QuoteWhat i'm describing is rather the norm instead of exception, so please shut your fanboy mouth, pretty please!

What you are describing cant be more than your personal believe. There is no survey to prove or disprove your point, which also makes it hard to argue against.

I don't know about your experience with the game and some of its fans, so i can only tell about my experience which is positiv.

I never said TDE/DSA is the only RPG in the world worth playing, because i like to play other RPG's aswell. My believe is, that if you should play the RPG which offers the way of Gaming you are in the mood for and that sometimes is TDE but sometimes may be Cthulu or Paranoia.

The Topic is "Has Anyone Played "The Dark Eye" and yes i have played it and i will play it in the future. I am convinced of its advantages and i now for shure that its a game and not the Nazi-Party.

Do you really believe your experience are bound to the system these people play. I dont think so! If you GM likes to railroad through his adventures he can aswell use Midgard or D&D to make this kind of adventure.

I believe your problem is rather with the game but with the dogmatic style the players are approaching it. My experience differ in this regard. It's true there are somewhat dogmatic gamers which are narrow minded about the way you should play the game.

Just last week we had a new player at the table who was fed up with the game before he played with us and he told me afterwards that although he had played TDE for 10 years this session was the first time he played it, like it was intended to be.

When i started to play TDE in my younger ages i also had a terrible GM which made walls out of nothing just so you cant leave the road. This sucks and is the cause for frustration with the game but its not the recommended way to play the game. It is not the right way for a GM to approach any RPG.

In conclusion, i know that there are people playing TDE in a very dogmatic and railroading way but the game itself can be played quite differently. You dont change the style people play by changing the system but to show them, that its more fun, to play it differently. What i know is that there are a lot of people that play TDE differently then you described and that it has its strenght like the realism cultivated in the game. If you use the element TDE offers you will be suprised what a fine game you have in your hands. That is my point.

Ps.: If my english is really that bad, this is probably because i am not a native speaker and i cant see how my ability to write in english should effekt the validity of my arguments.

QuoteThe Topic is "Has Anyone Played "The Dark Eye" and yes i have played it  and i will play it in the future. I am convinced of its advantages and i  now for shure that its a game and not the Nazi-Party.

No not NSDAP, Wandervogel! Please freshen up your education and see how fitting the similé is.
In short, you are one world war too far...

Quote from: Settembrini;605216No not NSDAP, Wandervogel! Please freshen up your education and see how fitting the similé is.
In short, you are one world war too far...

Ok Settembrini enlighten me. How exactly is the TDE game (Not the gamers) made to be like a german hiking movement from the early 20th century?

I know its very german to complain and to neg about everything. Its fine this is the way of our democratic understanding. But dont you think you're missing the point?

You dont like the metaplot? Then dont use it. You dont like the detailed world of aventuria? Thats what Myranor is for (btw there is no Metaplot in Myranor aswell).

If you have a problem with the way the game is approached and played then this is something you cant change. If people like to play in this fashion it doesnt matter what if they play TDE, D&D or Midgard. They will always play in that fashion. I've seen dogmatic GM's in games like Vampire or Shadowrun or selfwritten GURPS-Scenarios aswell. This has nothing to do with the game. So i cant see your point.

What are you trying to say? What does it matter what I can change or not?*
You seem to have admitted that indeed, railroading and ambiénce plus romanticism are the default DSA-way of GMing.

And that German gamers like that a lot and transport it to other games naturally flows from that observation.

It is now very hard to parse your post, it looks like you are contradicting yourselves now, heavily.

So maybe you wanna try talking in German? I happen to have a messageboard. You seem to be too dim-witted to fare well at the Disputorium, though, were we have butchered the inane arguments of higher calibre fanboiz in the olden days...


*I think I have changed the German RPG scene as much as it is possible  with just a measly blog & an axe to grind vs railroading...

QuoteYou seem to have admitted that indeed, railroading and ambiénce plus romanticism are the default DSA-way of GMing.

First of all, i never said that. I said that i can neither prove nor disprove any arguments on how the majority GM's is playing the game. But you can't do this aswell unless you make a survey and ask a significant part of the TDE-Comunity about their ways of GMing.

Secondly i dont think that the atmosphere in a game is a bad thing in roleplaying. You obviously hate it, but does it there are a lot of roleplayers that like a well made atmosphere. That is a question of taste.

What i critizised is a certain way of GMing that is very dogmativ and restrictive. I strongly disagree with you that the reason for that is TDE, but a lack of creativity and in some cases a longing for control. The phenomenon is not actually something TDE specific and it is not part of the rules.

QuoteIt is now very hard to parse your post, it looks like you are contradicting yourselves now, heavily.

And how do i contradict myself? How about some real arguments?

QuoteSo maybe you wanna try talking in German?

No thanks, i think my english is just fine. The problem is, that you dont want to understand me.

QuoteYou seem to be too dim-witted to fare well at the Disputorium, though, were we have butchered the inane arguments of higher calibre fanboiz in the olden days...

Seriously? You obviously dont now how to argue in a proper way so you have to insult me. This is pathetic!

In this thread, Sett stoops to Godwining the newcomer, non-stop.

@Nebelherr: I just have to take a look at the DSA/TDE boards to get the drift about how these guys play the game, no need for a survey among fanboys (If the results of the survey of 2011 would still be online, i'd post them so would see your fanboyish fallacies)

QuoteI've seen dogmatic GM's in games like Vampire or Shadowrun or selfwritten GURPS-Scenarios aswell. This has nothing to do with the game. So i cant see your point.

