Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912037From what I've read of nWoD, I still think mixing monsters hampers and dilutes more than it adds or enhances.

Indeed. Thematically it doesn't make much sense. Each game has it's own struggles and enemies.

Btw, has anyone read the Dark Era's book? I bet it's a big tome with a humongous amount of background info and a shitload of story seeds, which I never know what to do with it. Well, that's the reason I don't play wod anymore, despite liking a lot of the ideas it brings to the table.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;911627Has anyone ever actually run Promethean or Wraith? I have a hard time believing most groups would go for either one even with extensive house-ruling and doing end runs around their most inconvenient elements.

I ran Wraith: The Oblivion with no problems whatsoever. It was a fun little game. Dont now anything about the nwod iteration.

I read Promethean. I cant imagine why it'd be harder to run than anything else, as long as the players understand the premise from the outset. But thats generally the case for any game.

Promethean just got a second edition.  It is on Drive Thru RPG and people are complaining of its lack of quality.

Quote from: Snowman0147;912222Promethean just got a second edition.  It is on Drive Thru RPG and people are complaining of its lack of quality.

*looks at reviews*
Wow, the book uses those awful gender neutral pronouns (zhe, zir, zhey) in it. People are actually going forward and compromising their professional general audience work with this stuff. I'm reminded of those true believers who lost money making Esperanto films.

Does anyone know if the only problems with the 2nd edition are a few typos and the cringey virtue signalling?

Quote from: TristramEvans;912074I read Promethean. I cant imagine why it'd be harder to run than anything else, as long as the players understand the premise from the outset. But thats generally the case for any game.

You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?  

Sure, and a game where you play the victim in a locked room murder mystery isn't hard to run if the player 'gets' the premise too. Why not?  I mean... if the only things your players like to do is beat off hordes of pitchfork and torch mobs in teh middle of a post apocalyptic wasteland (cleveland), then sure... promethean is easy to run as written!   Or if they like sitting in the middle of antarctica, alone, bemoaning their fate in poetic verse while wearing way too much eyeliner... easy!

Quote from: Spike;912252You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?

Doesn't it take a while to set in though? I read Promethean a while back but don't recall the specifics. It seemed like Disquiet encouraged a nomadic campaign of short acqaintances... kind of like the old Incredible Hulk TV show.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912228*looks at reviews*
Wow, the book uses those awful gender neutral pronouns (zhe, zir, zhey) in it. People are actually going forward and compromising their professional general audience work with this stuff. I'm reminded of those true believers who lost money making Esperanto films.

Does anyone know if the only problems with the 2nd edition are a few typos and the cringey virtue signalling?

I was referring to the typos and poor downloads that don't work.  Still what you said is pretty valid.

Quote from: SimlasaDoesn't it take a while to set in though? I read Promethean a while back but don't recall the specifics. It seemed like Disquiet encouraged a nomadic campaign of short acqaintances... kind of like the old Incredible Hulk TV show.

Disquiet can take a while or immediately turn people against you. There are many rolls and modifiers involved. The wasteland effect is more predictable and gradual, so if you don't ever linger more than a few days anywhere it doesn't matter. The game does everything it can to keep you on the move, so yes, the Hulk comparison is apt.

Quote from: Snowman0147;912303I was referring to the typos and poor downloads that don't work.  Still what you said is pretty valid.

Have you looked at the 2nd edition personally? Do you know what they've changed?

Quote from: Spike;912252You can't imagine how a game where every character creates a blighted wasteland for miles around themselves and turns every hand against them wouldn't be a problem to run so long as the players get the premise?  

No, I really don't. The blighted wasteland happens if the characters try to settle in one spot. The"every hand against them" is the aggression of angry mobs and ostracisation from humanity. Neither of which preclude many entertaining games if thats a premise someone is interested in.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912304Have you looked at the 2nd edition personally? Do you know what they've changed?

I am broke so I don't know what is in the book other than what people are already saying which is why I am not making a judgment call on it.  I am just saying what people had said in that drive thru page.

Quote from: TristramEvans;912305No, I really don't. The blighted wasteland happens if the characters try to settle in one spot. The"every hand against them" is the aggression of angry mobs and ostracisation from humanity. Neither of which preclude many entertaining games if thats a premise someone is interested in.

Stop gladhanding your players, then. There is a massage parlour down the street.


Seriously though: You have a game where the players can't have a base of operations (which even dungeon delving nameless murderhobos seem to like setting up), and they can't interact with anyone other than eachother, session after session, and you don't see how that limits your game play and might be a problem for groups?  

