At the D&D "creator summit", Jeremy Crawford revealed that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs will no longer be allowed in D&D, and stated that these sort of mixed race characters are "inherently racist". Here I try to explain why they believe the same thing the Klan does. #dnd5e #dndbeyond #vtt
#dnd #ttrpg
Ryan Long did the video you're thinking of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
These idiots at WOTC are just digging themselves deeper in the hole with this woke BS.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on April 06, 2023, 04:36:28 PM
Ryan Long did the video you're thinking of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
Yes, I just couldn't remember his name. He's great.
A lot of people in the comments rushed in to provide the name for me, which means I can continue to be half-senile with impunity!
If mixing races and thus taking a mix of racial abilities is racist, then it is only a matter of time until racial abilities themselves will be considered racist as well. Look at fixed ability increases... Used to be it was a given, not disputed, that the standard Dwarf was tougher than the standard elf, period. Not anymore so. So why wouldn't they, in time, find the fact that as a Dwarf you are more resistant to poison, racist?
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on April 07, 2023, 08:37:35 AM
If mixing races and thus taking a mix of racial abilities is racist, then it is only a matter of time until racial abilities themselves will be considered racist as well. Look at fixed ability increases... Used to be it was a given, not disputed, that the standard Dwarf was tougher than the standard elf, period. Not anymore so. So why wouldn't they, in time, find the fact that as a Dwarf you are more resistant to poison, racist?
Good question. And if if has been a problem for so long where are they just now getting to "fixing" the issues instead of doing it when they were putting out 5e?
Because the SWJ's got to them and they are bending to them, although the SJW's don't even play D&D
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on April 07, 2023, 08:37:35 AM
If mixing races and thus taking a mix of racial abilities is racist, then it is only a matter of time until racial abilities themselves will be considered racist as well. Look at fixed ability increases... Used to be it was a given, not disputed, that the standard Dwarf was tougher than the standard elf, period. Not anymore so. So why wouldn't they, in time, find the fact that as a Dwarf you are more resistant to poison, racist?
I thought they already believed racial (excuse me, "specie") attributes were racist? At least some are, and maybe some aren't yet? (Which makes no sense.) I know giving males of a race a strength bonus, with an offsetting Dexterity bonus or whatever for a female character, is sexist. I also thought everyone was getting their own version of dark vision because having different eyesight is racist.
I miss my huge tables from Arduin Trilogy, with every crazy possible player character race getting its own range of scores for every attribute.
Seems like WOTC didn't follow Robert Downey Jr's advice.
Never go full retard.
Just when you think they're out of WTF moments, they come up with this beauty. The funny thing is, that mutt Crawford doesn't even realize how racist and condescending he is. Good grief...
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 07, 2023, 01:34:11 PM
Just when you think they're out of WTF moments, they come up with this beauty. The funny thing is, that mutt Crawford doesn't even realize how racist and condescending he is. Good grief...
I can't wait to see what they do next. It's free entertainment from the people at WOTC.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on April 07, 2023, 08:37:35 AM
If mixing races and thus taking a mix of racial abilities is racist, then it is only a matter of time until racial abilities themselves will be considered racist as well. Look at fixed ability increases... Used to be it was a given, not disputed, that the standard Dwarf was tougher than the standard elf, period. Not anymore so. So why wouldn't they, in time, find the fact that as a Dwarf you are more resistant to poison, racist?
I remember seeing some people voice views to that effect (in Twatter, I believe) around the time they announced the D&Done playtest and it came out that they were dropping racial modifiers and changing the word "race" to "species".
It's. NEVER. Good. Enough. ;)
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 01:35:49 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 07, 2023, 01:34:11 PM
Just when you think they're out of WTF moments, they come up with this beauty. The funny thing is, that mutt Crawford doesn't even realize how racist and condescending he is. Good grief...
I can't wait to see what they do next. It's free entertainment from the people at WOTC.
It's like watching them point a loaded .44 right at their foot and pull the trigger. And then do it again, while whining about how awful and racist the fan base is for pointing out their stupidity.
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
Quote from: Festus on April 07, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
The woketards are about 8% of the population, if it was about making money they would cater to the other 92% which means Buxon Wenches in Chainmail Bikinis would make them more money than catering to the perpetually offended who most of the time are broke or end up not buying your product.
Quote from: Festus on April 07, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
The literal furries in the twittersphere would erupt if they can't play their Cat/Sheep human hybrid.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 07, 2023, 04:21:41 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 07, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
The literal furries in the twittersphere would erupt if they can't play their Cat/Sheep human hybrid.
Absolutely. You can't please everyone and offend no one. That they're even trying is why they have chronic foot in mouth disease.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 07, 2023, 03:48:35 PM
It's like watching them point a loaded .44 right at their foot and pull the trigger. And then do it again, while whining about how awful and racist the fan base is for pointing out their stupidity.
Yep you are right about that. Meanwhile we get to sit back, enjoy the show and game with normal people.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 04:21:27 PM
The woketards are about 8% of the population, if it was about making money they would cater to the other 92% which means Buxon Wenches in Chainmail Bikinis would make them more money than catering to the perpetually offended who most of the time are broke or end up not buying your product.
3D printed minis are a very devolved free market, no corporate censorship, and you can check figure popularity to see what buyers want most. One guess. ;D
Greetings!
I hate to break the idea bubble, but there are far more Woketards than 8%. Probably 50% of the population has been deeply and thoroughly corrupted by Marxist, Woke ideas and propaganda. Regardless of whether many of these people are conscious of it, or admit it. The truth is, they are deeply corrupted by Marxism. So, the Woketards are far more powerful and influential than many people want to admit, or even realize themselves.
As for money being the primary motivation--that too, is old thinking. Many of the Woketard corporate types have admitted that they do not care about money or profits. They have proclaimed that the main priority is CHANGING THE CULTURE, and ESTABLISHING THE NARRATIVE.
So, there is no refuge in assuming they are beholden to traditional dynamics of the marketplace, profits, and money. People have to stop comforting themselves with truisms and nice platitudes from days long ago. The entire society is in a death struggle against globalist Marxists. The battle is ideological, spiritual, and political. For now. Nonetheless, it is a death-struggle for the entire survival of American society.
The continued policies of WOTC are not based upon money. It is about strengthening the narrative, boosting the mongrel Woke hordes, and crushing the enemy. Like Saul Alinsky said, "By any means necessary". These Marxist tyrants and change agents are engaged in a struggle, in total war against anyone and everyone in America that opposes them, or resists their Marxist world view. The clowns at WOTC are doing their part to confuse, demoralize, and corrupt the game hobby, and exert and enforce dynamics of control.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 07, 2023, 06:04:24 PM
Greetings!
I hate to break the idea bubble, but there are far more Woketards than 8%. Probably 50% of the population has been deeply and thoroughly corrupted by Marxist, Woke ideas and propaganda. Regardless of whether many of these people are conscious of it, or admit it. The truth is, they are deeply corrupted by Marxism. So, the Woketards are far more powerful and influential than many people want to admit, or even realize themselves.
As for money being the primary motivation--that too, is old thinking. Many of the Woketard corporate types have admitted that they do not care about money or profits. They have proclaimed that the main priority is CHANGING THE CULTURE, and ESTABLISHING THE NARRATIVE.
So, there is no refuge in assuming they are beholden to traditional dynamics of the marketplace, profits, and money. People have to stop comforting themselves with truisms and nice platitudes from days long ago. The entire society is in a death struggle against globalist Marxists. The battle is ideological, spiritual, and political. For now. Nonetheless, it is a death-struggle for the entire survival of American society.
The continued policies of WOTC are not based upon money. It is about strengthening the narrative, boosting the mongrel Woke hordes, and crushing the enemy. Like Saul Alinsky said, "By any means necessary". These Marxist tyrants and change agents are engaged in a struggle, in total war against anyone and everyone in America that opposes them, or resists their Marxist world view. The clowns at WOTC are doing their part to confuse, demoralize, and corrupt the game hobby, and exert and enforce dynamics of control.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Then why is it that the latest woke animated shit from Disney tanked? The last two did, if the woketards are 50% it should have done fine or good.
As for the money, remove the ESG funds and you'll see them crumble into dust. It's WHY those funds exist, to use normal people's savings (without asking them) to prop up corporations that aren't profitable.
As for the corpos? Yes, many of them are ideologically driven, but the stock holders aren't, just wait till the first domino collapses.
Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is propped by Hasbro who in turn is propped by the ESG funds. Which is why they managed to infiltrate the corporations.
Quote from: SHARK on April 07, 2023, 06:04:24 PM
Greetings!
I hate to break the idea bubble, but there are far more Woketards than 8%. Probably 50% of the population has been deeply and thoroughly corrupted by Marxist, Woke ideas and propaganda. Regardless of whether many of these people are conscious of it, or admit it. The truth is, they are deeply corrupted by Marxism. So, the Woketards are far more powerful and influential than many people want to admit, or even realize themselves.
As for money being the primary motivation--that too, is old thinking...
The fact that 50%+ of the population holds that mindset, or at least goes along with it, (on this we agree) is precisely
why the money motivation is still applicable. However the zeitgeist became what it is, shareholders and the people they hire to maximize their profits will chase it. Corporate execs don't have to "not care about money or profits" to pursue this market. They can get accolades for being enlightened and make money too, regardless of their sincerity or lack thereof.
Quote from: SHARK on April 07, 2023, 06:04:24 PM
Greetings!
I hate to break the idea bubble, but there are far more Woketards than 8%. Probably 50% of the population has been deeply and thoroughly corrupted by Marxist, Woke ideas and propaganda. Regardless of whether many of these people are conscious of it, or admit it. The truth is, they are deeply corrupted by Marxism. So, the Woketards are far more powerful and influential than many people want to admit, or even realize themselves.
As for money being the primary motivation--that too, is old thinking. Many of the Woketard corporate types have admitted that they do not care about money or profits. They have proclaimed that the main priority is CHANGING THE CULTURE, and ESTABLISHING THE NARRATIVE.
So, there is no refuge in assuming they are beholden to traditional dynamics of the marketplace, profits, and money. People have to stop comforting themselves with truisms and nice platitudes from days long ago. The entire society is in a death struggle against globalist Marxists. The battle is ideological, spiritual, and political. For now. Nonetheless, it is a death-struggle for the entire survival of American society.
The continued policies of WOTC are not based upon money. It is about strengthening the narrative, boosting the mongrel Woke hordes, and crushing the enemy. Like Saul Alinsky said, "By any means necessary". These Marxist tyrants and change agents are engaged in a struggle, in total war against anyone and everyone in America that opposes them, or resists their Marxist world view. The clowns at WOTC are doing their part to confuse, demoralize, and corrupt the game hobby, and exert and enforce dynamics of control.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 07, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
Take back shit language like "mongrels" or you deserve the Nazi label those woke nuts slap on you. There is a line, buddy, and you just walked across it.
It's nice when the trolls announce themselves.
Quote from: Zelen on April 07, 2023, 10:06:59 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 07, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
Oh dear God, seriously? "Marxists"? "Mongrels"? You sound like a caricature of a 1950's communist conspiracy nut, or an actual Aryan nationalist. Tone it down, Fritzengruber, or save this level of hyperbole for the Stormfront website forums.
Take back shit language like "mongrels" or you deserve the Nazi label those woke nuts slap on you. There is a line, buddy, and you just walked across it.
It's nice when the trolls announce themselves.
Dude must think he's in TBP where such accusations hold some weight/power.
To bring it back to the topic:
No, 50% of the USA population isn't woke, 1/3 say they are in some polls, but ask them what they mean and you'll find it's not the same.
8% of the population is driving the discussion, the proof is that woke entertainment keeps tanking and they created the ESG to prop up the failing corporations, that well is drying.
Furthermore since it can never be good enough they won't quit while they're ahead, they'll keep pushing and pushing with more idiotic things, which drives more and more people away from them, hell even Bill Maher knows this.
The more woke they inject in D&D the sooner it will collapse, how many revisions by the Kultural Komissars are they going to give their books? It doesn't matter because the perpetually offended will (shocker) find something to be offended by.
They change race to species and make it so you can create any sort of mongrel between them... Well, it's biological essentialism to give them ANY modifier because they are a different species. It's a catch 22, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
The only winning move is to give them the finger.
But since Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is ideologically captured they can't, not unless they fire each and everyone of the activists they hired from both GWotK and Hasbro. Even then they would need the testicular fortitude to stand their ground, but they are soy based lifeforms.
I, as a proud Spaniard/Mayan Mongrel, will not bend the knee, my existence isn't "Intrinsically Racist".
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Then why is it that the latest woke animated shit from Disney tanked? The last two did, if the woketards are 50% it should have done fine or good.
I believe the vast majority of these woke folks pirate the bulk of any media content they consume.
Quote from: Zelen on April 07, 2023, 10:06:59 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 07, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
Take back shit language like "mongrels" or you deserve the Nazi label those woke nuts slap on you. There is a line, buddy, and you just walked across it.
It's nice when the trolls announce themselves.
Greetings!
Great job, Zelen! *Salute* Sir!
I suppose that GamerforHire has somehow missed the videos showing the mugshots of Woke fucking ANTIFA members arrested in places like Portland, Oregon. It doesn't matter though, whether these scum are in New York, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Sn Francisco, or Los Angeles, or anywhere else. They all look the same. Piercings everywhere, rainbow coloured hair, tattoos everywhere, and all looking like drugged up scum.
Or fucking *MONGRELS*
Somehow I *deserve* the Nazi label that fucking Woke fucking Commie scum mongrels want to give me? I just "walked across" some line?
Not just a Troll, my friend. GamerforHire sounds kind of delusional to me. Maybe also a bit shrill, and...REEEING. ;D
Yeah, look back again at the mugshots of the dozens and dozens, hundreds, of WOKE ANTIFA members. MONGRELS seems like a very appropriate description, certainly to me. When did "Mongrel" become some kind of "STOP! DON'T TOUCH ME THERE, THAT'S MY NO NO SQUARE!" word? *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Feratu on April 07, 2023, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Then why is it that the latest woke animated shit from Disney tanked? The last two did, if the woketards are 50% it should have done fine or good.
I believe the vast majority of these woke folks pirate the bulk of any media content they consume.
IF they consume it at all, because you can tell they have to furiously google when asked basic shit, hell one told me once that Clark Kent never wore a hat.
Same with D&D, what little they know they grab from ideologically driven youtube channels/podcasts, they don't even know how to use a D%, when they play their "campaigns" last 6 sessions tops.
They pirate the books at best because they don't know the rules inside them (if they have them they haven't read them).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 10:34:07 PM
Quote from: Zelen on April 07, 2023, 10:06:59 PM
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 07, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
Oh dear God, seriously? "Marxists"? "Mongrels"? You sound like a caricature of a 1950's communist conspiracy nut, or an actual Aryan nationalist. Tone it down, Fritzengruber, or save this level of hyperbole for the Stormfront website forums.
Take back shit language like "mongrels" or you deserve the Nazi label those woke nuts slap on you. There is a line, buddy, and you just walked across it.
It's nice when the trolls announce themselves.
Dude must think he's in TBP where such accusations hold some weight/power.
To bring it back to the topic:
No, 50% of the USA population isn't woke, 1/3 say they are in some polls, but ask them what they mean and you'll find it's not the same.
8% of the population is driving the discussion, the proof is that woke entertainment keeps tanking and they created the ESG to prop up the failing corporations, that well is drying.
Furthermore since it can never be good enough they won't quit while they're ahead, they'll keep pushing and pushing with more idiotic things, which drives more and more people away from them, hell even Bill Maher knows this.
The more woke they inject in D&D the sooner it will collapse, how many revisions by the Kultural Komissars are they going to give their books? It doesn't matter because the perpetually offended will (shocker) find something to be offended by.
They change race to species and make it so you can create any sort of mongrel between them... Well, it's biological essentialism to give them ANY modifier because they are a different species. It's a catch 22, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
The only winning move is to give them the finger.
But since Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is ideologically captured they can't, not unless they fire each and everyone of the activists they hired from both GWotK and Hasbro. Even then they would need the testicular fortitude to stand their ground, but they are soy based lifeforms.
I, as a proud Spaniard/Mayan Mongrel, will not bend the knee, my existence isn't "Intrinsically Racist".
Greetings!
Preach it, HERMANO! Some mongrels are good!
It is so pathetic that WOTKKK are so racist that mixed race characters are viewed by them as being "inherently racist". The stupid train just doesn't stop with these morons.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 04:21:27 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 07, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
The woketards are about 8% of the population, if it was about making money they would cater to the other 92% which means Buxon Wenches in Chainmail Bikinis would make them more money than catering to the perpetually offended who most of the time are broke or end up not buying your product.
I worry that the 8% has quietly doubled since the start of the big bad orange man.
But you are dead on. The first company with the balls to do it, that really figures out how to market, it will reap the benefit.
Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 10:50:20 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 04:21:27 PM
Quote from: Festus on April 07, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
If WotC is that afraid of looking racist they should just go the full sword & sorcery route and make every PC a human, period. You don't have to emulate Tolkien to have great fantasy adventures. WotC wants to keep all the traditional fantasy races and still make a game that is interesting, lives up to the "it's your world, do what you want" ethos, appeals to a broad audience, and offends no one.
I don't think it's possible, so to some extent they're fucked.
However, I don't think WotC is pushing a woke agenda so much as being afraid of those who are. If tomorrow Chris Cocks got out of bed and no one cared about DEI anymore but millions were demanding buxom wenches in chainmail bikinis, Hasbro would close a deal on the Red Sonja IP by the end of the week. No matter what they say, assuming they have any guiding principle beyond mo' money is a mistake.
The woketards are about 8% of the population, if it was about making money they would cater to the other 92% which means Buxon Wenches in Chainmail Bikinis would make them more money than catering to the perpetually offended who most of the time are broke or end up not buying your product.
I worry that the 8% has quietly doubled since the start of the big bad orange man.
But you are dead on. The first company with the balls to do it, that really figures out how to market, it will reap the benefit.
Marketing is the key, keep an eye open for when I announce my Pulp Sci-Fi game is ready.
Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 10:50:20 PMI worry that the 8% has quietly doubled since the start of the big bad orange man.
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of this comes down to algorithmic manipulation, media brainwashing, state sponsored disinformation and intellectual laziness from the general public. So it's hard to tell how much of this is true believers vs useful idiots vs plain uninformed apolitical default liberal idiots. But it probably looks a lot bigger than it truly is. We're just getting saturated with it cuz of the internet and what we're getting is skewed due to censorship and tampering with dissenting voices to make it look they're fewer than they truly are, while propping up the useful idiots and "authoritative" sources.
Plus a lot of people believe in run of the mill "progressive" values, cuz most people want to be "tolerant" and are against racism or whatever, and full of guilt cuz schools teach them our society is the product of a racist history since they were kids. So if they don't follow WTF is actually going on they're gonna think that they agree with "social justice", cuz why wouldn't they? I mean, it has the word "justice" right there! Are you against "justice"? What are you, some sort of bigot? And that's as far as they think it.
But ask them wether they're OK with their kids being given life altering drugs and medical treatment without their consent, or if they think kids should be taken to drag shows with men shoving their half naked ass on their face, and they'll probably begin to change their tune real quick. Hell, ask them if they think that mixed race people are racist and see how many of them actually agree with WotKKK. I doubt even 10% of the population believe that, but WotKKK have to say they do, cuz they've been captured by the woke mob, so they have to parrot their contradictory upside down world talking points.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 08, 2023, 01:02:13 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 10:50:20 PMI worry that the 8% has quietly doubled since the start of the big bad orange man.
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of this comes down to algorithmic manipulation, media brainwashing, state sponsored disinformation and intellectual laziness from the general public. So it's hard to tell how much of this is true believers vs useful idiots vs plain uninformed apolitical default liberal idiots. But it probably looks a lot bigger than it truly is. We're just getting saturated with it cuz of the internet and what we're getting is skewed due to censorship and tampering with dissenting voices to make it look they're fewer than they truly are, while propping up the useful idiots and "authoritative" sources.
Plus a lot of people believe in run of the mill "progressive" values, cuz most people want to be "tolerant" and are against racism or whatever, and full of guilt cuz schools teach them our society is the product of a racist history since they were kids. So if they don't follow WTF is actually going on they're gonna think that they agree with "social justice", cuz why wouldn't they? I mean, it has the word "justice" right there! Are you against "justice"? What are you, some sort of bigot? And that's as far as they think it.
But ask them wether they're OK with their kids being given life altering drugs and medical treatment without their consent, or if they think kids should be taken to drag shows with men shoving their half naked ass on their face, and they'll probably begin to change their tune real quick. Hell, ask them if they think that mixed race people are racist and see how many of them actually agree with WotKKK. I doubt even 10% of the population believe that, but WotKKK have to say they do, cuz they've been captured by the woke mob, so they have to parrot their contradictory upside down world talking points.
One of the main issues I've noticed is that the normies don't want to think about or believe that there are people who actively want them dead for any disagreement they might have with those people. And while I find that naivety incredibly frustrating, I also can't exactly be all that surprised. Most people tend to assume that if they find something abhorrent, everybody else does, too, and they will roll their eyes and basically call you hyperbolic if you try to tell them otherwise. If there was one good thing to come out of covid, it's that a lot of parents who would have told you that you're a fucking idiot if you tried to tell them their kids' teachers were grooming them got to see first-hand that that is exactly what was going on. And of course the lefty response is to double down while saying they're not doing exactly what they're doing, which now has people taking a closer look at what is going on in other things. Like their hobbies. There's still an annoyingly large segment of people insisting that pushing back against woke shit in gaming is unnecessary, but I think more people are starting to realize that the whole "slippery slope is a fallacy" thing is complete bullshit, that it is in fact real, and that it's been affecting things (like gaming) for a long time.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on April 07, 2023, 08:37:35 AM
If mixing races and thus taking a mix of racial abilities is racist, then it is only a matter of time until racial abilities themselves will be considered racist as well. Look at fixed ability increases... Used to be it was a given, not disputed, that the standard Dwarf was tougher than the standard elf, period. Not anymore so. So why wouldn't they, in time, find the fact that as a Dwarf you are more resistant to poison, racist?
It's only a matter of time.
These people having been salami slicing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing_tactics) for decades. There's no stopping them because there's too many useful idiots who just passively accept what they're doing and say, "Well, it doesn't affect me directly, so..."
Quote from: GamerforHire on April 07, 2023, 09:58:49 PM
Take back shit language like "mongrels" or you deserve the Nazi label those woke nuts slap on you. There is a line, buddy, and you just walked across it.
I'll just leave this here:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Grand Wizards of the KKKoast....
You just won the Internet, for today
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is propped by Hasbro who in turn is propped by the ESG funds. Which is why they managed to infiltrate the corporations.
This is the best. That's how I am referencing from WOTC going forward. A company who wants to get rid of racism, while casually being racist to everyone.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 09, 2023, 06:11:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is propped by Hasbro who in turn is propped by the ESG funds. Which is why they managed to infiltrate the corporations.
This is the best. That's how I am referencing from WOTC going forward. A company who wants to get rid of racism, while casually being racist to everyone.
(https://i.imgflip.com/7hmfu5.jpg)
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 07, 2023, 01:34:11 PM
Just when you think they're out of WTF moments, they come up with this beauty. The funny thing is, that mutt Crawford doesn't even realize how racist and condescending he is. Good grief...
Oh wait for the next.
Goblins are really JEWS! This ones going the rounds now.
Now to be fair what wotc is currently going to do is make it so theres no "Half" anything as that word is Wacist!
What they plan is that you can say any PC race is mized heritage. But its still a whatever.
So a Half Elf would now be an elf or a human or whatever. A half orc is now an Orc or whatever. And so on. Reducing it to a background note.
Problem is they plan to go through the older books and edit out half-races too.
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 10, 2023, 01:16:44 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 09, 2023, 06:11:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2023, 06:33:28 PM
Grand Wizards of the KKKoast is propped by Hasbro who in turn is propped by the ESG funds. Which is why they managed to infiltrate the corporations.
This is the best. That's how I am referencing from WOTC going forward. A company who wants to get rid of racism, while casually being racist to everyone.
(https://i.imgflip.com/7hmfu5.jpg)
Two things:
1) Great picture
2) I am stealing that picture ;D
Quote from: Omega on April 10, 2023, 06:19:48 AM
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 07, 2023, 01:34:11 PM
Just when you think they're out of WTF moments, they come up with this beauty. The funny thing is, that mutt Crawford doesn't even realize how racist and condescending he is. Good grief...
Oh wait for the next.
Goblins are really JEWS! This ones going the rounds now.
What? I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 10, 2023, 09:16:28 AM
What? I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.
Of course it is. With goalposts being shifted and WOTC being run by total idiots we will always be behind the 8 ball.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 10:16:48 AM
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 10, 2023, 09:16:28 AM
What? I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.
Of course it is. With goalposts being shifted and WOTC being run by total idiots we will always be behind the 8 ball.
It's hard to have consistent standards when they've never had any to begin with. To them it's a feature not a bug, because it makes it easier to shift the goalposts in order to beat conservatives over the head over anything at any time. It also helps to keep their less zealous fellow wokists from wandering too far off the NPC plantation if they are constantly living under threat of losing every social connection they have for having the gall to question even the most trivial detail of the woke narrative.
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 10, 2023, 09:16:28 AM
Quote from: Omega on April 10, 2023, 06:19:48 AM
Oh wait for the next.
Goblins are really JEWS! This ones going the rounds now.
What? I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.
Tolkien was explicit in his letters and interviews that he patterned his dwarves on Jewish people. The language Khuzdul is modeled on Hebrew, and he goes over many points of similarity as he discusses them. Tolkien emphasized their fine metalworking and jewelcraft, their ancient script, and portrays them as warriors and archers in line with Jewish tradition.
However, in adaptations of dwarves after Tolkien, they lost that Jewish connection. In later adaptations, they became patterned on Scottish people - specifically Scottish miners and engineers. Dwarves now are portrayed as speaking in a Scottish accent, constantly drink beer, and are associated with fantasy steam age technology. None of that is in Tolkien. (Dwarves drink wine, mead, and beer - but so do hobbits and other races.) Modern dwarves are stereotypically dirty from mining and gruffly drink beer after, which echoes stereotypes of Scottish coal miners.
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
Some people deny any connection of fantasy and real-world themes. I think fantasy always has real-world messages, but literary interpretation isn't science. It's rare for any intended message to be clear. If we didn't have Tolkien's letters and interview, the Jewish connection would be far more contentious.
Yea, I was being facetious.
Greetings!
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.
But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.
DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.
Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.
Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 10, 2023, 10:52:07 AM
It's hard to have consistent standards when they've never had any to begin with. To them it's a feature not a bug, because it makes it easier to shift the goalposts in order to beat conservatives over the head over anything at any time. It also helps to keep their less zealous fellow wokists from wandering too far off the NPC plantation if they are constantly living under threat of losing every social connection they have for having the gall to question even the most trivial detail of the woke narrative.
[/quote]
You are dead on. Having standards makes it hard from them to bend the knee to whoever the flavor of the week is.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: The Spaniard on April 10, 2023, 09:16:28 AM
Quote from: Omega on April 10, 2023, 06:19:48 AM
Oh wait for the next.
