brand of smug, self-righteous totalitarianism.

Of course, if a person didn't read special notes that Tolkien wrote or discussed, you would never likely recognize anything much about Jews with the Dwarves of Tolkien's books. People need to be brainwashed and "Trained" to see any of this as racism or "probematic". It is all part of the Libtard's indoctrination. Amazing, I was reading and talking about Tolkien for *decades* and never heard anyone mention anything to do with racism or anti-semitism. Until recent years. Now, everything and everyone white is racist, of course.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 06:20:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.

So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.

Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.

Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?

I can't read his mind, but what he said in a 1965 BBC interview was this:

Quote from: JRR TolkienThe dwarves, of course, are quite obviously, couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. There's a tremendous love of the artifact, and of course the immense warlike capacity of the Jews, which we tend to forget nowadays.

Source: https://tolkienbystump.quora.com/Tolkien-s-1965-Interview

He is saying that both dwarves and Jews have a "tremendous love of the artifact" - so love of material items, which is clearly connected to the themes of dwarvish greed. That doesn't mean that he hated Jewish people. He seemed to genuinely have a great admiration for them, and made them the heroes of a sort to his book.

In political debate, there's a push to have people be either saints or demons - but that's not how real people work. I think Tolkien's portrayal of Jewish-coded dwarves is great progress over the Jewish-coded dwarves in Wagner's Ring cycle, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect.