Looks like analysts figure only ~30% chance there'll be a spinoff. The current market conditions are unfavorable.

With the shift of the WOTC president to HAS CEO, I think there is recognition of the failed attempts to replicate WOTC competitive advantage in the other IP.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 19, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
From reading the financials in the report, it looks like Hasbro has been using the profits from WotC (MtG specifically) to fund development/defray the expenses of less profitable Hasbro lines instead of allowing WotC to reinvest the profits into either growing the WotC brand or handing them out to investors (the latter being the REAL issue).

Spinning off WotC would allow WotC to give more profits to the investors (while still reinvesting to grow WotC) and force Hasbro proper to actually work at making its other divisions more profitable since they won't be able to use WotC profits to keep them afloat.

Thanks for that reader's digest version!

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 19, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
From reading the financials in the report, it looks like Hasbro has been using the profits from WotC (MtG specifically) to fund development/defray the expenses of less profitable Hasbro lines instead of allowing WotC to reinvest the profits into either growing the WotC brand or handing them out to investors (the latter being the REAL issue).

It's been that way for, well always. Most rounds of layoffs at WotC are due to Hasbro siphoning $ off to prop up the legacy consumer products, or to lessen the blow of movie flops.

I was a Wizard for 13+ years, until, after a year of record profits, Mr. Potato Head gave me the pink slip due to Battleship being a flop, and G. I.  Joe: Retaliation being delayed (to make it 3D, fml).

Just to you guys know, Magic the Gathering is as woke as D&D is right now if not even more.

The difference is that Mtg players will consume everything wotc throws at then, i have friends who spend more money on cards than they possibly can. They don't care how ugly, uninspired, incoherent and obviously political the new cards are, as long as they give it some game breaking effect they'll blindly consume it

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 19, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
From reading the financials in the report, it looks like Hasbro has been using the profits from WotC (MtG specifically) to fund development/defray the expenses of less profitable Hasbro lines instead of allowing WotC to reinvest the profits into either growing the WotC brand or handing them out to investors (the latter being the REAL issue).

Spinning off WotC would allow WotC to give more profits to the investors (while still reinvesting to grow WotC) and force Hasbro proper to actually work at making its other divisions more profitable since they won't be able to use WotC profits to keep them afloat.

That is definitely a problem with Hasbro. They've gotten very lax with their toys board gaming and related products in recent years as they use WOTC money to make it seem like the company is growing. Meanwhile upstarts like MGA Entertainment has been kicking their asses on the toy front with one inventive hit after another, with Bratz, Lolaloopsy, Rainbow High, L.O.L. Surprise (which became so popular at one point people were camping out Target and Walmart waiting for new shipments and scouring places like Best Buy for toys)., etc..

Meanwhile what has Hasbro done that took the market by storm like any of those products did in the past several years? New nerf stuff? Peppa pig stuff? My Little Pony? None of these are new. They're just licensed brands that are turning out ordinary stuff for known names. I think Littlest Pet Shop is the only thing somewhat inventive they've done lately.

Hasbro needs a kick in the butt to get innovating and spinning off WOTC might be just the thing they need for that.

Quote from: arctic_fox on February 20, 2022, 01:30:50 PMThe difference is that Mtg players will consume everything wotc throws at them.

Addicts can't be choosers. The very structure of MTG is 'Put up with it bitch - the game'. All MTG players that don't quit when they see power creep are just addicts lying to themselves.
Same goes with all CCG players. The very structure of all those games is to develop addiction - being good is secondary.

Regect MTG-ernity, return to monke board games

Quote from: FreetheWizards on February 20, 2022, 12:24:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 19, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
From reading the financials in the report, it looks like Hasbro has been using the profits from WotC (MtG specifically) to fund development/defray the expenses of less profitable Hasbro lines instead of allowing WotC to reinvest the profits into either growing the WotC brand or handing them out to investors (the latter being the REAL issue).

It's been that way for, well always. Most rounds of layoffs at WotC are due to Hasbro siphoning $ off to prop up the legacy consumer products, or to lessen the blow of movie flops.