Goblins are really JEWS! This ones going the rounds now.
What? I thought dwarves were jews... this is all so confusing.
Tolkien was explicit in his letters and interviews that he patterned his dwarves on Jewish people. The language Khuzdul is modeled on Hebrew, and he goes over many points of similarity as he discusses them. Tolkien emphasized their fine metalworking and jewelcraft, their ancient script, and portrays them as warriors and archers in line with Jewish tradition.
However, in adaptations of dwarves after Tolkien, they lost that Jewish connection. In later adaptations, they became patterned on Scottish people - specifically Scottish miners and engineers. Dwarves now are portrayed as speaking in a Scottish accent, constantly drink beer, and are associated with fantasy steam age technology. None of that is in Tolkien. (Dwarves drink wine, mead, and beer - but so do hobbits and other races.) Modern dwarves are stereotypically dirty from mining and gruffly drink beer after, which echoes stereotypes of Scottish coal miners.
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
Some people deny any connection of fantasy and real-world themes. I think fantasy always has real-world messages, but literary interpretation isn't science. It's rare for any intended message to be clear. If we didn't have Tolkien's letters and interview, the Jewish connection would be far more contentious.
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Greetings!
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.
But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.
DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.
Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.
Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Along the same lines, Asian cultures absolutely have some of the most interesting ghosts and vengeful spirits in mythology. Chinese vampires are different from vampires western cultures are familiar with. Slavic mythologies and pantheons of gods are very different from those of the Celts. And while I don't know much about African mythology, I seem to remember hearing at least one seriously scary myth that originated there. There are so many different types of boogey men with lots of similarities in the different myths and legends of the world that it's silly to assume any one of them is definitely signs of racism against any one particular group. Whether or not the perception in one culture started out that way, it doesn't mean that's the perception now.
I've never looked at any fictional beings and equated them with a group of real people. Only racists do that. Like the people who threw a huge shitfit over orcs being a stand-in for black people in D&D. Or the dumbasses complaining about how one of the zombie enemies in Pirate Borg is called a Rope Monkey and has dreads. In a game about pirates. Set in the Caribbean. And using a historically accurate term to describe crew members of any skin pigment who climbed ship rigging. We're surrounded by creatively (and morally) bankrupt idiots whose lives are so meaningless that they have to find things to bitch about to prove they somehow matter. They're a bunch of fucking mentally weak losers.
Greetings!
Ahh, geesus. All of the crying over any kind of stereotyping, or let alone *criticism* of different ethnic groups, like the Jews, is just so tiresome and pathetic. "Jews are greedy and money hungry!" Whaa, Whaa, Whaa. Who the fuck cares? Some of them are. That's ok. The Jews can take it. Jews are well aware of their stereotypes and their flaws.
I often wonder why none of the fucking morons ever think about the stereotypes. Yeah, the stereotypes are true. They have been true for CENTURIES. That is why everyone, everywhere, typically have many of the same stereotypes for the Jews. Again, so what? The Jews are good at making money and getting rich and being successful, wherever they happen to be. Egypt, Spain, Russia, Poland, Italy, Germany, Britain, or Persia. Everywhere the Jews go, they become rich and skilled, an educated, and successful. Fucking read some history. 100 AD ONWARDS TO THE PRESENT DAY, everywhere the Jews are found in significant numbers, they succeed. Lawyers, Doctors, *Physicians*, MERCHANTS. Stop crying about it. Suck it down, and fucking learn from the Jews, or just shut the fuck up. The fucking Jews aren't some magical fucking people, perfect, sweet, and without flaw.
They are adaptable, hard working, *locally* unified, and disciplined.
These traits are what Jews have hammered into their kids from birth for a very long time. Why?
Because back in the first Century AD, the Jews got fucking obliterated. Roman emperors Vespasian and Titus had had enough of Jews rebelling, and killing Romans guerilla style. The Roman legions marched, and spent 3 years crushing the Jews everywhere. Then, the Romans crushed Jerusalem. Over 1.5 MILLION Jews were slaughtered. Hundreds of thousands were raped and chained as slaves. Forever. The Temple in Jerusalem was torn down, by hand, by the Romans. The fires were set to turn everything to ash, even so the Romans could get to the gold melting down into the floor stones. Then, a new temple was established, with a statue of Augustus placed. All were forced to pay and bow down to ROME!
The Romans didn't stop with that though. They exiled virtually all of the fucking Jews from Judea and Palestine. Confiscated the Jew's land, animals, everything. The Jews, en masse, were forced into being a vagabond people. This reality made the Jews get real serious--as a people--as families--about survival, and ensuring ongoing prosperity. They couldn't afford to "Do you own thing" nd be free-spirited fucking hippies. So, you can also see how they raised their kids with lots of discipline and focus. All of them, male or female. They had to learn valuable skills that they could take everywhere, and anywhere. They learned that learning and education were key helpers to success, again, everywhere, because the Jews couldn't afford to be lazy, stupid, or frivolous like the natives that surrounded them. In most places, there also wouldn't be anyone interested in helping the Jews, because they were for years also seen as outsiders. Plus, their religion made them weird too. Lots of friction and suspicion, because they were outsiders. So, the Jews had to get on top of things, just to survive. So, they did. And the Jews focused on habits, traits, and work that had the highest return on success, prosperity, and security.
That's why the Jews are typically so successful. It comes from a long history of crushing defeat, slavery, death, and fire. A History of being oppressed and rejected as the fucking weird foreigners, the suspicious outsiders. Whenever there are social problems--who do you think got blamed and targeted first? The fucking Jews. Again, this reality can be seen in all of the regions that have had significant Jewish minority populations, going through CENTURIES. Jews can often tell you about their own stereotypes. How crazy serious their entire families can be. The Jewish mothers! *Laughing* They can be very intense, very serious, and very driven. Wonderful people. That doesn't mean they can't be fucking criticized though, geesus. Just like everyone else. Every people have stereotypes--some good, some bad. Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws. Get fucking real. The people that can't handle these truths are fucking morons.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 10, 2023, 02:51:35 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Greetings!
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.
But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.
DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.
Oh, yeah, and the same can be said for Goblins. Goblins are everywhere in European mythology.
Having said that--Goblins and Dwarves--and Elves for that matter--are primarily European. However, on occasion, such races can be found, often in some bizarre forms, in other cultural mythologies, such as African, Asian, or South American.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Along the same lines, Asian cultures absolutely have some of the most interesting ghosts and vengeful spirits in mythology. Chinese vampires are different from vampires western cultures are familiar with. Slavic mythologies and pantheons of gods are very different from those of the Celts. And while I don't know much about African mythology, I seem to remember hearing at least one seriously scary myth that originated there. There are so many different types of boogey men with lots of similarities in the different myths and legends of the world that it's silly to assume any one of them is definitely signs of racism against any one particular group. Whether or not the perception in one culture started out that way, it doesn't mean that's the perception now.
I've never looked at any fictional beings and equated them with a group of real people. Only racists do that. Like the people who threw a huge shitfit over orcs being a stand-in for black people in D&D. Or the dumbasses complaining about how one of the zombie enemies in Pirate Borg is called a Rope Monkey and has dreads. In a game about pirates. Set in the Caribbean. And using a historically accurate term to describe crew members of any skin pigment who climbed ship rigging. We're surrounded by creatively (and morally) bankrupt idiots whose lives are so meaningless that they have to find things to bitch about to prove they somehow matter. They're a bunch of fucking mentally weak losers.
Greetings!
Top notch, Wasteland Sniper! Yeah, that's the key thing there, is realizing what absolute degenerate morons these people are.
Pirates? The Carribean? Oh, that place that had lots of African slaves--and also some African pirate crews? But these morons are offended because some monster has Dred locks? Dred Locks is a hair style. It isn't owned by black people.
I hope these game companies make more ethnic characters and monsters, and imagery that violates the morons. Cultural appropriation! That's right. Plunder it all. The strong get to take everything, and the weak stay on their fucking knees, crying. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.
But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.
DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.
Saying they can be anything you want is technically true. In my current campaign, dwarves are a loose parallel for Aymaran or Mochican speakers within the Pre-Columbian Andean highlands. They're highly religious especially in honoring the apus, and skilled in the precision stonework that defines Incan urban architecture. They are a core of the empire, but still ethnically distinct from humans who are parallel to the majority Quechua speakers.
But still, there is a standard way that D&D dwarves are portrayed in D&D books and other D&D-derived media. And that is going to highly influence how dwarves will be in most games.
---
More generally about racism. It seems like both sides are pushing a binary of close to "everything is racist" or "nothing is racist". I find it baffling, and it makes it hard to talk about racism on either side - at least on the Internet.
When I started playing D&D as a kid in the 1970s, I remember going to a friend's houses and hearing grown-ups there complaining about how black people were going to start being allowed into even the private pools like at the country club. The schoolyard chants at my elementary school included "A fight! A fight! A n***er and a white!" along with "Chinese; Japanese; dirty knees; look at these." Racism was extremely blatant at the time. And the kids who all shouted those chants are my generation. As a mixed-race kid, I got a lot of questions of "what are you" and lack of acceptance from either side.
