Quote from: obrynDo you really see this as substantially simpler than 3.5?

1d20 plus WR, opposed roll, success means you grab, big success means you can go all the way to pin... Yes. Much simpler.

Quote from: beeberso who's the vorlons, and who's the shadows?

My wife plays both roles, depending on the time of the month.

Ba-dum-bum!

Please don't tell her I said that until next Tuesday...

Quote from: Cab1d20 plus WR, opposed roll, success means you grab, big success means you can go all the way to pin... Yes. Much simpler.

Calculating that wrestling roll is much more complex, and distinguishing "success" from "big success" is another layer of complexity. It's familiarity masquerading as simplicity.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineCalculating that wrestling roll is much more complex, and distinguishing "success" from "big success" is another layer of complexity. It's familiarity masquerading as simplicity.

It isn't. Its a very simple formula that can be used for all things from group wrestling, to grabbing someone who is wielding a weapon (and what happens when they sqing at you)... I'm familiar with both systems, and I can say with confidence that I have never seen a DM or group of players in classic D&D (Companion level or RC) fail to comprehend grappling, whereas I've never known a group of 3e or 3.5e players who all understand how it operates in their game.

The auto-pin thing is an optional rule added on to WR in classic, if you beat the other guy by a certain amount. Again, not complex. Go get an RC and read it.

Quote from: CabBriefly, every character has a wrestling rating. You get that by adding half level, rounding up, add your strength and dex bonuses (or penalties) and your unmodified armour class (9 for no armour, 7 for leather armour, 5 for chain armour, etc. Less armour you have for wrestling the better, magical armour counted at its base value ignoring AC). Roll 1d20, add your WR, compare that to your opponents roll + WR.

If your opponent chooses not to wrestle and just hits you, obviously you've got no weapons in your hand, no shield, you're easier to hit (bear in mind that this works alongside weapon mastery, which gives significant defensive bonuses to weapons). However, he doesn't get to ad WR to his roll, so he is easier to grab. You have four states in wrestling, free, grab, take down, pin, with more penalties associated with each. When you have pinned your foe you get to inflict damage.

Theres more to it than that (wrestling monsters, wrestling groups, impact on initiative, weapon mastery in wrestling, mystics (monks), etc.), but the bare bones are as described. Dead easy system, works fine. Obviously you'd have to do armour class the other way round (say, add 10-armour class rating of the armour), but it wouldn't take much fiddling with to make it work very, very well.

Am I reading your writeup correctly?  At similar levels, a wizard (who's unarmored and very possibly unarmed) will tend to be a much better wrestler than a fighter in armor?

-O

Quote from: obrynAm I reading your writeup correctly?  At similar levels, a wizard (who's unarmored and very possibly unarmed) will tend to be a much better wrestler than a fighter in armor?

Depends. By the book, fighters get a +1 bonus to WR, they're also likely to have better physical stats, and they've got more weapon mastery slots which they can (if they choose) spend on becoming better wrestlers. But yes, grappling is much easier by that system if you're unarmored. Makses sense, don't you think?

I should add that by the time a mage has made full use of being unarmoured and got hold of the fighter, he's usually been cut to ribbons.

Quote from: CabDepends. By the book, fighters get a +1 bonus to WR, they're also likely to have better physical stats, and they've got more weapon mastery slots which they can (if they choose) spend on becoming better wrestlers. But yes, grappling is much easier by that system if you're unarmored. Makses sense, don't you think?

Not really... Being nimble and whatnot is pretty minor when you compare it to combat training.  Also, in general weight (including armor) works to your advantage in these situations.

It seems like a silly system.

-O

Quote from: CabIt isn't. Its a very simple formula that can be used for all things from group wrestling, to grabbing someone who is wielding a weapon (and what happens when they sqing at you)... I'm familiar with both systems, and I can say with confidence that I have never seen a DM or group of players in classic D&D (Companion level or RC) fail to comprehend grappling, whereas I've never known a group of 3e or 3.5e players who all understand how it operates in their game.

The auto-pin thing is an optional rule added on to WR in classic, if you beat the other guy by a certain amount. Again, not complex. Go get an RC and read it.

