It really serves as a moral and ethical milestone for a person to have their failure (for whatever reason - be it on purpose or from being incompetent) to do this and *not* rectify it.

And this thread should continue to grow as the years go by to serve as a reminder that the person behind the game does matter. And while we can say "I can separate the artist from the work."... this remains true... but there has to be some *work* to make that claim.

In the meantime, he remains a thief. I *almost* backed this KS... but it was GMS, and his reputation had already preceded him for me. Condolences to those that chose otherwise... but you know, the flags were on the field from the start.

Quote from: tenbones on January 23, 2023, 12:02:37 PM
In the meantime, he remains a thief. I *almost* backed this KS... but it was GMS, and his reputation had already preceded him for me. Condolences to those that chose otherwise... but you know, the flags were on the field from the start.

I almost backed it myself.  Glad I didnt.  The way GMS acts is the main reason I didnt want to give him money.   Is he more low key these days or is he still his same arogant self?

HeroQuest 25th Anniversary is now approaching the 10 year mark.

Quote from: tenbones on January 23, 2023, 12:02:37 PM
And this thread should continue to grow as the years go by to serve as a reminder that the person behind the game does matter. And while we can say "I can separate the artist from the work."... this remains true... but there has to be some *work* to make that claim.

Agreed. But this is why I'm against Kickstarters. First, produce the work. Second, ask people to buy it. That's the way capitalism works. If you want to reverse it then shit is going to get messy.

Quote from: GhostNinjaIs he more low key these days or is he still his same arogant self?

He might be a lovely chap in person, I don't know. But online he's been abusive and obnoxious since... I dunno, must be 2005 if not earlier.

He's come up with some fun stuff like Hong Kong Action Theatre!, but again, I'd only pay for a published product of his.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 11:56:05 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 23, 2023, 12:02:37 PM
And this thread should continue to grow as the years go by to serve as a reminder that the person behind the game does matter. And while we can say "I can separate the artist from the work."... this remains true... but there has to be some *work* to make that claim.

Agreed. But this is why I'm against Kickstarters. First, produce the work. Second, ask people to buy it. That's the way capitalism works. If you want to reverse it then shit is going to get messy.

Conversely, do what I plan to do:

Finish the development and editing of the product
Then crowdfund just to pay for the art, printing, etc.
Every pledge of lets say $10-20 gets a fully indexed PDF plus the finished PDF (with art) upon a successful campaign.
Every pledge of $20-30 Gets in addition the softcover
Every pledge of $30-50 gets the PDFs plus the hardcover

The PDF without art is downloadable upon completing the pledge.

If worst comes to pass you got a playable game out of it, since the game is almost 100% done your risk as a baker is minimal, the time between finishing the campaign and the delivery gets reduced drastically.

In the early days of KS, there were these "pay me to turn this idea into a book" and some of them got funded and a few of them resulted in actual books. But pretty quickly, the dominant KS model was mostly done books that needed a polish, art, edit and the backers could see pages/chapter samples.

Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine (Stars without Number, Silent Legions, etc) is the best publisher for this. As soon as you pledge, you get access to his 90% done PDF of the book you're supporting.

I am still surprised the author of the excellent Hong Kong Action Theatre couldn't get this RPG done, just for the FU to all of us mocking him for not producing it. He'd totally have the last laugh if he published Far West and it was freaking awesome.

But I doubt that day is coming.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 02:05:38 AM
In the early days of KS, there were these "pay me to turn this idea into a book" and some of them got funded and a few of them resulted in actual books. But pretty quickly, the dominant KS model was mostly done books that needed a polish, art, edit and the backers could see pages/chapter samples.

Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine (Stars without Number, Silent Legions, etc) is the best publisher for this. As soon as you pledge, you get access to his 90% done PDF of the book you're supporting.

I am still surprised the author of the excellent Hong Kong Action Theatre couldn't get this RPG done, just for the FU to all of us mocking him for not producing it. He'd totally have the last laugh if he published Far West and it was freaking awesome.

But I doubt that day is coming.

Well, I didn't know Kevin Crawford did that on his KS campaign.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 02:05:38 AMI am still surprised the author of the excellent Hong Kong Action Theatre couldn't get this RPG done, just for the FU to all of us mocking him for not producing it. He'd totally have the last laugh if he published Far West and it was freaking awesome.

I'm going to stop procrastinating tomorrow.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 11:56:05 PM
Agreed. But this is why I'm against Kickstarters. First, produce the work. Second, ask people to buy it. That's the way capitalism works. If you want to reverse it then shit is going to get messy.