Yet it feels to me that around here, if anyone says that anything in D&D was ever racist, then they are labelled an extremist who is part of the enemy. Given the norms of the 1970s, I find it ridiculous to claim that D&D was always 100% free of racism.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:06:49 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 02:19:32 PM
Ahh, yes. I recall in Tolkien's works that he discussed using some Jewish influences for Dwarves. Great.
But all of the whining bitches REEEING about some kind of "RACISM!!!" can just get fucked.
DWARVES can really be anything you want, though their primary expression is European. Yeah, Jews are fine, but they are merely one choice amongst many. Scots, of course are there as well. Dwarves, historically, can be seen in just about every European culture. Scandinavian, Germanic, Irish, Scottish, Russian, Slavic, and more.
Saying they can be anything you want is technically true. In my current campaign, dwarves are a loose parallel for Aymaran or Mochican speakers within the Pre-Columbian Andean highlands. They're highly religious especially in honoring the apus, and skilled in the precision stonework that defines Incan urban architecture. They are a core of the empire, but still ethnically distinct from humans who are parallel to the majority Quechua speakers.
But still, there is a standard way that D&D dwarves are portrayed in D&D books and other D&D-derived media. And that is going to highly influence how dwarves will be in most games.
---
More generally about racism. It seems like both sides are pushing a binary of close to "everything is racist" or "nothing is racist". I find it baffling, and it makes it hard to talk about racism on either side - at least on the Internet.
When I started playing D&D as a kid in the 1970s, I remember going to a friend's houses and hearing grown-ups there complaining about how black people were going to start being allowed into even the private pools like at the country club. The schoolyard chants at my elementary school included "A fight! A fight! A n***er and a white!" along with "Chinese; Japanese; dirty knees; look at these." Racism was extremely blatant at the time. And the kids who all shouted those chants are my generation. As a mixed-race kid, I got a lot of questions of "what are you" and lack of acceptance from either side.
Yet it feels to me that around here, if anyone says that anything in D&D was ever racist, then they are labelled an extremist who is part of the enemy. Given the norms of the 1970s, I find it ridiculous to claim that D&D was always 100% free of racism.
I'm sorry you endured that.
Now, can you point to any example of racism in D&D that doesn't require mind reading?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.
And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to
exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:
QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.
And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:
QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews
> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite
Choose one.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.
And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:
QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews
> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite
Choose one.
This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.
There is a huge middle ground.
For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.
Regarding Jewish people --
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.
So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.
And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:
QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews
> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite
Choose one.
This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.
There is a huge middle ground.
For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.
Regarding Jewish people --
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.
So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.
Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.
Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 06:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 04:20:47 PM
So I say that Tolkien was progressive in portraying Jewish-coded heroes, hated the Nazis, and called Jewish people particularly gifted.
And what you read from that is that I'm accusing Tolkien of anti-semitism, and link to exactly what I fucking said -- that Tolkien called Jewish people "gifted". From your link, Tolkien said:
QuoteBut if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
Yes, and you're also giving credence to the accusations by those who align themselves with Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
>Tolkien Darves are an antisemitic representation of jews
> Tolkien wasn't an antisemite
Choose one.
This is what I mean by an artificial binary. The implication here is that either Tolkien was an anti-semite -- which means that he was a Nazi and wanted all Jews dead. Or Tolkien was not an anti-semite, which means that he was perfect and no one can ever find any fault with his portrayal of and attitude towards Jews.
There is a huge middle ground.
For example, I had an in-law-to-be who was very interested in Native Americans. He would talk about how he felt he had a Native American spirit and was one in a past life. He read a lot about them and expressed admiration for their connection to the land - but as far as I know, never had any friends who were native. I would never say that he was racist against Native Americans, but I also had problems with how he spoke about them.
Regarding Jewish people --
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.
So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.
Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.
Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?
Greetings!
Totally, GeekyBugle! I love how Libtards often smugly bloviate about how people need to be educated, sophisticated, and understand and embrace *nuance* meanwhile demonstrating constantly how ignorant, uneducated, and entirely incapable of comprehending "Nuance".
After all, it was moron Libtards that started all of these kinds of racist critiques of Tolkien, and following with everything else. So, Tolkien was inspired to embrace some elements of Jewish culture for his depiction of Dwarves. Great. How about Germanic, Norse, or Celtic influences? How much, or how little, is irrelevant. Why does racism *have* to come into it? Why is anyone even thinking about fucking "anti-Semitism"?
What the fuck is wrong with Tolkien using inspiration from the Jews, or the Finns, or the Norse, or the Saxons? Why are all of these Libtards always worried about Jews being fucking offended? Why aren't there anyone screaming about Anti-Finnish messaging in Tolkien's portrayal and depiction of Elves? The Elves' language is heavily, actually, inspired by and partially derived by, the Finnish language. In yet another shocking truth--most of the Libtard morons shrieking about racism an anti-Semitism with Tolkien, in particular--are of course not Jews. It's usually some fat, dog-ugly white feminist woman academic that is involved.
The Libtards constant hatred for white people, Western Civilization, and Christianity, is also seen currently how they seek to mangle and edit so many current and classic books, for words and speech that is somehow "triggering", or "hateful", or "Problematic". The Libtard stupid train just keeps on, promoting racism, hatred, censorship, and its own brand of smug, self-righteous totalitarianism.
Of course, if a person didn't read special notes that Tolkien wrote or discussed, you would never likely recognize anything much about Jews with the Dwarves of Tolkien's books. People need to be brainwashed and "Trained" to see any of this as racism or "probematic". It is all part of the Libtard's indoctrination. Amazing, I was reading and talking about Tolkien for *decades* and never heard anyone mention anything to do with racism or anti-semitism. Until recent years. Now, everything and everyone white is racist, of course.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 06:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.
So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.
Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.
Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?
I can't read his mind, but what he said in a 1965 BBC interview was this:
Quote from: JRR TolkienThe dwarves, of course, are quite obviously, couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. There's a tremendous love of the artifact, and of course the immense warlike capacity of the Jews, which we tend to forget nowadays.
Source: https://tolkienbystump.quora.com/Tolkien-s-1965-Interview
He is saying that both dwarves and Jews have a "tremendous love of the artifact" - so love of material items, which is clearly connected to the themes of dwarvish greed. That doesn't mean that he hated Jewish people. He seemed to genuinely have a great admiration for them, and made them the heroes of a sort to his book.
In political debate, there's a push to have people be either saints or demons - but that's not how real people work. I think Tolkien's portrayal of Jewish-coded dwarves is great progress over the Jewish-coded dwarves in Wagner's Ring cycle, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect.
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 09:13:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 06:20:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 05:48:10 PM
I don't think the Jewish people are any more greedy than any other ethnicity. There are lots of Jewish-run charities, and Jewish people have a tradition of hospitality and caring for the poor. Human beings are greedy, so Jewish people can be too. However, portraying Jewish people as inherently greedy is feeding into a false stereotype that comes from historical circumstance. Jewish people were barred from many professions, but given exclusive purview over money-lending. Since they couldn't advance otherwise, they had to advance that way. That doesn't mean that they are innately greedy or innately suited to money. It means they advanced the only way they were allowed to.
So yeah, I have a problem with portrayals of Jewish people as innately greedy. It's not that Jewish people are flawless, but that particular accusation feeds a false stereotype.
Good thing that Tolkien NEVER portrayed Jewish people as greedy then. He portrayed Dwarves as greedy, but Dwarves AREN'T Jews, not even in his writings, sure he took inspiration of some aspects he admired from the Jewish people, doesn't mean ALL aspects of his Dwarves were taken from there.
Can you provide proof to the contrary that doesn't involve reading the mind of a dead man?
I can't read his mind, but what he said in a 1965 BBC interview was this:
Quote from: JRR TolkienThe dwarves, of course, are quite obviously, couldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. There's a tremendous love of the artifact, and of course the immense warlike capacity of the Jews, which we tend to forget nowadays.
Source: https://tolkienbystump.quora.com/Tolkien-s-1965-Interview
He is saying that both dwarves and Jews have a "tremendous love of the artifact" - so love of material items, which is clearly connected to the themes of dwarvish greed. That doesn't mean that he hated Jewish people. He seemed to genuinely have a great admiration for them, and made them the heroes of a sort to his book.
In political debate, there's a push to have people be either saints or demons - but that's not how real people work. I think Tolkien's portrayal of Jewish-coded dwarves is great progress over the Jewish-coded dwarves in Wagner's Ring cycle, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect.
It would work in your favor to know the definition of words:
artifact
noun: artefact; plural noun: artefacts; noun: artifact; plural noun: artifacts
1. an object made by a human being, typically an item of cultural or historical interest.
"gold and silver artifacts"
2. something observed in a scientific investigation or experiment that is not naturally present but occurs as a result of the preparative or investigative procedure.
"widespread tissue infection may be a technical artifact"
So a love of man made things, doesn't mean greed, an anthropologist has a "tremendous love of the artifact" too, would you say that's greed?
The man was a linguist, he knew how to use words, why wouldn't he say greed when he could have?
You keep claiming he was an antisemite without knowing it, which is reading the mind of a dead man.
Care to try again without pretending you can read his mind?
Humans ARE very complicated, but not having a "Native American" friend doesn't prove racism. Especially for a man who as you stated ADMIRED them and their culture.
