I have a new group who is interested in trying Pendragon, and I'm not all to familiar with it (it always seems to happen that I get groups who want to play games I've never ran or played before), but there's some desire to change the setting from an Arthurian one, to the Viking Age, or perhaps the contest of the throne between Harald, Harold, and William, with a more gritty historical take on it, rather than the romanticism of Arthur.
Would it be much work to change things? Would I even really have to change much (the knightly virtues would be one thing I think)? Perhaps there's some source book out there that I could use to aid in things (I'm generally knowledgeable about the time periods at hand, and so on that front I wouldn't need too much really).
For reference, I have managed to get:
Pendragon 5th Edition
The Great Pendragon Campaign
Pendragon Saxons
I've never read Pendragon Saxons. To me Pendragon's system is so tied to the knightly Arthurian setting I'm not sure why one would adapt it for another setting. I can't see how one would adapt the expressly Arhurian Great Pendragon Campaign to a Viking setting. Or perhaps more exactly why you would do it. To adapt it to a historical setting would also seem to work expressly against the material.
I do love the stripped down BRP combat system in Pendragon, for me a great balance of 'realism' and simplicity. That would adapt well to a Viking or gritty historical setting.
I would suggest keep the combat mechanics but find a completely different source for the setting. The Vikings Historical Reference for 2e may be of use.
Unless I'm mistaken, Pendragon's underlying system is an adaption of the Basic Roleplaying rules from Chaosium. As such, you might check out the Basic roleplaying supplement Mythic Iceland:
(http://media.diehardgamefan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/iceland1.png)
You might be interested in 4th Edition Pendragon, which included source books supporting a very wide range of settings and campaigns - Vikings, Picts, Saxons, Irish, and a lower level of detail on a wide range of continental europeans. You could really play just about any broadly medieval european place or time. I would recommend sticking with the core system - it is easy to learn and well engineered, and its way of describing characters and their personalities and motivations is exceptionally well suited to these sorts of settings.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;945137Unless I'm mistaken, Pendragon's underlying system is an adaption of the Basic Roleplaying rules from Chaosium.
That's right. It removes the fiddly Runequest hit locations amd has a few other smart tweaks.
Cool, I can actually borrow that from a friend who has it. Thanks for the tip.
Weren't there some upcoming Pendragon releases I was reading about? A Samurai setting and a Musketeers setting?
I played a Samurai Pendragon homebrew at a convention in the ancient times. The GM had done so much work to reskin it felt like an entirely different game. Very fun, but deeply homebrewed. Didn't understand why the GM just didn't run Oriental Adventures or Bushido instead. [This was in the pre-L5R years]
The RuneQuest and Pendragon systems are obviously related, although I'd say the changes amount to more than just a few tweaks.
The Characteristics - now called Attributes - are just five physical ones: Size, Dexterity, Strength, Constitution and Appearance. The mental/social Attributes of RuneQuest are now solely replaced by skills in a few cases and otherwise in chart of Personality Traits. These are presented in a similar way to to a 20PF psychology test, with each trait being two-tailed (e.g. Lustful vs Chaste, etc). Characters also have Passions and various background details to flesh out what drives them in the story. There are less skills, generally, and magic is only really touched upon for NPCs as characters are all assumed to be Knights (or Ladies as fits female characters).
The Abilities are more defined in their use than classic RuneQuest, with more adapted uses overall and the derived attributes clearly stated. All rolls are based upon D20 rolls, rather than percentiles - although this converts easily enough and it does mean that there is no longer any scale difference between Characteristics and Skills as before.
Combat is reduced to a single, competitive D20 roll per combatant. You need to roll high, but below your own targeted Skill value. Highest successful roll gets to swing their weapon, with the loser soaking up the damage. There is no 'initiative roll' or Strike Ranks to deal with, nor are there hit locations. Armour, Size and Constitution are compared for things like damage reduction, knock back and major blows, with the damage effect being rolled on D6 dice pools based upon the combination of Strength and Size. It's a simpler system than RuneQuest, but tends to fit the fighting styles of medieval knights specifically. It can be deadly, and there are few healing options in the game.
The campaign structure of Pendragon is also developed into seasons and aims at long term play where characters develop legacies of children who grow up. It is generally assumed that all the characters will die - either through violence or old age. The tone of the game is different, with romance being an important theme in the narrative and of course there is a hearty literature source to delve into with it.
There was some talk before of another version of the game based upon the Frankish Empire - called Paladin(?) - which would fit. However, I'm not fully convinced yet about Samurai or other settings.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;945216The RuneQuest and Pendragon systems are obviously related, although I'd say the changes amount to more than just a few tweaks.
The Characteristics - now called Attributes - are just five physical ones: Size, Dexterity, Strength, Constitution and Appearance. The mental/social Attributes of RuneQuest are now solely replaced by skills in a few cases and otherwise in chart of Personality Traits. These are presented in a similar way to to a 20PF psychology test, with each trait being two-tailed (e.g. Lustful vs Chaste, etc). Characters also have Passions and various background details to flesh out what drives them in the story. There are less skills, generally, and magic is only really touched upon for NPCs as characters are all assumed to be Knights (or Ladies as fits female characters).
Yes, the dropping of the mental/spiritual characteristics is a big difference. While, Personality Traits were introduced first into RuneQuest in a Different Worlds article (not sure, might have been somewhere else) they didn't have any mechanical use in a game. In Pendragon, however, a player often has to test Personality Traits. In published scenarios, a failed Personality Trait roll often leads to PCs behaving in ways contrary to the player's intent. For me, Personality Traits are the most contentious part of the system as they are used, as typified by published scenarios, as a storygame-like mechanic where a PCs behaviour is dictated by what is genre and character appropriate rather than what the player wants to do, removing player agency. Passions are far less problematic and are always used in a positive fashion. A character invokes a passion to get a bonus on the action performed. Indeed, Paul Nash and Lawrence Whitaker added Passions into RuneQuest II and Mythras, but not Personality Traits.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;945216The Abilities are more defined in their use than classic RuneQuest, with more adapted uses overall and the derived attributes clearly stated. All rolls are based upon D20 rolls, rather than percentiles - although this converts easily enough and it does mean that there is no longer any scale difference between Characteristics and Skills as before.
Combat is reduced to a single, competitive D20 roll per combatant. You need to roll high, but below your own targeted Skill value. Highest successful roll gets to swing their weapon, with the loser soaking up the damage. There is no 'initiative roll' or Strike Ranks to deal with, nor are there hit locations. Armour, Size and Constitution are compared for things like damage reduction, knock back and major blows, with the damage effect being rolled on D6 dice pools based upon the combination of Strength and Size. It's a simpler system than RuneQuest, but tends to fit the fighting styles of medieval knights specifically. It can be deadly, and there are few healing options in the game.
To be honest the Pendragon "engine" is really just a simplified BRP using d20 rather than d100.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;945216The campaign structure of Pendragon is also developed into seasons and aims at long term play where characters develop legacies of children who grow up. It is generally assumed that all the characters will die - either through violence or old age. The tone of the game is different, with romance being an important theme in the narrative and of course there is a hearty literature source to delve into with it.
I would say that the dynastic element of Pendragon play really marks its major deviation from BRP. A Pendragon campaign is expected to run over decades of game time rather than months or years as in other RPGs.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;945216There was some talk before of another version of the game based upon the Frankish Empire - called Paladin(?) - which would fit. However, I'm not fully convinced yet about Samurai or other settings.
The game is called Paladin and is supposed to be kickstarted sometime this month, according to the author. From the Nocturnal Media forums, it appears to have been written some time ago. Whether it has been developed or edited, I'm not sure. I totally agree that a game based on the chansons de geste is totally in the spirit of the original system.
As for other settings, I'm not sure. I think the system might work for a dynastic epic. It might work for a Sengoku Jidai (16th century Japan) samurai game where the PCs are trying to make their clan powerful and, eventually, become Shogun. I once owned the Pagan Shore (tribal Irish), Land of Giants (Vikings/Beowulf) and Saxons books and while they were interesting I don't think they really sat that well with the core Pendragon playstyle. I'm looking forward to Design Mechanisms's Mythic Britain: Saxons as I think it might make a superior replacement to Saxons. I would also say that Cubicle 7's Yggdrasill RPG, which is also set in 5th/6th century Scandinavia, is superior to Land of Giants.
Quote from: yojimbouk;945421As for other settings, I'm not sure. I think the system might work for a dynastic epic. It might work for a Sengoku Jidai (16th century Japan) samurai game where the PCs are trying to make their clan powerful and, eventually, become Shogun. I once owned the Pagan Shore (tribal Irish), Land of Giants (Vikings/Beowulf) and Saxons books and while they were interesting I don't think they really sat that well with the core Pendragon playstyle. I'm looking forward to Design Mechanisms's Mythic Britain: Saxons as I think it might make a superior replacement to Saxons. I would also say that Cubicle 7's Yggdrasill RPG, which is also set in 5th/6th century Scandinavia, is superior to Land of Giants.
As well, an ancient Greek Classic era setting is being released. Information here (http://igwilliams.blogspot.com/search/label/Before%20Iron). I do like the idea of the player's creating divine blooded characters each in character of a city-state. I'll probably kickstart this, along with Paladin.
Wasn't there talk at one point about how there was going to be a Pendragon book set in the age of Charlemagne? Or did that fall through? Or did I just dream it?
Quote from: RPGPundit;946106Wasn't there talk at one point about how there was going to be a Pendragon book set in the age of Charlemagne? Or did that fall through? Or did I just dream it?
The Kickstarter is launching sometime this month; Greg Stafford himself is involved in getting it published.
I must respectfully disagree with those who have said that Pendragon should not be, or cannot be adapted. The Great Pendragon Campaign, of course, is only revelant to Arthurian adventure, but the 5th edition rules are easily adaptable to settings that have a similiar aesthetic. It can be as 'romantic' or as 'gritty' as you and your players want it to be, in agreement with whatever that means.
I ran a very successful Pendragon campaign converting the setting to a sad historical Scottish RPG set around the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. The only rules I changed were swapping muskets for bows and giving them a little bump in damage I think, and including bagpipes as a musical instrument.
People got to be in big battles, in small duels, to get drunk and highland dance, to woo fair maidens, to die in childbird, to have a horse go lame and the crops to fail and the English to oppress them, and the generations to contine rolling along the route of the Bonnie Prince Charlie. It was awesome.
I've also played in a Pendragon campaign that was a mutli-generational space opera, again with no change in rules other than renaming "swords" to "laser swords".
I highly recommend adapting Pendragon.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Thegn Ansgar;945131I have a new group who is interested in trying Pendragon, and I'm not all to familiar with it (it always seems to happen that I get groups who want to play games I've never ran or played before), but there's some desire to change the setting from an Arthurian one, to the Viking Age, or perhaps the contest of the throne between Harald, Harold, and William, with a more gritty historical take on it, rather than the romanticism of Arthur.
Would it be much work to change things? Would I even really have to change much (the knightly virtues would be one thing I think)? Perhaps there's some source book out there that I could use to aid in things (I'm generally knowledgeable about the time periods at hand, and so on that front I wouldn't need too much really).
For reference, I have managed to get:
Pendragon 5th Edition
The Great Pendragon Campaign
Pendragon Saxons
Well, it worked great for Ivanhoe and Robin Hood-era England with barely any fuss at all as all the underlying rules work fine for any Dark Ages action. Only things that needed to be adapted were making the Saxons the "native" culture instead of Cymric, and adding in the Normans. 4th ed Pendragon already has plenty of material for doing that. I could see doing Beowulf as well, just changing the culture again as the technology is pretty well the same. And the dynastic rules and "one adventure per year" are easy to ignore if you aren't interested in that. Really I've found the only changes needed have been which Traits a culture values and what Passions a character might have. Blending Mythic Iceland into Pendragon should be pretty easy for Vikings, or using RuneQuest Vikings is always out there if you can locate a copy.