I was a Wizard for 13+ years, until, after a year of record profits, Mr. Potato Head gave me the pink slip due to Battleship being a flop, and G. I.  Joe: Retaliation being delayed (to make it 3D, fml).

Thanks for the insight.

So, basically Hasbro was mismanaging things and costing investors profits just as the activist investor is pointing out. The investor seems to mainly want WotC split off so that Hasbro will stop wasting money on failing legacy products and crappy movies and instead let the stuff that is actually making a profit grow.

You know, in retrospect, it's probably a good thing for D&D that its movie rights were so screwed up... it kept Hasbro from turning out another of their stinkers that would have hurt the brand.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 20, 2022, 04:47:14 PM

Quote from: arctic_fox on February 20, 2022, 01:30:50 PMThe difference is that Mtg players will consume everything wotc throws at them.

Addicts can't be choosers. The very structure of MTG is 'Put up with it bitch - the game'. All MTG players that don't quit when they see power creep are just addicts lying to themselves.
Same goes with all CCG players. The very structure of all those games is to develop addiction - being good is secondary.

Regect MTG-ernity, return to monke board games

The CCG bubble burst back in the 90s and has never recovered and most compnies now know to avoid them. Some CCGs have been converted into standalone games.

And NO. LCGs are not CCGs. They are normal card games with lots of small non-random expansions in usually a monthly release table. FFG made or still makes a few. Not sure.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 20, 2022, 06:17:33 PM
You know, in retrospect, it's probably a good thing for D&D that its movie rights were so screwed up... it kept Hasbro from turning out another of their stinkers that would have hurt the brand.

you say that, but...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_(2023_film)

Quote from: Hakdov on February 21, 2022, 03:04:42 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 20, 2022, 06:17:33 PM
You know, in retrospect, it's probably a good thing for D&D that its movie rights were so screwed up... it kept Hasbro from turning out another of their stinkers that would have hurt the brand.

you say that, but...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_(2023_film)

Good for them. Goldstein and Daily also did Spider-Man Homecoming so they're at least better than the last efforts and it looks like Chris Pine is the lead so at least they're aware enough to not go completely Woke on it.

That said, the fact that this is a major motion picture aimed at normies means it's going to need to have at least one dungeon and one dragon in the story, which necessarily means that it's not going to look anything like what the starting experience for actual players is going to be... ergo, its not actually that great of an advertisement for the actual tabletop game, just for the lifestyle brand.

Quote from: FreetheWizards on February 20, 2022, 12:24:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 19, 2022, 04:53:16 PM
From reading the financials in the report, it looks like Hasbro has been using the profits from WotC (MtG specifically) to fund development/defray the expenses of less profitable Hasbro lines instead of allowing WotC to reinvest the profits into either growing the WotC brand or handing them out to investors (the latter being the REAL issue).

It's been that way for, well always. Most rounds of layoffs at WotC are due to Hasbro siphoning $ off to prop up the legacy consumer products, or to lessen the blow of movie flops.

I was a Wizard for 13+ years, until, after a year of record profits, Mr. Potato Head gave me the pink slip due to Battleship being a flop, and G. I.  Joe: Retaliation being delayed (to make it 3D, fml).

This actually makes a lot of sense in light of past reporting like this from 2021:

WOTC SEGMENT 75% OF HASBRO PROFITS IN Q1
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/48207/wotc-segment-75-hasbro-profits-q1

Magic money is mighty (and some D&D). I have worked in enough companies to know that they will milk one division to prop up others.

The activist investor kinda does have a point here.

I wonder...

I've been watching a lot of videos showcasing Transformers toys, and some of the third-party, non-Hasbro stuff is gorgeous. Like, 'stepped right out of the 80's cartoon and looks amazing' levels of awesome. I wonder if that's cutting into their revenue as well?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 22, 2022, 03:29:14 PM
I wonder...