You can't think Jews inferior (like antisemites do) while admiring them for their ingenuity and hard work, like Tolkien did.
> "You hate brown people!"
> How can I hate them when I married one?
> "It's not a binary thing!"
Yes, Jhkim, it is a binary thing, you're either a racist or you're not, and Tolkien wasn't until you can provide proof to the contrary.
Same with D&D, can you prove your claim that there must have been some racism in it because of what you went thru as a child?
Take your time, I'll wait (not holding my breath tho)
Greetings!
GeekyBugle, can you imagine getting together with Tolkien for dinner, and smoking a pipe, and doing some kind of hours-long Q&A over philosophy, writing, language, and his books?
I'm always in joyful, academic awe of Tolkien. Professor Tolkien was an expert in Medieval studies, Anglo-Saxon culture, Norse culture, and Baltic studies! Just mind blowing the depth of his expertise and academic knowledge. As I recall, he was also fluent in Old Saxon, and Finnish languages, besides having extensive knowledge of Germanic languages and of course, Latin, too. Languages, mythology, history, religion, cultural studies, his academic mastery was vast. Furthermore, to top that off, he was also skilled in more archaic literature, songs, and poetry, too!
Absolutely brilliant! A world-class scholar, a man of honour and integrity, a Christian, and gentleman of kindness, generosity, and amazing creativity. What an outstanding occasion that would be!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 10:07:53 PM
Greetings!
GeekyBugle, can you imagine getting together with Tolkien for dinner, and smoking a pipe, and doing some kind of hours-long Q&A over philosophy, writing, language, and his books?
I'm always in joyful, academic awe of Tolkien. Professor Tolkien was an expert in Medieval studies, Anglo-Saxon culture, Norse culture, and Baltic studies! Just mind blowing the depth of his expertise and academic knowledge. As I recall, he was also fluent in Old Saxon, and Finnish languages, besides having extensive knowledge of Germanic languages and of course, Latin, too. Languages, mythology, history, religion, cultural studies, his academic mastery was vast. Furthermore, to top that off, he was also skilled in more archaic literature, songs, and poetry, too!
Absolutely brilliant! A world-class scholar, a man of honour and integrity, a Christian, and gentleman of kindness, generosity, and amazing creativity. What an outstanding occasion that would be!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm not sure I would be able to break out of fanboy mode long enough to ask him anything.
But DUDE! That would be an evening to remember! Life changing I bet.
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.
Will it take them losing a lot of money for them to get it that they went down the wrong road. Or even if that happens will they ever figure it out.
I don't know why they went the stupidity route.
Now that I am more familiar with the OSR I don't have to give WOTC a dime anymore. And that makes e happy.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.
I haven't even seen any complaints about half-elves even from a vocal minority. I have seen a vocal minority complaining about orcs and half-orcs as the "savage primitive" trope -- and about PC ability adjustments as linking race to what job one is good at. So I agree there is a vocal minority like this, but I haven't seen them complaining about half-elves or stout halflings.
So this seems like pro-active reframing at most, though now it seems like they are walking back on Crawford's statement. Last week, they had this brief statement:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
I don't understand the need to get one's panties in a twist over racial overtones in older works, whether it's Tolkien or REH. But I also don't understand the desire to mythologize authors as completely free of the prevailing prejudices of their times.
Some of Tolkien's borrowings or similarities to Hebrew prayer are cringeworthy.
Baruk khazad! Khazad ai-menu! - Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!
Baruch atah Adonai, Eilohenu - We praise you, Eternal God
Did Tolkien mean that as racist? Of course not. Is that - at the very least - awkwardly close to cultural appropriation by 21st century standards. You bet your sweet bippy. Does it matter? NO. Because the fucking text was written over 80 years ago, not yesterday.
No need to be offended by it. Also no need to defend Tolkien's honor. He was a man of his time, and supremely talented. That is all.
Quote from: Festus on April 11, 2023, 05:41:54 PM
I don't understand the need to get one's panties in a twist over racial overtones in older works, whether it's Tolkien or REH. But I also don't understand the desire to mythologize authors as completely free of the prevailing prejudices of their times.
Some of Tolkien's borrowings or similarities to Hebrew prayer are cringeworthy.
Baruk khazad! Khazad ai-menu! - Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!
Baruch atah Adonai, Eilohenu - We praise you, Eternal God
Did Tolkien mean that as racist? Of course not. Is that - at the very least - awkwardly close to cultural appropriation by 21st century standards. You bet your sweet bippy. Does it matter? NO. Because the fucking text was written over 80 years ago, not yesterday.
No need to be offended by it. Also no need to defend Tolkien's honor. He was a man of his time, and supremely talented. That is all.
That doesn't exist, what's more, we used to call it Cultural Appreciation, as in appreciating a culture not your own. Can't be allowed anymore, the enlightened SJWs have decreed that Culture = Race and each race should stick to their own, except Whites, those have no culture.
Taking good stuff from other cultures is a good thing.
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 03:32:33 PM
Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws.
What are they for your race?
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.
They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.
Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).
Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).
On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.
In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.
It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).
So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.
Quote from: Anselyn on April 11, 2023, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 03:32:33 PM
Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws.
What are they for your race?
Greetings!
Oh, well, I would say organized, industrious, independent, and individualistic.
Read some books on history, every people has generalized traits, values, flaws, and so forth.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Festus on April 11, 2023, 05:41:54 PM
I don't understand the need to get one's panties in a twist over racial overtones in older works, whether it's Tolkien or REH. But I also don't understand the desire to mythologize authors as completely free of the prevailing prejudices of their times.
Some of Tolkien's borrowings or similarities to Hebrew prayer are cringeworthy.
Baruk khazad! Khazad ai-menu! - Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!
Baruch atah Adonai, Eilohenu - We praise you, Eternal God
Did Tolkien mean that as racist? Of course not. Is that - at the very least - awkwardly close to cultural appropriation by 21st century standards. You bet your sweet bippy. Does it matter? NO. Because the fucking text was written over 80 years ago, not yesterday.
No need to be offended by it. Also no need to defend Tolkien's honor. He was a man of his time, and supremely talented. That is all.
I agree. To be clear - I greatly admire Tolkien as a writer and a person. I'm not offended by anything he said. As I said, I think he was quite progressive for his time. I thought the 1965 interview I linked earlier had a lot of fascinating stuff. I admire Robert E. Howard as well, and I'd love to talk with him.
But they were still just human people, not flawless angels. There could be things I disagree with them about.
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 07:29:13 PM
Of course, if a person didn't read special notes that Tolkien wrote or discussed, you would never likely recognize anything much about Jews with the Dwarves of Tolkien's books. People need to be brainwashed and "Trained" to see any of this as racism or "probematic". It is all part of the Libtard's indoctrination. Amazing, I was reading and talking about Tolkien for *decades* and never heard anyone mention anything to do with racism or anti-semitism. Until recent years. Now, everything and everyone white is racist, of course.
This makes no sense. You claim that it requires brainwashing to see parallels between Jews and Dwarves in Tolkien's books. But it is Tolkien himself who in his own words made it clear, and he said that he intentionally made the dwarven language based on Hebrew, and that there were many other similarities. Do you think Tolkien was brainwashed by wokists?
I think one thing that makes the parallel less clear is that Tolkien started writing in the 1930s, prior to the revelations about the Nazis and the Holocaust. For those of us who grew up after WWII, our picture of Jewish people was radically changed by that. So it's sometimes hard to recognize attitudes about Jewish people from earlier times. I was the same way. I didn't pick up on the Jewish parallels among dwarves until I read about the letters and interviews I think in the early 2000s.
I think it is instructive to look at Wagner's Ring of the Niebelung and its dwarves Alberich and Mime -- who were often coded as Jewish in early 1900s productions. Tolkien's dwarves were heroic and positive compared to the villainous dwarves of Wagner. There are many points of similarity with Wagner, but I think Tolkien was trying to reinvent and readapt the same source material as Wagner. As part of that, along with many other differences, he created a more positive picture of Jewish-like figures.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 11, 2023, 07:26:50 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.
They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.
Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).
Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).
On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.
In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.
It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).
So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.
Greetings!
Yep, Chris. WOTC doesn't need their traditional fans. WOTC clearly wants to cultivate a new kind of audience. Oh well. WOTC can drown in napalm. My campaigns will still have all kinds of mixed race characters,--including HALF ELVES and HALF ORCS whether WOTC or their new Woke fanbase likes it or not.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on April 11, 2023, 08:15:30 PM
I didn't pick up on the Jewish parallels among dwarves until I read about the letters and interviews I think in the early 2000s.
I didn't pick up on the Jewish parallels when I first read Tolkien in junior high, or a second, third, fourth time in high school and college. But I've been married to a Jewish woman for 36 years and after learning a bit of Hebrew and a fair number of the prayers, the linguistic parallels became obvious. And there's nothing wrong with being inspired by Hebrew sounds and syntax, especially given Tolkien was a scholarly linguist himself. But lifting
prayers is iffy IMO. Doesn't keep me from loving his work.
I haven't read the letters you're referring to but they sound interesting.
Howard and Lovecraft were straight up racists. From what I've read, Wagner was as well. Not unusual for men of their time. Again, doesn't keep me from loving their work.