No stable area to play in, the GM and the players have to constantly work out new geography. No friendly NPCs, or even neutral NPCs really.  No colorful cast of characters, just surly people trying to pitchfork them at every turn, or fellow monsters trying to harvest their alchemical souls for power?    

"Wadda we doin' tonight, brain?"

"Same thing we do every night, we drive our stolen cars a hundred miles, set up a camp int eh middle of nowhere adn wait for either the blight to set in, or hte locals to know we're there and run us off. Then we do it again next session. Hopefully the 'not-angels' don't show up in mid session to steal our souls...again"

"Oooh... sounds like fun. Can't wait!"





All kidding aside, the rules literally (Because they are written down, get it?) are designed to prevent stability of geography and a near total absence of friendly NPCs.  That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for interesting game play.  You almost HAVE to play as murderhobos... only interested in who is trying to kill you this time so you know the best way to kill them back before you move on to the next fight.  Only, you know, all depressing and shit about it.  

Since I'm pretty sure the designers weren't doing, deliberately, an inverse set up* of the very worst (or best, whatever) style of D&D play, then I can say they actually failed to design the game they set out to make.  








* D&D murderhobos kill everyone because they have no character, and people are just walking bags of loot and XP. Promethean Murderhobos kill everyone because they have TOO MUCH character, and people view them as walking bags of loot and XP.... I mean, pretentious twats and sources of alchemical fire.

Quote from: Spike;912335Stop gladhanding your players, then. There is a massage parlour down the street.

I have no idea what you're on about.

QuoteSeriously though: You have a game where the players can't have a base of operations (which even dungeon delving nameless murderhobos seem to like setting up),

Yes, that is the premise. You seem to be operating from a set of assumptions base on the very specific people you've played with? I've never had "base of operations" be a priority for any group of players that I can recall outside of a superhero game. Promethean aside, many games I've run and played in have involved characters constantly wandering, travelling, or otherwise "on the go".

Quoteand they can't interact with anyone other than each other, session after session, and you don't see how that limits your game play and might be a problem for groups?

Who said they can't interact with anyone? Have you actually read Promethean? And sure, its a limit. Every game has limits unless you're playing "dimension-hopping godlings". And sure some groups wouldn't want to play the game. That's true of every game, ever. There's nothing especial about Promethean or Wraith in that regard. The games present a specific premise. That premise appeals to some gamers, and does not to others. I've no idea why that would befuddle you? You cannot concieve of players that the premise would appeal to? We're not exactly talking about Maid or FATAL here. These games represent pretty standard archetypal situations and premises in fantasy and horror fiction.

In addition to the Incredible Hulk I can also see a Promethean campaign as bearing some resemblance to the old series Carnivale... a collection of freaks and geeks, shunned by the outside world... travelling about with various intermixing and complications. A sort of hobo/gypsy Odyssey. Also a bit of Clive Barker's 'Cabal' mythology with Midian as the promised land for such outsiders.

Totally viable gaming premise IMO.

My group played Wraith back in the day, the Storyteller was very enthusiastic about the game. We actually had a very regular game of it going for a while, focused on doing missions for the various factions and seeing if we could keep our noses above water. It was a small player group (myself and one other), and that worked much better. But damn was it dark and hopeless. I tended to use Wraith as a sourcebook for my own Mage games rather than to run it myself. I never touched Promethean - the reviews in my local community were unanimous: unplayable.

Wraith is a beautiful setting and is a wonderful read. Actually playing it takes some effort, though. One problem I didn't expect (but probably should have) is that there is too much going on, and you have to focus on just a little of it. There are spectres, and the guilds, and the legion , and the Hierarchy, and the Renegades, and the Heretics, and regular wraiths, and then you also have each of the PCs with their own stories to tell, both in life (which is still important to them), and what they do in death, and then on top of that each PC has a shadow with its own motivation. You really have to pare down the plot threads to what you want to deal with or else a kudzu plot takes over and you never get any one thing resolved*.

One rules-wise change I would make is this: make virtually nothing do aggravated damage. There is so much stuff that will just kill your ghost (*ahem*), that it's easy never to see anyone's shadow, or care about their fetters since they won't be reappearing at them, or care about their backstory or motivations since they're just going to die to a random spectre claws.

*Which you really want to happen, especially if that plot thread relates to a PCs transcendence. As grim-dark as the setting seems, there is actually a reasonable chance of achieving the games 'victory conditions.' Certainly in comparison to like Vampire, where Galconda or whatever exists, but really only in theory and won't happen to your PC without strong GM intervention.