For a vikings campaign, you'll want to dig up a copy of the old "Land of Giants" supplement. (It was either for 3rd or 4th edition.)
Pendragon is a great core system for any sort of highly dramatic, character driven game. I found myself once toying with using it for a Spaghetti Western game, dealing with homesteaders, the Westward Expansion era, etc. I thought it would have been a lot of fun, and a perfect match for the system. Sadly, my players weren't interested in a Western game.
In response to those who have argued for Pendragon as a generic system, the problem lies in the way in which it is set up to simulate a specific setting. Combat for example, assumes that you are going to slog it out with heavyish armour providing much needed protection, while avoiding knock down and the like. There's no kung fu or spanish matador theatrics here. While you could make efforts to adapt it's broader system, you still have to recognise that it's set up is tailored for a specific setting.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of its combat as it is truly elegant and to use a term from another thread 'realistic' but it is very much based around knight vs. knight.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;946279In response to those who have argued for Pendragon as a generic system, the problem lies in the way in which it is set up to simulate a specific setting. Combat for example, assumes that you are going to slog it out with heavyish armour providing much needed protection, while avoiding knock down and the like. There's no kung fu or spanish matador theatrics here. While you could make efforts to adapt it's broader system, you still have to recognise that it's set up is tailored for a specific setting.
Works well for many settings without your kung fun and matadors, as noted earlier by several folks who have already used it in ways that show your assertion to be incorrect. You might want to check into the definitions of words such as "specific" and "setting." Or do you think a bat can only be used to play baseball, too?
Quote from: TrippyHippy;946279In response to those who have argued for Pendragon as a generic system, the problem lies in the way in which it is set up to simulate a specific setting. Combat for example, assumes that you are going to slog it out with heavyish armour providing much needed protection, while avoiding knock down and the like.
That's not really much of a problem in trying to replicate most historical eras though. Armour really does matter in terms of providing protection. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I quite like what I've read in the core book. It really seems to do armour right, even armour that most folks would dub "lighter" such as chain and scale and lamellar.
It essentially does a very good approximation of battlefield style combat in my opinion. Not necessarily knight vs. knight (because that has some tricky implications), but rather pitting trained well equipped warriors against one another. Essentially suitable for any type of melee based combat where armour is worn as a general thing.
Quote from: Matt;946332Works well for many settings without your kung fun and matadors, as noted earlier by several folks who have already used it in ways that show your assertion to be incorrect. You might want to check into the definitions of words such as "specific" and "setting." Or do you think a bat can only be used to play baseball, too?
It's been used for "many settings"? Fine although none of them have been published to date and, if you are going to assert my observations are incorrect, some detail about how these games actually work in subsystems like combat would be nice. The notion of it being a specific design for the setting largely stems from the designer himself, Greg Stafford, by the way. He expressly states that Pendragon is designed to be a genre game rather than a generic one in his essays. Yes, you could expand the system into more generic areas - the same is true of any system, regardless of what Ron Edwards says - but there is some work to do.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;946107The Kickstarter is launching sometime this month; Greg Stafford himself is involved in getting it published.
Heh. I'm still amazed those guys decided to bring Prince Valiant back. I'll be curious to see what they do with a new KAP-based game, but they seem to have strange priorities.
I think an RPG for kids is a great idea. Otherwise this hobby will die off.
Quote from: Voros;946378I think an RPG for kids is a great idea. Otherwide this hobby will die off.
I dunno...when I was a kid, I hated things "for kids." I'd say, if you want an rpg to appeal to kids, declare its suggested age much older, and imply that its somehow "mature" and "dangerous".
That was true for me as a teen but not as a kid. Remember the best-selling TSR product ever was the Red Box.
I think there's some sloppy terms going around in this thread. Just because a system can be adapted to something very similar does not mean it's 'generic'. I don't think anyone has said anything even close to the idea that the Pendragon system can be used for anything.
Pendragon works only within a narrow band of genre emulation, and it does that very well, but I'm not about to bust out Pendragon for my next silver age superheroes game. Taking a one-step lateral design step to the left and filling in some new details does not make a game 'generic'.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Coffee Zombie;945154Weren't there some upcoming Pendragon releases I was reading about? A Samurai setting and a Musketeers setting?