Quote from: SHARK on April 11, 2023, 07:52:18 PM
Quote from: Anselyn on April 11, 2023, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 03:32:33 PM
Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws.
What are they for your race?
Oh, well, I would say organized, industrious, independent, and individualistic.
That sounds like a list of positive traits. At least, I think that you would think that all of those are positive.
So what are the flaws of your race? Is it hard for one to be self-critical to see the flaws of your race?
Try reading historiography _and_ history?
Quote from: Anselyn on April 12, 2023, 03:46:43 AM
Quote from: SHARK on April 11, 2023, 07:52:18 PM
Quote from: Anselyn on April 11, 2023, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 10, 2023, 03:32:33 PM
Every race of people have generalized traits and values and flaws.
What are they for your race?
Oh, well, I would say organized, industrious, independent, and individualistic.
That sounds like a list of positive traits. At least, I think that you would think that all of those are positive.
So what are the flaws of your race? Is it hard for one to be self-critical to see the flaws of your race?
Try reading historiography _and_ history?
Greetings!
In the interests of keeping this thread on-topic, Anselyn, I suggest that you create an appropriate thread on History and Politics in Pundit's Political section.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Anselyn on April 12, 2023, 03:46:43 AM
That sounds like a list of positive traits. At least, I think that you would think that all of those are positive.
So what are the flaws of your race? Is it hard for one to be self-critical to see the flaws of your race?
Of course! And flaws tend to be the flip side of virtues, or virtues taken beyond the admirable to unhealthy extremes. It was only when I attended a seminar about the Sri Lankan government's war with the Tamil Tigers, that I realised that the European drive to perfectionism all too often leads to absolutism. The speaker was anti-government, but he explained that the Buddhist Sri Lankan government saw Chaos/Evil as a necessary part of existence, which meant there was no drive to a 'final solution', ie genocide of the rebel Tamils, which would be the temptation for European cultures engaged in such a war. IMO Whites/Europeans all too often want to "build the Republic of Heaven" by eliminating 'imperfections', such as people who don't fit in to the scheme. How much of this is nature vs nurture I don't know; I do know that both are about equally persistent.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.
This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.
The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 11, 2023, 07:26:50 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 02:01:29 PM
I am still wondering why Wizards is listening to the vocal minority and why alienating the people who actually buy their products is a good idea.
They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.
Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).
Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).
On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.
In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.
It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).
So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.
You would think those sort of shenanigans would be in violation of SEC and FTC trade regulations. Then again, who watches the watchmen?
But yeah. I was deeply puzzled for a while as to how the hell businesses could stay afloat while chasing phantom demographics and alienating their base. Having ESG grant infusions can forestall any serious collapse, especially while the federal money printer keeps going 'brrrrr'.
Quote from: jhkim on April 11, 2023, 03:58:24 PM
I haven't even seen any complaints about half-elves even from a vocal minority. I have seen a vocal minority complaining about orcs and half-orcs as the "savage primitive" trope -- and about PC ability adjustments as linking race to what job one is good at. So I agree there is a vocal minority like this, but I haven't seen them complaining about half-elves or stout halflings.
So this seems like pro-active reframing at most, though now it seems like they are walking back on Crawford's statement. Last week, they had this brief statement:
QuoteOptions for creating characters descended from more than one species are not being removed from Dungeons & Dragons.
Proposed adjustments to character origins have been open to the community since August 2022 and will be revised further: http://spr.ly/6019OyEdH
Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/DnDBeyond/status/1644119263286812672
That links to the D&DOne documents from last year, which has this sidebar:
QuoteCHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you'd like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options' Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/character-origins
So was Crawford talking out of turn if WOTC had to walk back his statement?
Quote from: Chris24601 on April 11, 2023, 07:26:50 PM
They're not listening to them, they're listening to the same investment firms (Blackrock, Vanguard, State Street, etc.) who require ESG compliance to receive the working capital Hasbro needs to remain solvent. The same ESG that caused a 70% revenue drop at Budweiser over their Tranny Fluid marketing decision... yet they aren't backing down because ESG funds will cover the loss.
Someone leakes some of the evaluation criteria and corps get half their scoring under that criteria (50 of 100 points) for marketing to the "marginalized" and LGBT+ communities (and corps can be docked up to 25 points on a 100 point scale for offering any support to anyone opposed to the woke agenda, with support for or marketing to Christian organizations given as an example of what could dock you points).
Fail to comply and the big boys pull their money and initiate a run on your corporation's stocks (basically crashing its value because that's what happens when people see 15-25% of a corporation's stock getting sold off en masse).
On the other hand if you comply, the big boys will continue throwing other people's money (all the people whose pensions and investments are tied up in those big investment corps without their even knowing it) into your company to keep you afloat despite your losing money from paying customers.
In short, Hasbro/WotC doesn't need it's traditional customers. It just needs to keep the big boys happy. That means going hard woke so the ESG money will flow in to keep them from going broke.
It's absolutely as stupid as it sounds and it relies mostly on these megabanks being "too big to fail" (read as 'own enough politicians to get them to pass legislation to make the taxpayers pay for their failures') so they'll probably keep getting away with it until the bottom falls out (at which point they think they'll be able to escape to their private islands ahead of the screaming masses).
So that's why WotKKK expects to get away with all the Woke garbage they're shoveling into D&D.
Interesting. I wasn't aware of this.
Of course companies are not doing this kind of thing because they actually care. They are doing it because it makes them look good and keeps them from getting attacked by the Woke idiots out there.
Pathetic.
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.
This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.
The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.
The frustrating thing about this exchange that I literally quoted from the interview that GeekyBugle posted in my previous post, but then GeekyBugle threw it back at me as if it disproved what I was saying. Here is my statement from post #44 - which is before GeekyBugle's above, with new emphasis on the quote:
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
Tolkien references the connection to Jews in his letters as well as the 1965 interview. This is from a letter to Naomi Mitchison in 1955.
QuoteI think poorly of the broadcast adaptations. Except for a few details I think they are not well done, even granted the script and the legitimacy of the enterprise (which I do not grant). But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the Dwarf (Glóin not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli will look like his father – apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..... I have now got a pestilent doctorate thesis to explore, when I would rather be doing something less useful.....
Source: https://bibliothecaveneficae.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
I think the connections are quite numerous. This article in The Times of Israel goes over some:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/
And it doesn't even mention the letter to Mitchison. Also, if you're not aware of it, look up about Mount Moriah in Jewish tradition - said in the Book of Chronicles as the place where Solomon's Temple is said to have been built.
"Hey, a writer was inspired by stereotypes of a group!"
(https://media.tenor.co/images/a2d433e335fa220588a3cf4043aa0b6d/raw)
Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2023, 06:13:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 02:50:42 PM
You'll excuse me if I don't take seriously ANY accusation of anti-semitism from the people who happily associate with the likes of Louis Farrakhan, Hamas, etc.
https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/ (https://lithub.com/on-the-time-j-r-r-tolkien-refused-to-work-with-nazi-leaning-publishers/)
If Tolkien was an anti-semite he was doing a really poor job of it.
They always dredge up some "proof" to back their insane claims. Looking at the Tolkein dwarves there is nothing jewish about them.
This whole "Goblins are really Jews!" is a new one and odds are its another 4chan fakery like OK being racist.
The woke lie and even when they trot out some truth, they still lie.
The frustrating thing about this exchange that I literally quoted from the interview that GeekyBugle posted in my previous post, but then GeekyBugle threw it back at me as if it disproved what I was saying. Here is my statement from post #44 - which is before GeekyBugle's above, with new emphasis on the quote:
Quote from: jhkim on April 10, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
I think Tolkien's portrayal of dwarves was progressive for its time, especially given the extreme anti-semitism that was rampant in the 1930s when The Hobbit was published. Tolkien hated the Nazis and referred to Jewish people as particularly gifted. His dwarves were heroic, after all. Still, the themes of dwarvish greed for riches would be awkward in modern portrayals if associated with Jews.
Tolkien references the connection to Jews in his letters as well as the 1965 interview. This is from a letter to Naomi Mitchison in 1955.
QuoteI think poorly of the broadcast adaptations. Except for a few details I think they are not well done, even granted the script and the legitimacy of the enterprise (which I do not grant). But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the Dwarf (Glóin not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli will look like his father – apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..... I have now got a pestilent doctorate thesis to explore, when I would rather be doing something less useful.....
Source: https://bibliothecaveneficae.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf
I think the connections are quite numerous. This article in The Times of Israel goes over some:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/
And it doesn't even mention the letter to Mitchison. Also, if you're not aware of it, look up about Mount Moriah in Jewish tradition - said in the Book of Chronicles as the place where Solomon's Temple is said to have been built.
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.
That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?
Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of
admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.
That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?
Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.
For me the point would be if you are trying to find something to complain about, whether its a book, a movie a tv show or something else then you really are just wasting your time worrying about something that doesn't matter.
I totally agree with you. Who the fuck cares? If you don't like it then dont read/watch/play whatever it is you dont like.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 01:50:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.
That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?
Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.
For me the point would be if you are trying to find something to complain about, whether its a book, a movie a tv show or something else then you really are just wasting your time worrying about something that doesn't matter.
I totally agree with you. Who the fuck cares? If you don't like it then dont read/watch/play whatever it is you dont like.