There are people who do this: Kevin at Sine Nomine Games and Greyhawk Grognard of BRW Games in particular.

In general, they have a draft ready before they do the KS which they use to fund art and editing.

That's not 100% done but both now have a track record of doing that and then coming in on time or even early. Kevin usually releases the draft to backers as soon as the KS closes.

Both also have no issues with funding KS after KS. Funny how that works.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 02:05:38 AM
I am still surprised the author of the excellent Hong Kong Action Theatre couldn't get this RPG done, just for the FU to all of us mocking him for not producing it. He'd totally have the last laugh if he published Far West and it was freaking awesome.

But I doubt that day is coming.

I doubt it.  With it being so late.  State Attorney Generals investigating and all of the other problems there is no way even with this being pubished that he will get the last laugh.

I hope this might humble him but I doubt it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 11:56:05 PM
He might be a lovely chap in person, I don't know. But online he's been abusive and obnoxious since... I dunno, must be 2005 if not earlier.

He's come up with some fun stuff like Hong Kong Action Theatre!, but again, I'd only pay for a published product of his.

From what I hear (Never met the guy) its highly doubtful.

Designers who treat customers like he does will never get money from me, no matter how good their product is.

Quote from: PulpHerb on January 24, 2023, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 11:56:05 PM
Agreed. But this is why I'm against Kickstarters. First, produce the work. Second, ask people to buy it. That's the way capitalism works. If you want to reverse it then shit is going to get messy.

There are people who do this: Kevin at Sine Nomine Games and Greyhawk Grognard of BRW Games in particular.

In general, they have a draft ready before they do the KS which they use to fund art and editing.

That's not 100% done but both now have a track record of doing that and then coming in on time or even early. Kevin usually releases the draft to backers as soon as the KS closes.

Both also have no issues with funding KS after KS. Funny how that works.

Some product start as an idea in need of backers.
Others start as a product in need of funds to produce.

KS provides for both. But over time companies have shifted the perception that KS is a store and you are buying a product.
Worse there are people now selling ideas as if they were product in need of producing.

The scams are in a way irrelevant. They existed long before KS existed. They are just more prevalent and it is easier to make a business selling scams now than ever before. Golden Bell and Game Salute continue to plague KS to this day.

How isn't this clearly WOTC? They took the industry leader and turned it into something so vile the OSR (a competitor) became a thing. How many Ennie awards has D&D gained? Zach S, a WOTC consultant/foe has more awards than WOTC. Pundit's produced better games than D&D but the Twitterati stoned him. What has Chris Perkins done that Jim Ward didn't outdo? The odoriferous stench of WOTC's creative staff has breathed new life into the OSR.

WOTC isn't just terrible: they hold back the entire hobby in a way that's opposite of TSR.

There are kids playing their D&D campaign that weren't born when Far West was funded.

Meanwhile, I've followed through on 120 products (including tons of bestsellers) while people have been waiting for GMS' one product.

Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:30:04 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on January 24, 2023, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 23, 2023, 11:56:05 PM
Agreed. But this is why I'm against Kickstarters. First, produce the work. Second, ask people to buy it. That's the way capitalism works. If you want to reverse it then shit is going to get messy.

There are people who do this: Kevin at Sine Nomine Games and Greyhawk Grognard of BRW Games in particular.

In general, they have a draft ready before they do the KS which they use to fund art and editing.

That's not 100% done but both now have a track record of doing that and then coming in on time or even early. Kevin usually releases the draft to backers as soon as the KS closes.

Both also have no issues with funding KS after KS. Funny how that works.

Some product start as an idea in need of backers.
Others start as a product in need of funds to produce.

KS provides for both. But over time companies have shifted the perception that KS is a store and you are buying a product.

Worse, a lot of backers have taken to see it as a store.

As for an idea in need of backers vs. a product in need of funds to produce, in the RPG space I think expecting a significant draft to share with backers before you raise funds and sharing that draft upon funding isn't unreasonable. It shows you have thought about the idea and committed some time to it.

While I cut some people some slack that is less true today than a decade okay. First, a decade ago people were still figuring the process out. Now, even a first-timer has plenty of resources to help plan.

Second, after Gossamer Worlds Compendium for Gossamer & Shadow was delivered, not many excuses suffice. It was delivered 21 months late. The reason? It was funded in March 2016. In July 2016 the creator was killed in a car accident. His widow worked with the other members of the project to get the original creator's work finished and pulled the project together. When Steve died I figured that was that, but the project still got delivered and while late, not nearly as late as others with smaller hurdles. Miranda Russell and company set a pretty high bar for others.