"Before Iron" was supposed to be released in 2016 but it wasn't and I haven't heard about it lately. However I traded blog posts with the author and he said he had completed his piece of it (years ago) so it's now up to Nocturnal. Before Iron is based on Pendragon rules but takes place in mythic Greece.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;946107The Kickstarter is launching sometime this month; Greg Stafford himself is involved in getting it published.
That's great news!
Quote from: CanBeOnlyOne;946479"Before Iron" was supposed to be released in 2016 but it wasn't and I haven't heard about it lately. However I traded blog posts with the author and he said he had completed his piece of it (years ago) so it's now up to Nocturnal. Before Iron is based on Pendragon rules but takes place in mythic Greece.
My brother and I are the authors on that one. I think it was my brother with whom you spoke. We, indeed, finished that one up ages ago, and I haven't heard anything in awhile. I hope you guys see it one day. There's some cool stuff in there!
Quote from: PSW;947600My brother and I are the authors on that one. I think it was my brother with whom you spoke. We, indeed, finished that one up ages ago, and I haven't heard anything in awhile. I hope you guys see it one day. There's some cool stuff in there!
This is a great idea; I hope it sees light of day!
I'd buy the Greek one too. Luckily, at the rate they are getting them out we have plenty of time to save up money. lol
Quote from: PSW;947600My brother and I are the authors on that one. I think it was my brother with whom you spoke. We, indeed, finished that one up ages ago, and I haven't heard anything in awhile. I hope you guys see it one day. There's some cool stuff in there!
Hope so too!
Quote from: PSW;947600My brother and I are the authors on that one. I think it was my brother with whom you spoke. We, indeed, finished that one up ages ago, and I haven't heard anything in awhile. I hope you guys see it one day. There's some cool stuff in there!
mark me down as another fellow keenly interested in Before Iron, though I prefered the Age of Bronze title . . .
Before Iron is a terrible title but if that game ever comes out I'll still be interested! I love Pendragon in general. Haven't been able to play if nearly as much as I would like to.
Paladin Kickstarter coming and it looks like this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1136[/ATTACH]
Let's hope that's not the final artwork then. The logo is good, though.
Quote from: Dumarest;974706Let's hope that's not the final artwork then. The logo is good, though.
You think that is bad artwork?! Good job you're not involved in the game's development.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;975371You think that is bad artwork?! Good job you're not involved in the game's development.
Let's see...we have a guy on a horse looking off to the side and nothing happening. He even looks bored. Nothing intriguing, nothing that says adventure or excitement, nothing to indicate what the game is about except that it has knights in it. So yes, that is bad artwork to sell a game.
I guess you're not going to enjoy the new Pendragon cover either then.
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Quote from: TrippyHippy;975540I guess you're not going to enjoy the new Pendragon cover either then.
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Nope, that is equally boring. But I see they are going for a theme. I just see nothing about the chosen art that says "ADVENTURE AWAITS! EXCITEMENT ENSUES! PLAY ME!" If I didn't already know Pendragon was awesome, I might not look past the covers.
The thing is, the central deal with Pendragon is "KNIGHTS!".
In this context, the cover is pretty self-explanatory.
Personally, I just think they look awesome:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1155[/ATTACH]
Hope they can release a whole line of books with the same cover format. What next....Samurai?
Kickstarter up:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nocturnalmedia/paladin-warriors-of-charlemagne?ref=user_menu
Quote from: TrippyHippy;976153Hope they can release a whole line of books with the same cover format. What next....Samurai?
A Bronze Age Greek Heroes game and a Samurai game were planned. Manuscripts for both were received. The Bronze Age game was to be up after Paladin. Then the samurai game after that.
Whether that is still the plan is up to Greg Stafford and Nocturnal Media.
Backed it.
Awesome to see it go live. Looking forward to getting it.
Woohoo. Gonna get the hardbound of Paladin and Pendragon 5.2. Might get some of those dice too, they're the first custom dice I've seen in a while that aren't so busy with art I can't read them.