Right. And I agree with that too. I love Tolkien, and one of the things that has bugged me is how a ton of RPGs have thoroughly screwed up the spirit of his stories. This has been part of what was behind my plan about a future Middle Earth game that I was planning. I had a thread on it a few weeks ago:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/
For my campaign, I wanted to get away from a lot of the muddled revisions to Middle Earth that have come with later adaptations. Elves aren't just like humans with +1 Dex. They are immortal beings who are magical to their core, who walk on snow and run on a single rope like it was a sturdy bridge. Dwarves aren't beer-swilling rowdies like stereotypical Scottish miners. They are based on Jewish traditions and culture - with fine jewelcraft, scholarly writings, along with an organized martial tradition.
I care about what Tolkien thought when I make my adaptation, because I want it to reflect the intent and spirit rather than superficial similarity. I'm still planning about it, so I might start a new thread about it soon.
Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 02:13:58 PM
Right. And I agree with that too. I love Tolkien, and one of the things that has bugged me is how a ton of RPGs have thoroughly screwed up the spirit of his stories. This has been part of what was behind my plan about a future Middle Earth game that I was planning. I had a thread on it a few weeks ago:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/
For my campaign, I wanted to get away from a lot of the muddled revisions to Middle Earth that have come with later adaptations. Elves aren't just like humans with +1 Dex. They are immortal beings who are magical to their core, who walk on snow and run on a single rope like it was a sturdy bridge. Dwarves aren't beer-swilling rowdies like stereotypical Scottish miners. They are based on Jewish traditions and culture - with fine jewelcraft, scholarly writings, along with an organized martial tradition.
I care about what Tolkien thought when I make my adaptation, because I want it to reflect the intent and spirit rather than superficial similarity. I'm still planning about it, so I might start a new thread about it soon.
Yep, I agree. Enjoy the work. People are flawed. But unless their flaws hurt their actual work (happens rarely) then it doesn't matter.
One thing I haven't seen people talk about (I may have missed it):
I wonder what Gary Gygax would think about what Wizards of the Coast is doing to D&D if he were still alive.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 02:24:47 PM
One thing I haven't seen people talk about (I may have missed it):
I wonder what Gary Gygax would think about what Wizards of the Coast is doing to D&D if he were still alive.
He'd love the money and prestige it has, and absolutely loathe ever other aspect of it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 02:29:53 PM
He'd love the money and prestige it has, and absolutely loathe ever other aspect of it.
I wonder if TSR had done things right and had stuck around and still had D&D I wonder where it would be today.
Maybe that's a great idea for a different thread.
Quote from: jhkim on April 12, 2023, 02:13:58 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 01:50:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:43:11 PM
Nope, threw it at you to prove there's ZERO anti-semitism in Tolkien's works.
That he drew inspiration from different sources is a known fact and also WHO THE FUCK CARES?
Only leftards trying to find the proof the man was an anti-semite or that he committed the crime of admiring the Jewish people Cultural Appropriation.
For me the point would be if you are trying to find something to complain about, whether its a book, a movie a tv show or something else then you really are just wasting your time worrying about something that doesn't matter.
I totally agree with you. Who the fuck cares? If you don't like it then dont read/watch/play whatever it is you dont like.
Right. And I agree with that too. I love Tolkien, and one of the things that has bugged me is how a ton of RPGs have thoroughly screwed up the spirit of his stories. This has been part of what was behind my plan about a future Middle Earth game that I was planning. I had a thread on it a few weeks ago:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/
For my campaign, I wanted to get away from a lot of the muddled revisions to Middle Earth that have come with later adaptations. Elves aren't just like humans with +1 Dex. They are immortal beings who are magical to their core, who walk on snow and run on a single rope like it was a sturdy bridge. Dwarves aren't beer-swilling rowdies like stereotypical Scottish miners. They are based on Jewish traditions and culture - with fine jewelcraft, scholarly writings, along with an organized martial tradition.
I care about what Tolkien thought when I make my adaptation, because I want it to reflect the intent and spirit rather than superficial similarity. I'm still planning about it, so I might start a new thread about it soon.
Do share your world building notes and any changes you do to the system (what system are you planing to use? MERPS?).
I'm really interested in seeing how you implement such things, IME tho we can't really grasp alien minds like those of Elves, Dwarves, etc. which is why you always end up with people playing humans in rubber suits with some stuff turned to 13 or absent:
Vulkans are just humans with funny ears and eyebrows that are utterly autistic.
Quote from: GhostNinja on April 12, 2023, 03:07:28 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 02:29:53 PM
He'd love the money and prestige it has, and absolutely loathe ever other aspect of it.
I wonder if TSR had done things right and had stuck around and still had D&D I wonder where it would be today.
There would be no OGL and no major 3rd party D&D products - no Kobold Press for example. Anybody making a clone or something "too close" to D&D would get sued. He was extremely jealous and protective of his IP. You wouldn't be able to play D&D unless you were playing *his* D&D. And because he loved the money, that would mean whatever D&D "official" version TSR was currently selling. Anything else you'd have to buy used on the secondary market, and he'd make that as hard to get as he could.
This would be a boon to alternate non-D&D systems. The late 80s and 90s were a hey day for GURPS, WoD, Hero, Iron Crown et al.
In spite of their recent attempt to take it back, WotC's decision to go "open source" (not just the OGL, but also the abandonment of litigation as a business strategy) 20 years ago was a huge boon to *D&D* - every edition, every 3rd party publisher.
Gygax and Arneson created a whole new hobby. But they weren't great stewards of that hobby. Gygax losing TSR and then TSR going bankrupt were probably a good thing for the hobby overall.
Quote from: Festus on April 12, 2023, 03:34:08 PM
There would be no OGL and no major 3rd party D&D products - no Kobold Press for example. Anybody making a clone or something "too close" to D&D would get sued. He was extremely jealous and protective of his IP. You wouldn't be able to play D&D unless you were playing *his* D&D. And because he loved the money, that would mean whatever D&D "official" version TSR was currently selling. Anything else you'd have to buy used on the secondary market, and he'd make that as hard to get as he could.
This would be a boon to alternate non-D&D systems. The late 80s and 90s were a hey day for GURPS, WoD, Hero, Iron Crown et al.
In spite of their recent attempt to take it back, WotC's decision to go "open source" (not just the OGL, but also the abandonment of litigation as a business strategy) 20 years ago was a huge boon to *D&D* - every edition, every 3rd party publisher.
Gygax and Arneson created a whole new hobby. But they weren't great stewards of that hobby. Gygax losing TSR and then TSR going bankrupt were probably a good thing for the hobby overall.
You are probably right about this. Good insight.
Quote from: Festus on April 12, 2023, 03:34:08 PMGygax and Arneson created a whole new hobby. But they weren't great stewards of that hobby. Gygax losing TSR and then TSR going bankrupt were probably a good thing for the hobby overall.
There's a cycle with most things.
Creative people create something, and treat it with love and care, but it goes bankrupt/struggles because they aren't business people. Business people take over, and sooner or later tank and destroy the thing, because they have no love or care for it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 12, 2023, 06:41:51 PM
There's a cycle with most things.
Creative people create something, and treat it with love and care, but it goes bankrupt/struggles because they aren't business people. Business people take over, and sooner or later tank and destroy the thing, because they have no love or care for it.
Sadly that is what happened to TSR and why it is no longer around (the original). I wont talk about the new TSR.
QuoteSome of Tolkien's borrowings or similarities to Hebrew prayer are cringeworthy.
Baruk khazad! Khazad ai-menu! - Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!
Baruch atah Adonai, Eilohenu - We praise you, Eternal God
Similarity to Semitic language is done on purpose.
Considering how Tolkien was careful to remove any direct link to abrahamic religions from his books (as they are meant to be revelead in far future of his Arda, and he didn't want to make any dubious copy cat) I'd rather assume that simmilarity between this prayer and dwarven warcry is accidental, born from simmilarity of sound. I find it very dubious that he would directly borrow prayer.
Quote from: Wrath of God on April 18, 2023, 11:42:47 AM
QuoteSome of Tolkien's borrowings or similarities to Hebrew prayer are cringeworthy.
Baruk khazad! Khazad ai-menu! - Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!
Baruch atah Adonai, Eilohenu - We praise you, Eternal God
Similarity to Semitic language is done on purpose.
Considering how Tolkien was careful to remove any direct link to abrahamic religions from his books (as they are meant to be revelead in far future of his Arda, and he didn't want to make any dubious copy cat) I'd rather assume that simmilarity between this prayer and dwarven warcry is accidental, born from simmilarity of sound. I find it very dubious that he would directly borrow prayer.
Wouldn't be the first time someone borrowed a bit from Hebrew. Frank Herbert's Dune features the 'kwisatz hadarach', the 'shortening of the way', which was a transliteration of a Hebrew term.
What was funny was that Dune's term referred to a person who could help humanity make the next jump in evolution -- a figurative 'shortening of the way'. But the original Hebrew refers to the strange ability some rabbis had to cross great distances in short or no time at all, a literal 'shortening of the way'.
When I learned this I immediately contacted a friend of mine who is an Orthodox Jew and complained he'd been holding out on us with tales of teleporting rabbis. :D