The first edition of D&D I ever played was RC. It was fiddly then, and it hasn't gotten any less fiddly through the passage of time.

Quote from: obrynNot really... Being nimble and whatnot is pretty minor when you compare it to combat training.  Also, in general weight (including armor) works to your advantage in these situations.

It seems like a silly system.

-O

Try wrestling in a thick leather jacket. It doesn't help. If you can get on top of the guy then sure, extra weight is good, but if you're restricted for movement before that then your chance of getting hold and taking the other guy down is lessened.

And yes, being trained does help a lot. If you choose for your fighter to be trained in wrestling he'll have a clear advantage; if you choose instead for him to train with a sword he'll probably cut the mage in two before the mage gets hold of him.

Really, go read the wrestling system in classic D&D. Its simple, it works, and in years and years of playtesting the only time I've seen it fall down is when you try to extend it past the four-versus-one wrestling that its designed for. It does what it is designed to do.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe first edition of D&D I ever played was RC. It was fiddly then, and it hasn't gotten any less fiddly through the passage of time.

The RC isn't an edition of D&D, its a compendium of rules from the four BECM boxed sets with some additions from the gazetteers. It isn't designed to introduce you to D&D, its designed as a reference manual for experienced players. I'm not surprised you found that a fiddly introduction, you had the wrong product.

Quote from: CabTry wrestling in a thick leather jacket. It doesn't help. If you can get on top of the guy then sure, extra weight is good, but if you're restricted for movement before that then your chance of getting hold and taking the other guy down is lessened.

Um...  I've grappled with guys in heavy leather armor and chainmail, though less so with plate.  (Chain and hardened leather hurt quite enough, thank you.)  Really, it didn't slow 'em down any.

QuoteReally, go read the wrestling system in classic D&D. Its simple, it works, and in years and years of playtesting the only time I've seen it fall down is when you try to extend it past the four-versus-one wrestling that its designed for. It does what it is designed to do.

Yes, I know that RC/BECMI is the best game EVAR.  Personally, I think the 3.5 grappling rules do a great job of emulating wrestling without adding too much complexity.  They keep the melee combatants strong, the non-physical characters weak, and have feats to create a lot more options for determined wrestlers.  Of all the subsystems of 3.5, I find it one of the easiest to deal with.  (I have a much larger gripe about complex spell descriptions, fiddly Conditions, and wacky things like Polymorph.)

-O

Quote from: CabThe RC isn't an edition of D&D, its a compendium of rules from the four BECM boxed sets with some additions from the gazetteers. It isn't designed to introduce you to D&D, its designed as a reference manual for experienced players. I'm not surprised you found that a fiddly introduction, you had the wrong product.

See, Pseudo?  It's your fault, man!

RC D&D is perfect!  It's you who are flawed, for using a rule book as both the rules and instruction manual for a game!

-O

Quote from: obrynUm...  I've grappled with guys in heavy leather armor and chainmail, though less so with plate.  (Chain and hardened leather hurt quite enough, thank you.)  Really, it didn't slow 'em down any.

Then you clearly didn't make the most of your unencumbered advantage

QuoteYes, I know that RC/BECMI is the best game EVAR.

Get over yourself. I've suggested using Wrestling Rating because the OP asked for a fix, and I've put it forward as a good fix for 3rd ed grappling; it isn't the best unarmed combat system, but it is one that would solve the issue at hand.

Quote from: obrynSee, Pseudo?  It's your fault, man!

RC D&D is perfect!  It's you who are flawed, for using a rule book as both the rules and instruction manual for a game!

-O

You have some kind of issue here. Deal with it.

The RC is a compendium of rules, its a handy reference guide, but as an introduction to D&D it sucks. It wasn't intended to be that.

Quote from: CabI suggested using Wrestling Rating because the OP asked for a fix, and I've put it forward as a good fix for 3rd ed grappling; it isn't the best unarmed combat system, but it is one that would solve the issue at hand.

You see, the thing is - at every conversation point, your solution is to use RC D&D.  It gets a little repetitive.  And then, when someone else says they don't like it, you assert it's their problem, and not a flaw in the game.  Either they lack the creativity, or did something wrong, or can't see the brilliance.

Get new material.

-O