Quote from: Dumarest;975565Nope, that is equally boring. But I see they are going for a theme. I just see nothing about the chosen art that says "ADVENTURE AWAITS! EXCITEMENT ENSUES! PLAY ME!" If I didn't already know Pendragon was awesome, I might not look past the covers.
I love the black adn red flag but otherwise agree
Quote from: Thegn Ansgar;945131I have a new group who is interested in trying Pendragon, and I'm not all to familiar with it (it always seems to happen that I get groups who want to play games I've never ran or played before), but there's some desire to change the setting from an Arthurian one, to the Viking Age, or perhaps the contest of the throne between Harald, Harold, and William, with a more gritty historical take on it, rather than the romanticism of Arthur.
Would it be much work to change things? Would I even really have to change much (the knightly virtues would be one thing I think)? Perhaps there's some source book out there that I could use to aid in things (I'm generally knowledgeable about the time periods at hand, and so on that front I wouldn't need too much really).
For reference, I have managed to get:
Pendragon 5th Edition
The Great Pendragon Campaign
Pendragon Saxons
If you're going for a viking theme, the recent Ice Kingdoms book would be worth a look
Quote from: Psikerlord;976550I love the black adn red flag but otherwise agree
Yeah, the art isn't bad, it's just dull and says nothing about the games. I'll surely buy them as long as finances allow, it I don't think their choices for covers were very inspired. I see the are going for a uniform this-is-a-series look, but they could still have that plus dynamic action instead of "a guy riding a horse for no particular reason and ignoring you as he looks off to the side at nothing." Still, I love Pendragon and would love to see these games when they are available.
Quote from: Dumarest;976563Yeah, the art isn't bad, it's just dull and says nothing about the games. I'll surely buy them as long as finances allow, it I don't think their choices for covers were very inspired. I see the are going for a uniform this-is-a-series look, but they could still have that plus dynamic action instead of "a guy riding a horse for no particular reason and ignoring you as he looks off to the side at nothing." Still, I love Pendragon and would love to see these games when they are available.
They are based on the covers of the Spanish edition.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;976617They are based on the covers of the Spanish edition.
Therefore they're good? :confused:
Psycho was a shot-for-shot remake of
Psycho, too...
Quote from: Dumarest;976717Therefore they're good? :confused:
Psycho was a shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, too...
Therefore they weren't commissioned as a seperate thing by Nocturnal. The whole design was brought over, including internal layout, because it was deemed to be more attractive than the current edition.
The internal art is pretty excellent I think.
It does look stunning, though I'm sad to hear it won't have year-by-year play in the style of the Great Pendragon Campaign. That would have been awesome.
Quote from: RPGPundit;977243It does look stunning, though I'm sad to hear it won't have year-by-year play in the style of the Great Pendragon Campaign. That would have been awesome.
I've contemplated using the Royal Frankish Annals and Nithard's Histories (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0472061860/) as a guide to do such. Never got past the "that could work" stage.
I had considered, for some while, converting Pendragon to run an Imperial Roman campaign.
Quote from: RPGPundit;978029I had considered, for some while, converting Pendragon to run an Imperial Roman campaign.
Yep, that'd work. The Equestrian order of Rome were essentially knights.
The Ancient Greece idea might work too, although I do wonder whether the standard, medieval style combat style in the classic Pendragon mode actually matches the lighter armoured style of Hoplites. I think they'd have to modify it so it didn't rely on armour rolls.
What else?
EDIT: Actually, a very important 'what else?' is a new updated edition of The Great Pendragon Campaign, in the same Spanish format and with an included index.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;978034EDIT: Actually, a very important 'what else?' is a new updated edition of The Great Pendragon Campaign, in the same Spanish format and with an included index.
What would need updating?
Quote from: RPGPundit;978998What would need updating?
The Book of Uther period, was updated in a supplement and added an extra five years to the timeline.
In the case of the Index, it was actually edited out along with the NPC Characters booklet because they had page number limitations. I'd like to see them included in any new edition.