I've been watching a lot of videos showcasing Transformers toys, and some of the third-party, non-Hasbro stuff is gorgeous. Like, 'stepped right out of the 80's cartoon and looks amazing' levels of awesome. I wonder if that's cutting into their revenue as well?

Part of it is just that their toys are cheap crap.

But aren't they all cheap crap?

IMHO - There are degrees of cost cutting that people notice, even if unconsciously...

I know that when I saw the "new" G.I. Joe toys in the 90's - the overall quality was a distinct and visible step down from the mid -80's G.I. Joes I still had in a drawer at home. Everything from the cheapness of the plastic to the finish and painting of the figures.

(Hasbro switched their factories from Hong Kong to China proper evidently.)

It has been a continual race to the bottom ever since. And if you know about the costs of plastic molding, it is a race driven by epic penny pinching greed.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 22, 2022, 03:29:14 PM
I wonder...

I've been watching a lot of videos showcasing Transformers toys, and some of the third-party, non-Hasbro stuff is gorgeous. Like, 'stepped right out of the 80's cartoon and looks amazing' levels of awesome. I wonder if that's cutting into their revenue as well?

Doubtful. Most of that would be under a license... Hasbro wouldn't be putting up any money, just receiving it. More likely, it's trying to sell their actual Transformers toys that are overpriced shoddy made-in-China crap that kids have zero interest in (seriously, my godkids have way fewer toys than I ever had at that age, because all they want to play with are their tablet/console games), but they need to put a modicum of support into to keep the IP trademarks viable (the same reason Marvel and DC trot out limited series of their C-list characters every half-dozen years... gotta keep the trademarks fresh; don't want another Captain Marvel fiasco to happen).

Also, instead of just taking the easy licensing money for films based on their properties, Hasbro keeps inserting its in-house studio into the mix so if it turns into a mega hit they can rake in the theoretical mega-bucks. This means they have to actually put up some of their own money and when the film doesn't do as well as projected, it harms Hasbro's bottom line... and other than the live-action Transformers films almost none of them made enough to cover their production expenses.

And when it comes to investors, things can be deemed failures if they don't produce enough profit... much less outright lose money.

So, yeah, basically Hasbro has been taking profits from WotC and dumping them into what could reasonably be called bad investments by the shareholders. From a financial point of view, the shareholders stand to make more money off a split-off WotC (which no longer has its profits wasted) and a Hasbro that's losing money (if Hasbro doesn't get its house in order the shareholders can write it off as a loss on their taxes while still making improved returns on the unburdened WotC).

From a purely investor profit position, the activist investor is right on target. Whether that's actually in D&D's best interest is a completely different kettle of fish.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 22, 2022, 04:18:56 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 22, 2022, 03:29:14 PM
I wonder...

I've been watching a lot of videos showcasing Transformers toys, and some of the third-party, non-Hasbro stuff is gorgeous. Like, 'stepped right out of the 80's cartoon and looks amazing' levels of awesome. I wonder if that's cutting into their revenue as well?

Part of it is just that their toys are cheap crap.

But aren't they all cheap crap?

IMHO - There are degrees of cost cutting that people notice, even if unconsciously...

I know that when I saw the "new" G.I. Joe toys in the 90's - the overall quality was a distinct and visible step down from the mid -80's G.I. Joes I still had in a drawer at home. Everything from the cheapness of the plastic to the finish and painting of the figures.

(Hasbro switched their factories from Hong Kong to China proper evidently.)

It has been a continual race to the bottom ever since. And if you know about the costs of plastic molding, it is a race driven by epic penny pinching greed.

Assuming you have the injection machines then the most expensive thing would be making the molds:

Create the original sculpture (this used to be made in physical form, nowadays it's made in 3d modelling and 3d printers (if needed).

Then make the actual molds, due to the multiple "textures" I would think this is done by electroerosion, which means you do need an original physical sculpture.

After that each figure's materials costs cents. A few more to have it actually made. A few more to pay for the molds. You're talking about 1 dollar tops including the shitty packaging.

Less if your plants are in China.