Uhm, bullshit.
The game books come with built-in BS assumptions that force the dogma down a customer's throat, it's similar to what's done with German CoC books, although not as overtly visible and vile, but it is there, on a really dominating level.

Yes, Mr. Nebelherr, there were numerous surveys. And endless, endless discussions in online fandom. The wiki aventurica is full of romanticims & railroading apologetics.
They usually admit it and they like it.

http://rollenspielstatistiker.wordpress.com/

It can be safely said it is a basic fact of the German RPG scene. What you do here is plain obfuscation.

Quote from: Settembrini;605582Yes, Mr. Nebelherr, there were numerous surveys. And endless, endless discussions in online fandom. The wiki aventurica is full of romanticims & railroading apologetics.
They usually admit it and they like it.

I get the impression you dont read my post and just write down your arguments. You seem to have the impression that i oppose railroading in general, but if you actually would read my posts you would find, that i dont do it. I dont have a problem with railroading. My problem was with a kind of GMing that i cant stand.

Quotehttp://rollenspielstatistiker.wordpress.com/

Thanks for the Link, but there are two problems here. The statistics dont support your point and they are not representitive in more than one way.

QuoteIt can be safely said it is a basic fact of the German RPG scene. What you do here is plain obfuscation.

Since your presented statistics arent representitive it cant safely be said.
Nonetheless is it right that railroading is a part of the adventures that you can buy. I dont have a problem with railroading to a certain degree. If you follow a certain Plot you need to set some goals and yes if you play an adventure that is based on the metaplot certain things have to happen. But i seldom have read an adventure in TDE 4 where you arent encouraged to make your own scenarios to enrich the Main-Plot. Of course you have also the freedom to do whatever you want with the adventures and change whatever you want (thats what i mostly do), because there is no TDE-Police.

In Roleplaying you dont need to have a story at all. You just can GM from the top of your head, which i have done on some occasions, but at the end of the day its nice to have some story to follow through.

BTW with "Myranor" you have a metaplot free enviroment inside the TDE univere where you can do whatever you want.

QuoteUhm, bullshit.
The game books come with built-in BS assumptions that force the dogma down a customer's throat

Ok, please offer me an example, otherwise i really have problems to follow your logic?

Not representative? N= 2297!

'Nuff said.

All in all you have not understood the arguments brought forth by people in this thread and move goalposts all the time.


I break it down for you once more:

The DSA-culture has a railroading-supportive baseline. That is pervasive and statistically as well as qualitatively proven countless of times. Quite clearly it is so pervasive as to inform what many Germans, Mr. Nebelherr included, perceive as what actually consitutes RPGs as pastime. You specifically have yet to rise above the primordial mud from which you budded. Thus your arguments reinforce everything others have said about the fallacies rising from that peculiar Gerkman viewpoint on RPGs.
This obviously leaves you puzzled, but makes further argumentation relatively circular...

But to be clear, is it the case that this style of play is a cultural thing? That is, there's nothing inherent in the rules of DSA that oblige this sort of play?

RPGPundit

No, the rules are undecided about this. But there is ample "best practice" examples in the form of essays printed alongside the rules. It is quite schizophrenic in its presentation. There is an anniversary tome, were the main designers of the 90ies admit they put it many rules just to appease players and actually thought those who used them were idiots!
And nearly every module breathes this air, too.

EDIT: Note that the OFFICIAL MODULES or adventures, as they are called, reign supreme in Germany. Running self-designed adventures is enough to make you a small celebrity...and the DSA-adventures, they are ridiculous railroads 99.9% of the time.

Quote from: Nebelherr;605619Ok, please offer me an example, otherwise i really have problems to follow your logic?

Basically the complete GM book and all the "Auf ein Wort" sections.
There are many many many instances where the designers (sometimes openly, most oven in a rather covert manner) tell the customers what they think "good" RPGing is, and what is not.
I can't name 'em off the top of my head right now, because i sold all my TDE stuff years ago after i've finally had it with the "system", the designers and its basement dweller troglodyte fanbase. I've sunk money into the system with hopes something... anything would improve, but it got worse with every edition so i finally kicked that vile toxic habit of playing DSA.

Quote from: RPGPundit;605863But to be clear, is it the case that this style of play is a cultural thing? That is, there's nothing inherent in the rules of DSA that oblige this sort of play?

RPGPundit

Well... unless you would take into account that the character generation section (which is, btw. divided into a whole book of its own with material needed from two other books if you'd want to play a cleric or wizard) has setting assumptions hardwired into the generation system with regard to drawbacks&flaws a character has to take.

An elf, for example is hardwired to be naive and alien, there's no workaround for that as far as i recall.

The problem isn't necessarily the clunky, slow and almost cancerous rules system, but how the "style of play" as you call it is marketed and tied in with the published books. It's like as if D&D would've been published with a MAJOR part of it being Gygaxian cliff notes that are featured prominently and spreadlythoroughly throughout the published material.

Quote from: RPGPundit;605863But to be clear, is it the case that this style of play is a cultural thing? That is, there's nothing inherent in the rules of DSA that oblige this sort of play?

RPGPundit

Yes, in my limited experience it is a german cultural thing. Nearly every time i left our home table to play a RPGat a con, regardless of the system, i was bored to tears by some exponent of this so called Stimmungsspiel (moodplay).

So i stopped playing RPGs at cons, participating in Battletech tournaments or boardgames.